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Hello. Ok, so here i am primarily building this list to be competitive (for what orcs can be) and a smidge of fun to play. As i am fairly new to orcs I have some options questions along the way. Ideally I want them all in combat as soon as possible to minimize animosity rolls, so they will steam forward as quickly as possible. Also any other suggestions you have would be great. Thanks!!

Edit: I should also add i will be playing a lot of wood elves, high elves and skaven

*NEW LIST BELOW

Lords:
Lvl 4 Great shaman w/ shrunken head - 255pts (attached to big'uns)
Black Orc Warboss w/ sword of might, enchanted shield, tali of endurance - 250pts (attached to black orcs)
Savage Orc Warboss w/ add' HW, Armour of Destiny, Tali of Preservation - 248pts (attached to big'uns)
Black Orc Big Boss w/ razor BSB, shield - 162pts (attached to black orcs)
*Here mainly i want to know if they are kitted ok. shaman is kitted to survive while launching spells, black orc and savage warbosses are balanced to survive and hurt things. Should i be more focused on one role more than balanced? any help would be great.

Core:
33 Savage Big'uns w/ FC, big stabba, add' HWs - 418pts
30 Savage Orcs w/ FC, big stabba, add' HWs - 325pts
*Thoughts on spears? if so, which unit? both? ive gotten mixed reviews on them, id like to hear what you have to say.

Special:
28 Black Orcs w/ FC, Shield, Razor Standard - 399pts
*Are the shields worth it? And with the warboss making them stubborn plus the BSB, are they better placed on my flank for defense? or in the middle to maximize the BSB effectiveness?

Rare:
Doom Diver
Doom Diver
6 Stone Trolls
*Stone trolls or marsh trolls? I dont see much need for the marsh trolls as the terrain is pretty basic.

2487pts total

*NEW LIST BELOW

You don't need armour of destiny and talisman of preservation on same character. I shy away from giving black Orc character magic weapons so they keep the versatility of choosing their weapon options. The shaman needs to be savage Orc to use lucky shrunken head, I am assuming that's what you meant. You have razor standard listed twice. Just give it to black orcs and take some more protective magic items on the bsb.

New List. I like it more. seems more versatile. Tell me what you think!

Lords:
Lvl 4 SO Shaman w/ shrunken head - 255pts (goes with Big'uns)
SO Warboss w/ Add' HW, Sword of Strife, Armor of Destiny - 243pts (goes with Big'uns)

Heros:
BO Big Boss w/ BSB, Dragonhelm, Tali of Endurance - 155pts (goes with black orcs)

Core:
33 SO Big'uns w/ FC, Big Stabba, Add' HW - 418pts
30 Savage Orcs w/ FC, Big Stabba, Add' HW - 325pts

Special:
29 Black Orcs w/ FC, Razor Standard - 428pts
5 SO Boar Riders w/ Spear&Shield - 110pts
5 SO Boar Riders w/ Spear&Shield - 110pts
Orc Boar Chariot w/ 2 crew, - 85pts
3 Trolls
3 Trolls

Rare:
DoomDiver
DoomDiver

2499pts

You need more chaff. Pump wagons, manglers, wolf riders, Cowboys, wolf chariots.


And of course, two rock lobbas.

hmm... yeah. how about this. since the riders are just chaff anyway. I can make them 3 units of 5 spider riders, and for cheaper. also i switched up my leader roles a bit. i figure run both units of trolls close to the BO warboss to keep them from being to useless, and make decent lil SO big boss beat stick. alittle something like this. though im not sure about the leaders, i would prefer to keep the previous setup of bosses, but this way keeps my trolls in line a lot more easily. Also, are rock lobbas an absolute must?

Lords:
Lvl 4 SO Shaman w/ shrunken head - 255pts (goes with Big'uns)
BO War Boss w/ armour of silvered steel, tali of preservation - 250pts (goes with black orcs)

Heros:
SO Big Boss w/ BSB, sword of might, tali of endurance - 150pts (goes with big'uns)
Lvl 1 Shaman w/ dispel scroll, tali of protection - 105pts (goes with savage orcs)

Core:
34 SO Big'uns w/ FC, Big Stabba, Add' HW - 429pts
29 Savage Orcs w/ FC, Big Stabba, Add' HW - 316pts
5 Goblin Wolf Riders w/ spear and shield - 60pts
5 Goblin Wolf Riders w/ spear and shield - 60pts
5 Goblin Wolf Riders w/ spear and shield - 60pts

Special:
29 Black Orcs w/ FC, Razor Standard - 428pts
Orc Boar Chariot w/ 2 crew, - 85pts
3 Trolls
3 Trolls

Rare:
DoomDiver
DoomDiver

2498pts

You will always want a bsb. The rerolls are way too important especially in savage builds. Furthermore you will want your BO characters in your savage mobs. The reason for this is quell animosity, which helps prevent you from losing control of your army at a critical juncture.

I also think that at this time, ballistic skill based shooting is very important. Consider taking bows on your regular savages. A block shooty orcs can help clear out enemy fast cav and chaff drops help prevent your combat blocks from being redirected. You can even consider adding a gobbo bsb with the spider banner and your archers can threaten most monsters (even more so with the poison little waaagh spell). This is especially useful against flying monsters like elf Phoenix who are very difficult to pin down in a charge.

When running Savages always take an obsidion talisman on one of your characters. The magic resistance gives you a 2++ vs most damaging magic, notably death snipes. Ignoring things like conflagration is always nice too.

Sorry, the big boss is a BSB. i edited the correction.

Needs two rock lobbas. Competitive orcs are a gunline. You need the doom divers and rock lobbas at a minimum. Also. A lot of chaff. I ran, two minimal archer blocks, 2 wolf chariots, 2 manglers, and minimal wolf rider units.

I'll be curious to see what the new magic rules bring to O&G.
Having every orc wizard knowing both Brain Bursta and 'ead Butt, Orcs just became a powerful snipe lore.
You're opponent is going to have to save dice/scroll to stop the Foot, and that leaves you with some nasty character sniping abilities.

@HawaiiMatt: How much dispell dice do you get? Seems to me like it is unlimited amount, just limited to how much you can use to dispel per spell. Also makes it difficult to cast big spells as you aren't guaranteed to be able to use 5-6 dice

A few things:

- the Savage Great Shaman could use a little more protection. Fencer's Blades + Shrunken Head + Obsidian Trinket is the most common load-out. WS10 T5 5(4)+ is one tough Wizard!

- Black Orc characters aren't really worth their points.
The only time you want to upgrade is if the character is going into a non-Black Orc unit, to Quell Animosity. That's why the typical Savagestar build includes a Black Orc BSB.

- not sure if you need another block of Savages, honestly. Arrer Boys or a block or two of Night Goblins would probably serve you better.

- I'd get shortbows on those Wolves.

- Black Orcs are not the most competitive choice. Neither are Boar Chariots. I'd go with Wolf Chariots and Spear Chukkas.

- in my experience, Trolls do best in units of 18, 9, 6, and 1.

- Mangler Squigs are highly competitive. 2 of them are all but an auto-include.

Pretty much what warp said, though I'd add units of 8 to the list of useful troll units.

I'm wondering about Arrer's with the new magic rules.
Multiple gifts of the spider god could make massed arrers useful. A block of 60 (decent in combat) will spit out 40 poison shots (poison 5+) and then 30 S4 poison attacks in combat (again, poison 5+).

-Matt

Something more like this?

Lords:
Warboss w/ sword of stife, armour of destiny, potion of speed - 210pts (goes with big'uns)
Lvl 4 SO Great Shaman w/ fencer blades, lucky shrunken head - 290pts (goes with big'uns)

Heros:
BO Big Boss w/ BSB, armour of fortune - 152pts (goes with black orcs)
Goblin shaman w/ dispel scroll, giant wolf - 92pts (goes with goblin riders)

Core:
38 SO Big'uns w/ FC, Big stabba, Add' HW - 473pts
30 Arrer Boyz w/ FC - 240pts
5 Goblin Wolf Riders w/ bows - 55pts
5 Goblin Wolf Riders w/ bows - 55pts
5 Goblin Wolf Riders w/ bows - 55pts

Special:
34 Black Orcs w/ FC - 443pts
Goblin Chariot
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Troll
Troll

Rare:
Doom Diver
Doom Diver
Rock Lobba

2500pts

Not quite.

Put the Orc Warboss in with the Black Orcs. Put the Black Orc Big Boss in with the Savages.
That way, you'll have two big blocks that are immune to animosity. There is basically no reason to pay the premium on a Black Orc character and then stick that character in with Black Orcs.

There's also no reason to pay the extra points for the Armour of Fortune versus the Talisman of Endurance on a Black Orc character; they already have heavy armour.
Though I'd try to go with a Charmed Shield and a Talsiman of Preservation, if possible.

Single Trolls are pretty nice chaff, but I'd get Manglers in there first.

The Arrer Boyz are a solid choice, but also consider that 40 Night Goblins with full command, Nets, short bows, and a Fanatic cost 220pts.

I think that Goblin Wolf Riders with spears have their uses, too. Such as against war machines.

Just food for thought, 40 vanilla goblins w shields n bows with a vanilla gobbos bsb w the spider banner is hella scary. at least I've had incredible tournament success with it. nasty skulkars are great protection against stuff like chaos knights and they give your unit a few asf armor piercing attacks as well. easily worth their points n for a gobbo war boss with a GW just for some punch and ld. in my orc army those goblins inflict more dmg than my black orcs and my savage star almost combined. not to mention you can always telephone them into better position or rear charges as well with your lvl 4 should he get hand of fork

cheers!
Mike


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for what it's worth goblins have crap leadership but the wolf riders are fast as he'll. put the in a unit of 10 and you have a really fast rather effective backfield unit without having to worry about losing the whole unit cause one dies and they panic themselves useless.

also a decent build for a war boss is destiny armor and bashes Axe. it makes him capable of melting guys with an Armour save (remember magic weapons do not benefit from magic banners) and it keeps him swinging like a truck after the first round

Um. A few things:

-- the Spider Banner can be good, and it can be okay, and it can be awful. For me, I don't want to risk losing my BSB in an army of already dubious Leadership to that one Death-snipe that went through, or in combat.
People always tell me how they just fill out the front rank with characters/command (and Skulkers, if they're not Night Goblins), but that means you're running your unit less than 10-wide, which means less shooting, which is the whole point for taking the Spider Banner in the first place.

-- Night Goblins have Netters, which make them a better tar pit. They're also a bit cheaper. They might not be able to rock short bows and the 5+/6+ of regular Goblins, but -1S in most rounds is going to have a similar effect as that extra bit of armour, and for less points.
That said, regular Goblins stand a better chance of actually winning combat in the first round or so. Skulkers can soak a decent number of attacks each, and don't offer much in the way of CR. What I'm fond of doing is taking a block of 30. Big enough to soak some damage and shoot at stuff, if needed, but not so huge and unwieldy that I can't teleport them into a flank. With Sneaky Stabbing, it's not hard to rack up quite a bit of CR with those Skulkers, plus the static CR from your ranks, charge, flank, and standard, all while disrupting the enemy and offering them very few opportunities to stack up their own kills.

-- ...but to say that 40 Goblins with poisoned bows do more damage than two big blocks of elite Orcs is either silliness, or a testament to tremendous luck.

-- why would you want Wolf Riders in a unit of 10 over 5? If they loose one model, they no longer disrupt the enemy.
With 5 models, you need to suffer 2 casualties before you test for Panic. With 10, you need to suffer 3. Not much of a difference.
I'd much rather have two separate units to pepper my enemy with arrows and threaten war machines and die horribly when it suits me. It takes more of my opponents resources to take out two small units than it does one big one.

-- I've seen units of 10-15 Wolf Riders, though. With a few characters in them. These units do have their uses. But there's always a unit or two of 5, as well.

-- ...how do magic weapons not benefit from magic banners?

I'm not going to argue against you on most of your poi ts they are valid I'm just simply saying the poison banner offers great support for very cheap. it's not necessary tremendous luck it's the simple fact that shooting that many times let's say at chaos warriors or monsters rocking 3 or 4 plus saves. having to make 5-7 saves from poison and the odd arrow will rack up some dmg faster than most expect is what I'm saying. and I don't say run a bunch of characters the skulkars are there to help the warboss is there for some punch and the bsb makes Te rest of the goblins useful.

Under magic banners in the brb it states no banners can confer added effects to magic weapons

The 100 goblin archers list works. Especially with the 5+ poison spell. You need that level 4 orc mage though. That dude in the savages is a 1+ for any competitive army.

100 percent on the lvl 4 savage hammer mage

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
100 percent on the lvl 4 savage hammer mage

It's more of a mop up unit than an actual hammer.

No I'm just talkin about the wizard himself. fists of gork will have him swinging 6 times at ws 10 and str 8(9)

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
I'm not going to argue against you on most of your poi ts they are valid I'm just simply saying the poison banner offers great support for very cheap.

Leaving my BSB defenseless is a high price to pay.
But I do see what you're saying; a Goblin Big Boss, however equipped, isn't exactly hard to get rid of, if your opponent is determined.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
it's not necessary tremendous luck it's the simple fact that shooting that many times let's say at chaos warriors or monsters rocking 3 or 4 plus saves. having to make 5-7 saves from poison and the odd arrow will rack up some dmg faster than most expect is what I'm saying.

Let's see. 100 Goblin Archers, deployed, say 20-wide, is 70 shots using Volley Fire. So that's a huge unit that hasn't moved. At all. And has a range of 18". So, odds are, you're going to get one turn each for long range, short range, and a Stand and Shoot! reaction. And we'll assume you're somehow always casting Gift of the Spider God (...you won't be, but whatever):

Long range-- 23.3 hits (all Poison), 7.8 wounds after saves.
Short range-- 35 hits (23.3 Poison), 27.2 wounds, 9.1 after saves.
Stand and shoot-- 13.3 hits (all Poison), 4.4 wounds after saves.

So...it's pretty good. If you're facing enemy infantry. And don't have to move around too much, and can get that spell off. If either of those last two things aren't there, your efficiency is cut in half or more. If you're facing off against cavalry or enemy missile troops, you're probably screwed. And it's for a 400+ point unit.
Just look out for Dwellers, Final Transmutation, and Purple Sun.
I can see how it can be pretty awesome. It's just so All-Or-Nothing for my tastes, I guess.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
and I don't say run a bunch of characters the skulkars are there to help the warboss is there for some punch and the bsb makes Te rest of the goblins useful.

What I meant is that you need to force their BSB into the second rank, to keep him safe. Regular Goblins can use Skulkers and command models. Night Goblins have to use commanders and Big/War Bosses. If you don't find some way to get your BSB into the second rank, though...why would your opponent not just kill him right there? Gotta' keep that guy safe. So your options are to run Skuklers/characters/command and reform the unit down to a smaller frontage before you get charged, which reduces your shooting. Or you can run the unit super wide and stick the BSB on the corner...but then your whole army pretty much revolves around your missile "Deathstar" that has a 18" range and either moves and loses almost half of it's shooting, or just sits there and gets avoided.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
Under magic banners in the brb it states no banners can confer added effects to magic weapons

...where? I see no such thing.

short bows are 18 inch range and it's not a death star simply a support block with a little but of CR helpers like the boss and skulkars. and I didn't say 100 I said 40 it gives lots of shot and enough staying reliability in combat that someone can help them

orcs telephone you its if you need to move them.

magic banners right before item list i believe


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just saying I ran in the last tour y I was in the 40 goblin block along with 30 savages lvl 4 fencers. 35 black orc with warboss , and it seemed to work pretty darn good.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
short bows are 18 inch range

Heh. Oops. That's not the first time I've done that. I think "18is 6 less than 24", and the 6 gets stuck in my head. Edited above.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
and it's not a death star simply a support block with a little but of CR helpers like the boss and skulkars. and I didn't say 100 I said 40 it gives lots of shot and enough staying reliability in combat that someone can help them

I'm responding to thedarkavenger's post as well; the 100 Goblin Archers + Spider Banner is a gimmick that has surface in one list and another.

Again. Not saying it's terrible. I just think it has more weaknesses than it does strengths. I'd rather the BSB be tough than grant a mediocre unit a special ability. That's why the idea of sticking him with 100 Goblins is more appealing; if you're going to risk losing your Leadership re-rolls in an army that already has issues with Leadership, you might as well capitalize on that risk. And, once you have a unit that either (a) costs a large portion of your points or (b) your tactics revolve around it's use, I'll call it a Deathstar.
So, no, 40 Goblins with the Spider Banner and a Warboss is not a Deathstar. But it is a unit that costs over 400pts. And I'm still not convince that it's worth putting your BSB in the line of fire. Especially if you're also running the Savagestar (which, if you're playing competitive O&G, you are); avoiding that one bad Animosity roll is better than Poisoned arrows. And a T5 4+/4+ BSB is better than a Goblin.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
orcs telephone you its if you need to move them.

At which point you're at -1 to Hit and can't Volley Fire.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
magic banners right before item list i believe

Can you quote it, here? I'm looking at the Magic Items chapter. I see nothing of the sort.

Fair enough I do see where your coming from on the bsb. personally I haven't had trouble in tourney or casual play keeping him alive, and out of trouble. again comes down to play style I guess I'll swap defence for a little more punch

so I can't find it either on the magic banner, could've swore I read that but I obviously misread somewhere. my humblest apologies lol

Hand of Gork on a unit with bows happens during the magic phase. Not movement. Move, is not even mentioned in the spell. I don't believe there are any shooting restrictions when this is done.

It doesn't have the "this unit counts as having moved" bit? I've just come to expect it in all the different bonus movement spells and effects.
Of course, even if you can teleport them without reducing their potential, I'd still question where you're putting down a block of that size. There's the simple matter of space to consider, and then enemy charge-arcs, and then the target selection it offers you.
Still. Hand of Gork may have just gotten way better in my head.

Warpsolution wrote:
It doesn't have the "this unit counts as having moved" bit? I've just come to expect it in all the different bonus movement spells and effects.
Of course, even if you can teleport them without reducing their potential, I'd still question where you're putting down a block of that size. There's the simple matter of space to consider, and then enemy charge-arcs, and then the target selection it offers you.
Still. Hand of Gork may have just gotten way better in my head.

In all fairness, HoGork on a shooty unit won't affect too much as you're relying on sixes for poison most of the time.

It will matter a ton if you've got a block of 100, and you can't Volley Fire. That's cutting your shots almost in half.

Warpsolution wrote:
It will matter a ton if you've got a block of 100, and you can't Volley Fire. That's cutting your shots almost in half.

True. I think 100 is OTT though. 50 in a 25*2 is more than enough.