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From the Murderfang thread, and a few other threads in the past, a question sprang into my mind:

At what point does your army become dependent on a single unit? Or, how much support is too much support for a single unit?

It's a bit of a variant on the Death Star idea. In a Death Star unit, you have X amount of points tied up into one "package" of special characters, a unit, maybe a transport. Something like Belieal for his 100+ points, a Librarian in Terminator Armor with him (another 100+ points), a unit of Deathwing Terminators, all riding in a tricked out Land Raider. Total points: Over 600! Or thereabouts. When running a Death Star, the rest of your army plays a support role for it. Death Stars are typically full of Special Characters, some kind of important rule combo, and are all but unstoppable unless the opposing army has it's own Death Star or perfect foil for your Death Star.

Sometimes, we really, really want a unit to work. For example, Murderfang, one of the Space Wolves character Dreadnaughts. He has OK stats, same AV as other Dreads, and a host of special rules that make him deadly in close combat. The down sides? No way to make him move faster (6"+d6" run...), unless he takes a Drop Pod. AV 12/10. He poses a threat in that if he manages to assault a unit, that unit will pretty much be wiped off the table.

Premise: I really want Murderfang to work- so do I start building my list around getting him into close combat, or do I look at my list, and start thinking tactically how I will get him into close combat? Remember, I really want to use him. Or any other unit, like Sanguinary Guard, or a unit of Veterans, or Deathleaper, or any of a thousand other units in the game that have awesome fluff, or a great model, or whatever, but so-so rules. For Murderfang, I decide to get him a drop pod. But I don't want to bring him in on the first turn- it would result in a blown up Murderfang. So I need more Drop Pods. 1? 2? 3 more? By throwing out a couple drop pods early, I could shape where my opponent reacts over the first couple turns of the game. The turn Murderfang arrives could be rough- like he will have a large target on him. How about a sky shield landing platform? He can be shielded for the turn he comes in, won't scatter, and could be useful for the rest of my army. I'm still concerned that if he comes in on turn 2, there will not be enough threats on the table for my opponent, so how about a unit of Thunderwolves? They could cross the table really quickly, and be threatening my opponent on turn 2. Now my opponent has to decide on focusing on the Thunderwolves, or Murderfang? Or maybe both? So now I need something to take out a possible shooting unit that could kill or destroy the Thunderwolves and Murderfang. How about Long Fangs and missile launchers? I've already taken a fortification, but the Long Fangs need some kind of cover. How about a Rune Priest? I still need to get some Grey Hunters/Blood Claws in their too. Instead of a drop pod, what about an allied Stormraven? That could free up the fortification slot, and I could take an Aegis Defense Line instead for the Long Fangs instead of a Rune Priest. Won't need the Drop Pods anymore, but I think I'll still need something to pressure my opponent the turn the Stormraven/Murderfang arrive. But now I have a flyer with a new set of tactical problems to solve...

How many points is that so far? 800? 1000? Is the list built around one model (Murderfang)? Or can it stand on it's own if Murderfang is taken out? Something to think about while building your next list. What do ya'll think? Is it a good idea to build around a single unit? Do you maximize a single unit's advantages, or do you look for synergy (units that work better together then by themselves)?

 Tamwulf wrote:
Total points: Over 9000!

I wish I could say my brain didnt automatically do this when I read it, but I can't. I need help.


On topic though, if you are going for a WAAC competitive list, then working around "fluffy" units is probably not the way to go most of the time. If you end up taking a lot of powerful units, so that murderfang can be useful, then you can probably run the list without murderfang and replace him with a "normal" unit, and it will be even better. Competitively.

However, I would prefer to run a less competitive list, using units I like, even if it means I end up with a weaker list. 'cos the game is then more fun for me, and I will also enjoy making the models and units more during the building and painting phase.

Everyone should have a showpiece unit or two, a central unit that is the heart of your army. Wether its a captain/warboss that you spent days converting and painting into awesomeness and gave a backstory to, or a vehicle you modified like a dreadnaught stomping on the crushed bodies of your enemies. Thats what makes this game fun.

For some of us, anyway. Others will only ever run the "most powerful list possible" WAAC murderstar lists. These are the people who ran draigostar, and waveserpent spam, and the like. Mostly, they arent fun people to play against. Or to be friends with.

I don't think it's as simple as a points value.

The line, I'd think, is something like this: If you want to include a unit in your army, and you make a decently-balanced army that has a hole in it that is filled by your special unit, it's not being THAT disruptive. It's why most 40k units can be used, regardless of power level.

Likewise, if you're using a unit as the main showpiece of your strategy, I wouldn't count it either. After all, bike lists will tend to have a lot of bikes, and whatever is left will tend to fill the gaps that bikes leave behind.

To me, the way you can tell that a single unit is dragging down the rest of the list is if you spend so many points on the unit, and so many points supporting the unit, that there isn't enough left over, and so you wind up leaving gaps because you can't afford to fill them while also supporting the showpiece unit well enough for it to be as effective as you want it to be.

That said, it's not necessarily a bad thing. If I really, really want to figure out how to make the generally-agreed-as-rubbish unit X work, and I have to twist my list a bit to make it work, well, then what's the problem? Going to the effort to make ogryn work isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if it winds up with a (relatively) fluffy list that's fun to play against.

Indeed, the level of depth to 40k often doesn't support much more than a devotion to a single unit or single strategy. If you're playing a 1500 point game where you have 500 points spent on a single unit (or, say, two copies of the same one), then you're going to have to expect an outsized number of points thrown at whatever else makes that unit actually work properly.

As such, I'd think that something becomes "the" unit as soon as a person thinks that said unit should be said "the" unit and begins to plan the rest of their list accordingly.

Gk lists are built around like 5 dks if thats what you mean?

 total0 wrote:
Gk lists are built around like 5 dks if thats what you mean?

No, what I was trying to say is at what point do you build a "Deathstar" or build an entire army around a single mode/unit?

In Warmachine/Hordes, there are a variety of models that require... help... to make them work. That help comes in the form of certain spells, or buffs (play effects) from other models. Sometimes a great model becomes stupid good with the right help or support from other models. It's a classic list building trap to build your entire list around one model- because all your opponent has to do is break the chain of support models that makes that one model so good. Then you are left with a bunch of models that may not work all that well together (list synergy!).

As list building is so important in 40K, when building a list, you have to consider this idea. When the rough draft of your list is finished, you look it over. Here is where you identify any initial short falls in the list. This is also the perfect time to see if you are building towards a Deathstar list, or if you are including models that need some help.

Let's say I'm planning for a 2000 point game, and after working my list a couple times, I discover a particular unit is close to 300 points, and I have included two other units by themselves that only cost about 100 points, but they have teleport homers to help that 300 point unit deepstrike exactly where I want it to go. I also took an Aegis Defense Line with a Comms relay to help with the Reserve Rolls (70 points) and a Special Character that has a Warlord trait that affects reserves as well (say, another 200 points). I've now spent 300 points on one unit, and an extra 470 points to support that unit. This is where I would start looking at the support elements to figure out if they help the rest of my army. Are there other units that are deepstriking? Do I have a heavy support squad that could benefit from the Aegis Defense Line? What else can that Special Character do?

See what I mean there? Almost 25% of my points are now tied into one unit. That unit better perform well on the table to be worth it, or I need to buff it up even more to make it viable. Or I add other choices to the list to capitalize on the dynamic I'm creating here (reliable deepstrike).

This is something you have to consider when building a list. For me, I go points +1/2, and 25%. In other words, if I have a 300 point unit, and I specifically include other units/upgrades/whatever that total over 150 points for that unit, I either nix that unit altogether or start building my list around what that unit can do. If I'm spending 25% or more of my total points on such a package (like above, in a 2000 point game, if I spend 500+ points on a package), I either scratch the entire package, or start building my list around that package.