Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/12/06 18:05:35
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
We’ve seen a lot of companies look at the history of Japanese nations and their rise on the battlefield but very few companies seem to deal with historical Chinese armies. Watchful I Studios appears to be doing just that however with their first range of miniatures being for both the Chinese Warring States and the Qin Dynasty Period…As you can see they’ve done a lot of work on various heads and body types giving you a range of different options for weapons as well. Spears, Swords, Crossbows, Bows, Shields, and everything in between it seems. There will be both armoured and unarmoured options on the eventual Kickstarter that hopes to fund the production of these in plastic.While of course this is going to be interesting for historical wargamers I now want them to do a whole series of Dynasty Warriors sculpts to go along with them. I would love to see someone bring Lu Bu, Cao Cao and the rest of the cast to the tabletop. It is a mass battle game after all!What do you think? - See more at: http://www.beastsofwar.com/watchful-i-studios/watchful-studios-show-upcoming-chinese-warrior-range/#sthash.dnVNzWqq.dpuf
After decades of fighting games, musou steamrollers, and wuxia movies, my mental image of Ancient China and actual history are on very divergent paths.
Clicked the link, hoping for the usual over-exaggerated weapons, pageantry, and flamboyance and was met with... a dull bunch of dudes marching in armor and with realistic looking gear.
I guess The Tiger of Jiang Dong needs a few million peons to mow down though, right?
These fellows at least look like a step in the right direction towards getting something besides Japan on the tabletop.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Alkemy and Hell Dorado each have some pretty cool fantasy Chinese dudes, but they are restic and metal respectively. With the new Fireforge Mongol kit, there are some cool weapons and head options. Mantic Paladins have swords that could look like monstrous jian in a pinch, and the elven palace guard have dao blades, both sets in restic. For plastic weapons, you could probably make some badass Halberds from GW dark elve spears and/or VC Grave Knights (or whatever they are called).
So, yeah, these give you a good set of mooks and loyal soldiers, with some kickass opportunities to convert heroes.
As for me, I'm kind of committed now to a fantasy force that includes Mongols and Samurai at the same time. My explanation? An enlightened monk saw that Kublai had the mandate of Heaven and taught him much about divination and meteormancy (? weather control), hence a subjugated Japan.
And to keep interested in the topic:
EDIT: These guys would tower over Arcane Legions Han, which would make them look more heroic. Also, plumes and tassels are fairly common bits to add flamboyance and pageantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/07 05:57:45
Excellent news. Far too much saturation of Japanese samurai miniatures as if it were the be all and end all of Asian setting wargaming.
Though Three Kingdoms is the most well known period (and I think overdone), the Warring States period would be an excellent setting for a game, but it seems there aren't many miniatures game that deal with that period in any detail. The two I can think of offhand are Warhammer Historicals and DBMM, and DBMM deals in relatively broad strokes, lumping Warring States, Qin dynasty, and arguably early Western Han into one list. I guess one big difference is that the Three Kingdoms period has become enshrined as a period of personal heroics through the stories and existing games, films, etc... whereas the Warring States period has a hefty dose of politics and the role of personal gallantry is less prominent.
The fall of Qin, and the Chu-Han war that culminated in the founding of Han would also make for a good albeit short period of wargaming.
2014/12/07 16:49:41
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
Commissar-Danno wrote: I just can't wait to put some ancient Chinese against a Roman Legion
I was thinking the exact same thing. Although there isn't any accounts that they did make contact with one another they did trade through intermediaries and the Romans were aware of "another Rome to the East". What could have been...
2014/12/07 19:01:37
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
Commissar-Danno wrote: I just can't wait to put some ancient Chinese against a Roman Legion
I was thinking the exact same thing. Although there isn't any accounts that they did make contact with one another they did trade through intermediaries and the Romans were aware of "another Rome to the East". What could have been...
Believe it or not there was a Roman Legion tasked to go the east on the otherside of the world and it was lost. Though lost it appeared that shortly afterwards the Chinese adapted some Roman fighting techniques.
2014/12/07 19:45:10
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
If they did some Three Kingdoms miniatures, I'd be all over that! Well, for the principal characters at least, if only to paint them up and put them on display.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: If they did some Three Kingdoms miniatures, I'd be all over that! Well, for the principal characters at least, if only to paint them up and put them on display.
Real, historical, non- heroic 3 Kingdoms, or over the top 3 Kingdoms with a more modern flair?
I'd always assumed historically accurate would be pretty similar to these guys on display, outside of a few banners and peacock feather plumes here and there.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Commissar-Danno wrote: I just can't wait to put some ancient Chinese against a Roman Legion
I'd put my bets on the Chinese forces as the Chinese Warring States and later the unified Qin or Han dynasties could field enormous forces by comparison to the more individually heavily equipped Romans. Quantity has a quality of its own. Qin in particular won the Warring States because its political decisions led to political centralization as well as agricultural and economic development allowing it to basically win both through ruthlessness (killing enemies in battle was one of the few means of upward social mobility for commoners) and attrition. See the Battle of Changping, one of the largest battles of the ancient world but largely unknown in the West. Though Qin and Zhao both took heavy losses, Zhao was devastated (and lost the battle) and never recovered whereas Qin did and went on to conquer the rest of the Warring States.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/07 20:43:48
2014/12/07 21:14:43
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
Commissar-Danno wrote: I just can't wait to put some ancient Chinese against a Roman Legion
I'd put my bets on the Chinese forces as the Chinese Warring States and later the unified Qin or Han dynasties could field enormous forces by comparison to the more individually heavily equipped Romans. Quantity has a quality of its own. Qin in particular won the Warring States because its political decisions led to political centralization as well as agricultural and economic development allowing it to basically win both through ruthlessness (killing enemies in battle was one of the few means of upward social mobility for commoners) and attrition. See the Battle of Changping, one of the largest battles of the ancient world but largely unknown in the West. Though Qin and Zhao both took heavy losses, Zhao was devastated (and lost the battle) and never recovered whereas Qin did and went on to conquer the rest of the Warring States.
I agree in general with you but I also think that the Chinese would be dealing with a fully resourceful Empire as well that can draw upon the resources of it's allies, provinces and client states that would make the fight a closer run thing. The Chinese do have the Advantage though with the Art of War. But inbetween China and Rome would be India
2014/12/07 21:51:29
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
That is definitely a general figure, based on the Qin Terracotta Army general figure. The headdress and the tassels were signs of rank, and the fact they were one of the few with likely metal armor as opposed to leather scale.
2014/12/08 08:23:53
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
Can anyone recommend any good Wuxia or historical fiction books or movies? I want to stay motivated for this kickstarter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone recommend any good Wuxia or historical fiction books or movies? I want to stay motivated for this kickstarter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/08 08:23:59
I've got the few Louis Cha books that got translated into English. They're hard to find these days. Absolutely love them. The Book and the Sword is a one and done novel, while the Deer and the Cauldron is a 3 volume set. Both are good.
I also have a copy of Gu Long's 11th Son in English which is quite cool.
Those two were the big writers as it was. Most of the kung fu TV show serials and movies are based on their stuff.
Comics One was publishing a bunch of HK Comic adaptations in English of Cha's stuff- The Legendary Couple, Heaven Sword & Dragon Sabre... maybe a few more (and a bunch of wuxia related stuff like The Storm Riders). You can still track a lot of those down online, but none of the series are complete as the company went belly up.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Historical drama, but at least tries to follow the history of Qin's rise from its position of weakness, starting in 361 BC over several generations (the sequels) to the unification in 221 BC.
Couldn't find any English subbed versions of it, but there is some inspirational bits from the unsubbed version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiBf2rhKtQ4 The opening and from 14:00 onwards, showing a battle between Qin and Wei in 361 BC, shows troops using equipment similar to the miniatures
2014/12/08 14:07:27
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
Andilus Greatsword wrote: If they did some Three Kingdoms miniatures, I'd be all over that! Well, for the principal characters at least, if only to paint them up and put them on display.
Real, historical, non- heroic 3 Kingdoms, or over the top 3 Kingdoms with a more modern flair?
I'd always assumed historically accurate would be pretty similar to these guys on display, outside of a few banners and peacock feather plumes here and there.
Over the top would really be more interesting for a miniature line (and would probably make me buy more ), but I could really go for either.
Commissar-Danno wrote: I agree in general with you but I also think that the Chinese would be dealing with a fully resourceful Empire as well that can draw upon the resources of it's allies, provinces and client states that would make the fight a closer run thing. The Chinese do have the Advantage though with the Art of War. But inbetween China and Rome would be India
And Parthia/Persia, which gave the Romans (both original and Eastern) fits right up until the Arabs overran it (due to a combination of civil war and disease).
The two I can think of offhand are Warhammer Historicals and DBMM, and DBMM deals in relatively broad strokes, lumping Warring States, Qin dynasty, and arguably early Western Han into one list.
Hail Caesar doesn't focus on it, but there are some lists included in the second army list book.
2014/12/08 23:47:41
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
Andilus Greatsword wrote: If they did some Three Kingdoms miniatures, I'd be all over that! Well, for the principal characters at least, if only to paint them up and put them on display.
Real, historical, non- heroic 3 Kingdoms, or over the top 3 Kingdoms with a more modern flair?
I'd always assumed historically accurate would be pretty similar to these guys on display, outside of a few banners and peacock feather plumes here and there.
Over the top would really be more interesting for a miniature line (and would probably make me buy more ), but I could really go for either.
I would also prefer over the top minis, or at least an upgrade sprue to give us some over the top options.
Keitheuwi wrote: I assumption one big aberration is that the Three Kingdoms aeon has become enshrined.
Hasn't that literally happened to certain characters, such as Guan Yu?
Yes, Guan Yu isn't the only one, but certainly the most well known. Zhuge Liang is another example. But aside from Guan Yu, the rest are all rather niche.
2014/12/10 00:06:30
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
Hello everyone and I was excited to read all the posts about our upcoming miniatures range and a few other ideas.
I hope you keep a Watchful eye on this site as well as our company Facebook page because we will continue to post new information as we get closer to the launch of the Kickstarter. I noticed a few comments about the amount of time before our Kickstarter launches and I wanted to address that quickly. We are working very hard to make sure that any delivery dates we announce we do everything in our power to hit them. Yes, there will be unforeseen circumstances that will be out of our control but at the moment we are attempting to remove as many of those obstacles as possible.
We are a start-up company and this is our first project so we wanted to give ourselves enough time to present the best product range we know how. There will be some surprises along the way and I think in the end we will make a lot of people smile and purchase a miniature or a hundred.
We felt as many of you may have mentioned already that the Warring States / Qin Dynasty period has a ton of potential and is represented well in Hollywood and gives us some of the most identifiable relics/wonders in history. I am happy with our progress so far and I am proud to present you with our toy soldiers in future.
Thanks,
Joe
2014/12/10 01:47:55
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
I'd call that an understatement! When it comes to constant intrigue, huge dramatic battles, and larger than life personalities, Warring States is right up there with Three Kingdoms.
Unfortunately, there is very little in English specifically about Eastern Zhou/Spring & Autumn/Warring States/Qin Empire. For example, the most recent (and probably most reliable) English translation (by Crump) of Strategies of the Warring States is expensive and can be hard to find. Trustworthy secondary sources in English are mostly relegated to dense introductory chapters of survey texts. As far as movies go, there is Zhang Yimou's Hero, which came out in the US a bit over a decade ago. It's not a bad film but it is more in the vein of wuxia than history (Jet Li stars). There is an older film on the same subject (the famous story of the attempted assassination of the First Emperor) called The Emperor and the Assassin, which is less ... er, fantastical -- at least in the sense of martial arts super powers.
This is pretty frustrating considering how important the period is for all subsequent eras of Northeast Asian history, especially in terms of Chinese thought. Confucius, Zhuangzi, Sunzi ("Sun Tzu") are all famous in the West -- this when they lived and taught. The fall of the Zhou and rise of the Qin provided the paradigmatic conception of Chinese political philosophy for the next two thousand years and remains relevant even today. Chinese language itself is full of idioms derived from stories and legends of these times.
If anything, it's about time someone got around to doing this kind of product line. Now -- how about rules? Is Watchful Studios planning on releasing their own period-specific rules?
), but I could really go for either.
