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Hi all, both 40k and dakkadakka are new to me, after much thought I had to go CSM khorne, heard its a difficult army to play and get a good balance but I've proxxied two games, one against tau, and one against tyranids, lost both lol, but expected, but I learnt a lot, and have compiled an army list that a believe should be fun, competitive enough to win the odd game but maintaining the fluff. If I'm wayyyyy of the mark, remember this is all new to me, sooooo please forgive in advance, would love lots off feedback and opinions.

***Kharn the betrayer*** (160 points)

***Juggernaut Lord***
---Axe of blind fury
---Sigil of corruption (160 points)

***9 Khorne Berzerkers***
---Icon of wrath (196 points)
---Land raider with dirge caster (235 points)

***10 Khorne Berzerkers***
---Icon of wrath (230 points)
---Rhino with dirge caster (40 points)

***Helcult***
---Helbrute (100 points)
---30 Cultists
-autoguns
-3 heavy stubbers (172 points)
---20 Cultists
-autoguns
-2 heavy stubbers
-champ has pistol (117 points)

***5 CSM bikers***
---Mark of Khorne
---2 Melta guns
---Icon of wrath (160 points)

***2 Obliterators*** (140 points)

***2 Obliterators*** (140 points)

Total 1850 on the button (that's why a cultist champ just has his pistol, every penny counts)

Reasons for my selection---

1, It appears that Kharn and Khorne juggerlord are a must, and seem fun when used right, nothing more to be said there.

2, Berzerkers, my choice over CSM, read lots of debates, my decision is made.

3, Helcult, I originally tried making a list to fit 70 cultists, but just wasn't enough points, this will split opinions, but, yes they die easy BUTTTTTTT, their a scoring unit, they are fearless, gain zealot, imagine, 50 cultists going to ground near an objective, or, marching forward foring 50 shots, 100 shots if within 12 inches (of models alive), or tying up a dangerous model or just attracting most the fire power for couple rounds, remember that's 53 fearless wounds, plus 5 heavy stubbers for good measure.

4.I learnt getting kharn to combat with his berzerkers in good order is a must, that's why he and the zerkers get the landraider, and the 10 get the rhino, just for good measure.

5. I found bikers accompanying the juggerlord does well, I know some use spawn, but couple melta guns can cause bita damage.

6. Obliterators, I don't think they get the credit they deserve, they shoot, they fight, they do all this well and give good versatility, two unites of two, if the enemy don't target them, the helcult can get away with soooo much, and if the helcult gets targeted, then the enemy should expect a lot of heavy fire.

I think with the oblits and helcult the enemy will confuse what to hit as both can be very effective and dangerous, hopefully then taking away any serious fire power and attacks away from the bikers juggerlord and 2 units of berzerkers.

Remember, this is all new to me, so please, constructive criticism, good and bad points please.

I love it, this is basically the army I run just now but I only use Kharn occasionally, when I don't I usually run a Maulerfiend and squeeze the other points into upgrades for units etc.

I usually run with Khorne CSM (modelled as custom bezerkers) instead of Bezerkers though as they are my preference but I can see the benefits of them.

I don't usually run two groups of Obliterators though I normally find that one group is enough in combination with the rest (although I have meltas etc in the CSM squads) and I'll use the other points to pick up a vindicator / predator / turkey as and when I require or the mood takes me. (I don't use the Turkey often as I don't really like it, but I paid for the model so I'm not going to never use it )

Good Luck and have fun!

Blood for the Blood God!

I don't see any glaring errors in composition or strategy against typical armies and think it would be fun as well to play. I'd say that the favored number of Khorne is eight, and hopefully a future Codex will provide an in-game benefit once again.

Cheers for the comments, yea I've not used too many upgrades on champions ect, its quickly adds up, and don't think chainaxes for their cost reap too many benefits. Havent used the helcult formation yet, but I don't think it gets enough praise to what it can bring. Maulerfiend, love the model, seems nasty, would love to squeeze one in sometime, could drop an oblit and biker and rhino for one, now theres a thought

Chainaxes are awful, If I go for weapons on champions it is basically Power Axes or Swords. (I take axes over fists as it fits the theme better.)

Also aim for 8's if you can, I normally run my juggernaut lord with 7 other 'bikers' (they are customised on bloodcrushers also).

Why 8's if you mind me asking, your saying drop 4 berzerkers, so I have 7, kharn and 8 in the other, suppose that makes up the points for the other bikers, but I thought ya get those tanks filled n get as many in combat as possible?

Generally, if you can fill a vehicle I would, so pay me no mind

It is more for theme because 8 is Khornes favoured number, it is actually damaging to some lists because it is taking away effectiveness, in your case I would keep the list as is.

Each of the 4 Chaos gods had a favoured number, in older editions you used to recieve small bonuses for running chaos units in the same size as their gods favoured number.

(6 is Slaanesh, 7 is Nurgle, 8 is Khorne, 9 is Tzeentch.)

It's more of a theme thing than for any actual strategy or point shaving etc, just an old timer showing his age

Keep in mind however, that a fearless unit cannot go to ground....

I would really suggest finding room for a land raider for that second squad, giving them a non-assault vehicle is a bummer, especially such a fragile one.

I feel Maulerfiends would be a more thematic source of anti-armor than obliterators, and perhaps better, but less versatile.

You're missing the points for MoK on your lord, he should be 170.

Drop the bikes for spawn, as IIRC, you can't run with the lord in a bike units (he's cavalry and can't turbo boost, bikes can't run).

As mentioned, find the points for a land raider for your other 'Zerker squad.

I think you're going to have a crapload of trouble as you've only got 1 threat which can really be targetted by AI stuff that matters, which is the lord and bikes. The cultists can be mopped up later on and they don't get ObSec since they're not troops, so he can just charge into them turn 5.

You also have no AA save the Oblits, which will get shot up and be testing on Ld 8 when they lose anyone and the Raiders, which should be too musy moving forward to deliver your troops.

I don't really like the Helcult here as it doesn't offer you much at all. A single shot on a single slow AV12 platform that doesn't get melta until within 12" isn't going to do you any good at cracking transports to get at their chewy centres. I think you'd be better served with Havocs, but you don't have the slots. Double CAD would really help you here since you've already got 2 khorne lords, I'd be looking at dropping the helbrute and using the cultists as 2x min squads.

2x CAD
160 - Kharn
170 - Juggerlord

158 - 7x 'Zerkers, Icon of Wrath
182 - 8x 'Zerkers, Icon of Wrath, Melta Bombs
50 - 10x Cultists
50 - 10x Cultists

120 - 4x Spawn

240 - Land Raider, Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade
240 - Land Raider, Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade
115 - 5x Havoks, 4x Autocannons
70 - 1x Obliterator
70 - 1x Obliterator
70 - 1x Obliterator

100 - Aegis Defense Line, Quad Gun

1795

Kharn goes with non melta bomb 'Zerkers. Both 'Zerkers into land raiders. Juggerlord with spawn. Cultists into reserve or out of LOS. Oblits DS down to help out where required. LR's move towards the units you want to mulch. Havoks man the Quad gun.

You've got 55 points left over to trick out your 'Zerker champions, add more cultists, add more bullet catchers to the havoks, add more bodies to the 'Zerker units or upgrade the Havoks to Missiles of Lascannons. I'd suggest a power Axe for the non-Kharn berzerker champ and then more bodies for the Havoks as you're going to want them to be opening up transports for your berzerkers to charge, and if you do have to shoot at aircraft, then the extra shots from the AC's is probably better than anything else for the points.

I some off your points, but your getting quite serious and taking out things I like and want to use, while also keeping it fun, bare and mind I'm new and will learn my own ways, few points valid I agree, and maybe points to note for future. But like I said I didn't want to be attacked on my first project, you obviously have a wealth of knowledge, and appear very competitive, things I will slowly develop while learning, and on this learning curve I've so far found maulerfiends horrible, didn't do me well at all, but that could be my lack of game knowledge. But, your not entirely correct unfortunately, the Helcult is a formation with troops, counts as a unit/troop selection and is therefore allowed objective secure, games workshop have also specified this as it was one of the big questions on the helcult, therefore, I believe making them very useful and viable to hold an objective, time will tell, but cheers for your in points

Although Whitey I see what your saying you have to realize that by posting on a Warhammer Forum such as dakka that people are going to give you competitive information. There Is little reason to post a list if you don't want people to make it better. Drasius' points are right on. He is saving you money as well so you don't buy stuff you cant use later.

whitey2823 wrote:
I some off your points, but your getting quite serious and taking out things I like and want to use, while also keeping it fun, bare and mind I'm new and will learn my own ways, few points valid I agree, and maybe points to note for future. But like I said I didn't want to be attacked on my first project, you obviously have a wealth of knowledge, and appear very competitive, things I will slowly develop while learning, and on this learning curve I've so far found maulerfiends horrible, didn't do me well at all, but that could be my lack of game knowledge. But, your not entirely correct unfortunately, the Helcult is a formation with troops, counts as a unit/troop selection and is therefore allowed objective secure, games workshop have also specified this as it was one of the big questions on the helcult, therefore, I believe making them very useful and viable to hold an objective, time will tell, but cheers for your in points

No worries dude, but if you've got certain units that you really want to keep, you should probably note that in your original post like you did with the Berserkers. I'm all for theme and style before effectiveness, but when you can have both, even better.

Wasn't trying to attack you at all, you asked for feedback and opinions.

Keep in mind, assault is generally considered bad, and by that extension, khorne tends to get the short end of the stick.

Personally I don't have any success with the maulerfiends either, but many others swear by them.

Can you point me to the GW ruling on formations inheriting the parent detatchment rules please? I recall there being something, but all I can find at the moment are references to ObSec being limited to specific detachments.

Good luck with your list, remember to post up some bat reps and let us know how you did.

Well it's definately points to consider as I learn and develope, while learning myself I'm also helping my 9 year old build an ork army, and my 8 year old a nurgle army, something tells me he's nurgle force will probably be the best outve all three lol, but that's the fun, something to learn with the kids and against mates who are great at it, but seriously cheers tho, I do see some of ur points and also understood some of them before it was wen said but I wanted a nice balance of, fun, enjoyment and fluff to start off, as I learn and skills develope no doubt my more competitive side will aswell lol, although I'm mostly learning this for my boys, once their sorted, it's fantasy I really wanted to try, but one step at a time


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Well it's definately points to consider as I learn and develope, while learning myself I'm also helping my 9 year old build an ork army, and my 8 year old a nurgle army, something tells me he's nurgle force will probably be the best outve all three lol, but that's the fun, something to learn with the kids and against mates who are great at it, but seriously cheers tho, I do see some of ur points and also understood some of them before it was wen said but I wanted a nice balance of, fun, enjoyment and fluff to start off, as I learn and skills develope no doubt my more competitive side will aswell lol, although I'm mostly learning this for my boys, once their sorted, it's fantasy I really wanted to try, but one step at a time


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Sorry, on the cultists, their still two units, therefore still allowing to score, as there is no special rule nullifying this,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, on the cultists, their still two units, therefore still allowing to score, as there is no special rule nullifying this,

On the Cultists: They are indeed Troops, but in 7th edition this is not all you need to gain Objective Secure. Every unit is scoring now, but only Troops from an Allied Detachment or a Combined Arms Detachment have Objective Secured.

Thus Cultists from a Helcult formation do not have it. So scoring, but not ObSec.

The list looks pretty solid for a fun Khorne-themed list, but I am not sold on the Heavy Stubbers. They're Heavy weapons (right?) and you thus have to snap shoot them if you move. They also don't have enough punch to really kill anything. I would replace them with more cultists or flamers.

Please point me in the right direction if I get any of these wrong but upon setting eyes on the helcult it seemed like a great unit for achieving objectives, holding ect, so I done some digging, trying to prove I couldn't use it, cause to me it seemed to good of a deal, up to 73 fearless scoring wounds that can shoot up to double shots if needed. I checked other debates, where people asked gw and got it cleared they can object secure, I asked in store myself, and looked into it as much as I could.

The helcult comes from a data slate, which is an extension of the csm codex.

The helcult specifies it is from the csm faction, and is a formation.

The formation consists of 3 units from the csm codex, 1 helcult, up to two units of each up to 35 cultists in each.

As their units, from the codex, coming together to make a formation, I can't see how these prevents them objectsec, therefore leaving still as a unit of cultists,

But the best part, after the data slate specifies all this, it also states in bold 'restrictions' and under restrictions it states 'none'

This leaves cultists as they are, troops, troops achieve objectsec.

Page 122 says nothing different. If it's stated somewhere that I've missed

On page 121 under formations, 'unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role when taken as part of a formation.

Like I said no restrictions are applied to this formation. Seriously though have I missed something?

Objective Secured is conferred onto units from a CAD or a Formation which specifically grants it. If the Helbrute Formation(s) provide ObjSec it will say so, along with other benefits, such as the re-rollable Warlord Trait, etc.

The units retain their role from the Codex, but are considered an extension from the Detachment, meaning they don't satisfy CAD minimums. Essentially, if a Mission rewards extra VP to "killing Fast Attack units" for example, then the roles impact things.

Can you point to where the rule book backs this, I'm all for it if I've missed something but with the greatest of respects you've only backed up what you believe to be true with your own interpretation. Cultists fall under troop selections as normal, this allows objective secure as stated on page 122. Iike I said I also double checked this at the local games Worksop store.

Based on what your saying, a point I've alr already reiterated , page 122 of the rule book, under the CAD, states ALL troops units from this detachment have the objective secured special rule. Cultists count as a troop choice, this is fact, not opinion, it specifies this. Your only assuming you can't without much thought.

If I'm wrong I don't mind, but after researching and confirming with gw and by following the rule book, I can't really accept what I believe to be your opinion, as that's what it is unless I oi can point me to something to show me of my error. As it stands the rule book and gw allow it

I believe that the wording states;

"All troops units from this detatchment have the objective secured special rule"

Emphasis mine.

The question is now; Is the dataslate part of the CAD or allied detatchment? If yes, then they get objective secured. If no, then they do not.

Does the dataslate state that it is part of the CAD or Allied detatchment? I don't believe it does, in fact, IIRC, it's considered it's own detatchment, so if that's the case, then the cultists don't get objective secured.

If it had've stated army, then all troops choices would get ObSec, but detatchment is not the same thing.

Stating the faction that the units come from is only for determining CtA and desperate allies "One Eye Open" checks IIRC, it doesn't allow you to count the dataslate as part of your detatchment, though I may be misremembering.

Still, if your FLGS runs it that they're ObSec, then by all means, run them in your list and have fun with it. Just be aware if you go other places, you might need to have a discussion to ensure that they play it the same. Would be a sour note if you got to the end of a really fun, tight game that came down to winning or losing based on your cultists being ObSec and then spoiling it by arguing.

Edit for lack of clarity around rule wording.

Again it's what you believe, not what is written. The data slate is an extension to the csm codex, not a separate army or force, it allows you to combine the helbrute and cultists together just like it's does with kharn and berzerkers, giving you the added benefits. What your pointing out is an opinion you have brewed up, not a point backed up by the data slate or rule book. If I am wrong I don't mind as long as the point is backed up by something solid, instead of being backed up by what you believe, 'won't to believe'. You would have a difficult time disallowing the objectsec based on what your saying compared to what I am, but if I'm showed where it explains you can't and it's as clear as the points that actually suggest you can, then their would be a debate, but you point has no value unfortunately, there's nithing further than an opinion in what ur trying to explain. Like I said, I'd listen if ur able to back up ur thoughts, but for someone to say, o you can't use that, because I don't think it's a troop choice, when in actually fact it is, or that you can use it cause the data slate doesn't say you can, considering the data slate saying there's no restrictions on the formation actually stands my argument to a better shape.

The response provided was my interpretation, so if you want RAW:

Pg. 121 Formations "a special type of Detachment"

Pg. 121 Core Detachments: Combined Arms (CAD) and Allied.

.: Formations, CAD, and Allied are all Detachments.

Pg. 118 Detachments: "You will find further Detachments to use in your games of Warhammer 40,000 in our codexes and other Games Workshop publications". (i.e. Campaign books, Dataslates, White Dwarf articles, etc.)

"There is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include ... all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment."

A unit of Chaos Cultists purchased as part of a Formation Detachment are not also capable of being a part of a CAD to receive Objective Secured, unless the CAD (or other Detachment used) includes a Formation box within the FOC.


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With regards to the "same Battlefield Role", pg. 119: "Certain rules can alter a unit's Battlefield Role, changing it." This is prevalent in many pre-7th edition Codexes, such as the Chaos Codex which changes the role of "Cult" CSM such as Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, Chosen, etc. etc. into Troops depending on the HQ selected within the Detachment. Chaos Cultists retain their Troop role because nothing specified says otherwise.

Mate, we've tried to help you multiple times and you've gotten pissy both times. I think I was pretty clear (though you chose to think otherwise due to how I worded my post) about why it doesn't work that way according to page 117, which I quoted. Aurelian has cited actual page numbers with his quotes to again prove it doesn't work the way you think.

If you're looking for something in the BRB that directly says one way or another that troops in a formation from the same parent codex do/do not have Ob Sec, then you're in for disappointment. Still, it's quite clear that since it states that only troops from your CAD or allied detachments have ObSec and that formations are seperate detatchments. It doesn't take a giant leap to figure out that Formation detatchments don't get ObSec.

Like I said, play it however you want in your local, but realise that >99% of people interpret the rules to mean that they don't have ObSec.

Does that make us wrong and you correct? Who knows until GW give an official ruling on the matter and until then it's going to be just another in the long line of poorly worded rule by the GW that we all know and roll our eyes at.

Either way, you originally wanted a mildly competative khorne list, you've got one. Don't play against tourney lists and you'll stand a fighting chance. Run the helcult or not, with ObSec or not. You're not going to listen either way.

Lolz! Welcome to my world! I use to try to give advice until a newbie argues wit me.

"I have this unit and it is mandatory. "
Me: but that unit is not point efficient.
"I build it and i dont want it sitting around collecting dust"
Me: you know what, gud luck...

Being a Troop is not enough to gain Objective Secure, to get that, it must be a troop which is a part of a CAD-detachment or an allied detachment (or Skyblight gargoyles or some of the new BA formations or whatever) - ObSec is a special rule granted to certain units in certain detachments, it is not a universal rule for the unit type Troops.

Take the CSM formation Kranon's Helguard, released in the advent calendar. It contains two units of Chaos Cultists, which are troops, but because it is a special formation and not a Combined Arms Detachment or an Allied Detachment, they do not get ObSec.

Are they scoring? Of course! Everything is scoring in 7th. Scoring is not the same as ObSec.

Aurelian provided the necessary references to this debate.

But anyways, to go a bit more back on topic, I think the Helcult formation is still a solid detachment, because regardless of ObSec or not, 30 Fearless cultists makes for a great tarpit unit.