Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys,

Looking to start a Warmachine Khador army the models look amazing.
I've seen a warjack I know I want to use and that is the Kodiak I also want to use either Sorcha or the Butcher.


I was wondering if there were any veterans of Khador out there that might be able to tell me what units I should be using and any other advice.


Would like to hear from you.

Thanks
DarkHorse

I know in Feburary of 2015 PP is putting out a Khador 35 pt bundle.

The Kodiak is an excellent jack, and works very well with Butcher.

My current 15 pt list is.

pButcher
Kodiak
10 Winter Guard with officer attachment and Three Rocketeers
Kovnik Joe.

Its a nasty winterguard death list, and at 15 points you'll have no friends.


Most Khador casters can only take one jack, because they are all greedy casters, either smashing face or casting spells. So you end up with a lot of infantry, so make sure you like them.

The Kodiak is a versatile jack, and can surprise players by marching full speed through a forest.

Thanks guys I love the model as it reminds me of a knuckles theme. I did not know Khador was more troop based I thought it was more Jack based.

The problem with Khador is that all their warcasters like having lots of Focus to play with themselves, which leaves very little to stick on their warjacks. Most Khador warcasters will run one warjack, very occasionally two; the starting point for most armies is a Winter Guard or an Iron Fang unit loaded down with defensive support.

If you're looking for warjack-heavy Khador you probably want to look into Andrei (the Journeyman Warcaster) and mercenary 'Jack Marshals (Khador's 'Jack Marhsals don't work well simply because Khadoran 'Jacks like to be run full, one pseudo-Focus doesn't cut it). If you're looking for a warjack-heavy army in general Cygnar (Nemo, three journeyman warcasters, the best 'Jack Marhsals around) and Cyriss (Induction and related shenanigans) probably have the broadest variety of tricks for running lots of warjacks all at once.

 darkhorse19 wrote:
Thanks guys I love the model as it reminds me of a knuckles theme. I did not know Khador was more troop based I thought it was more Jack based.

No, I'm afraid not. The fluff I'd actually quite explicit in that infantry is it's backbone. In fow:khador they list irusks fourth assault batallion which has over 10,000 infantry, and 80 warjacks. This is pretty par for the course I'm afraid.

In the fluff, whilst they have ample resources to build cortexes (warjack brains) they're in far flung remote and all but inaccessible areas. Hence massive costs to manufacture, khador counter this lack of jacks by making what few they have count for more: ie they make each jack a big solid bruiser that can withstand a lot of punishment. The second way is by focusing on their excellent infantry backbone which compensates for lack of jacks.

There is no reason (especially with Malakov) that you can't run two or three jacks with some casters. Some trend to being more selfish and only want one however.

I honestly think Khador design is one of the biggest mistakes PP ever made. I can not count the number of new players who see the big stompy Khador warjacks, start jack heavy Khador as their first faction, then give up on the game because jack heavy Khador is almost always the wrong choice.

That said, one (or sometimes two) jacks is always something you need just to meet the points requirements, and Khador has some good options for the one jack you do want to take. Kodiac is a nice option because it can run for free. Normal jacks take your general's "focus" (some kind of cross between mana and attention span) to do special stuff like move faster, charge the enemy, or attack more often. Since Kodiac can run without needing focus it doesn't drain your caster (warcaster, the name of your general in warmachine) so he/she can focus (pun intended) on getting their spells out or using their resources to smash things themselves.

The kodiac suffers a little bit from not having a very high power attack (not being able to damage high armor targets), but Butcher can pretty much kill anything in the game by himself anyway, so that isn't really a problem with him.

Hope that helps.

Nah, thats not a design mistake. Its a player idiosyncrasy. They see a big giant stompy warjack and think "I wanna run a ton of those!" without thinking that a big stompy warjack will be a bunch of points and take a bunch of resources.

So Khador is actually designed exquisitely. They can't make very many Cortices in the fluff, on the table top you rarely run more than 1-2 jacks. Its a perfect match.



Malekov is the best option Khador has for running more than one jack at the moment. Him plus Behemoth or a Spriggan is a nice package that will fit into any list and work well.

Right ok so one jack many troops and either butcher or sorcha got it thx guys.

In the fluff, that's why they mad Man O' Wars, to compensate for the lack of jacks.
I'm starting Khador, got the battlebox and widowmakers...but I gotta ask, why do I hear such bad things about Man o' wars? On paper they seem alright.

Its because Khador is a fast army (believe it or not) and man o wars are quite slow. Plus they are also pretty expensive.

Yup. Man'o'wars are slow and don't hit hard enough to justify the wait. They're also actually pretty squishy.

Khador has some methods to speed them up, but why make a slow unit have an average speed when you could make a unit with average speed have insane speed?

12 Winterguard with Tough and Defense 17 are also far more difficult to kill then 5 Man'o'war with Armor 20. One warjack with reach and 3 Focus can easily kill 3-4 Man'o'war who are worth the same points as he is, but he'd be lucky to kill 2-3 winter guard.

 MWHistorian wrote:
In the fluff, that's why they mad Man O' Wars, to compensate for the lack of jacks.
I'm starting Khador, got the battlebox and widowmakers...but I gotta ask, why do I hear such bad things about Man o' wars? On paper they seem alright.

Khador are lacking in ways to get the most out of their heavy infantry, especially compared to what other factions (eg skorne, legion, trollbloods) can get out of theirs.

First up, the main issue isn't entirely that they're squishy. I think that's overstated, Everything in this game is squishy. Men o war fall down against weapon masters (who doesn't?) but against your pow10s and pow12s they shrug them off. Shock troopers get arm21 in shield wall - they're Solid. They're medium based, so they block Los, tramples and charges and cover quite a bit of the board. So you'd think that'd be good, eh? Run them up the board, get in the zone, soak up the hits and be obnoxious about it?

Yeah, well, no, their issue comes down to speed, mainly. Speed4. That means they're running two to three turns to get anywhere. That means they're not attacking stuff. And no shield wall, so they become very vulnerable. The issue is (a) they're simply not fast enough to get where they need to be. I don't mind them dying when they get there; frankly, they're an anvil - they take the hit, the rest of the army acts as a hammer. But they need to get there in the first place. the lack of speed stops them being a first wave unit (where they'd be amazing), and relegates them to second wave. Here, the lack of speed is compounded by a lack of attacks. Well, not for shock troops, but they're the vulnerable ones!

IMO they lack the speed to be a decent first wave unit, and they lack the attacks to be a second wave. Compound this with their price (they should all be 5/8) which is over costed, and frankly, the fact that you get more mileage out of iron fangs and winter guard, means they sit on a second tier.

That doesn't mean you can't run them. I love them with epic irusk. Tactical supremacy and martial discipline really shine with them in his army. They really add to his game in a huge way. Butchers theme has a speed boost and a price reduction. As a skew, I think it has value. So as a speculation tool. Yes you can make them work. As generalists? Not so much. As a comparison to double wardens and the meat mountain? Hopes and dreams bud. hopes and dreams.

Khador heavy infantry kind of suck the most. I mean, just comparing them to Convergence or Menoth makes you want to cry little khadoran tears.

For example.
MOW ST 6/9 cost but SPD 4, arm21 in shieldwall. Def 10 though... Base pow 14 but with reach.

CoC Reciprocators 6/9 SPD 5!!!! Arm 20 in shieldwall. Def 12. Can either choose set defense (which makes them 14 against charges) or +2 to DMG rolls.

Menoth Bastions Spd 4, Reach, Arm 16, Pow 12 weaponmaster but with sanguine bond which helps screw over so many things, including anything that requires on boxed etc.

These are really the closest comparisons I can make with regards to the heavy infantry. What Khador needs is something that's like the Skinwalker Alpha for MOW.

Armor buffs are one of the things which make heavy infantry really amazing. And Khador will never ever get an arm buff because they have base Arm20 warjacks.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nah, thats not a design mistake. Its a player idiosyncrasy. They see a big giant stompy warjack and think "I wanna run a ton of those!" without thinking that a big stompy warjack will be a bunch of points and take a bunch of resources.

So Khador is actually designed exquisitely. They can't make very many Cortices in the fluff, on the table top you rarely run more than 1-2 jacks. Its a perfect match.



Malekov is the best option Khador has for running more than one jack at the moment. Him plus Behemoth or a Spriggan is a nice package that will fit into any list and work well.

I like that khador is jack lite. Because my Fav jacks are good.
Heck, I would argue there is not a stinker in terms of jacks for khador

I know I see Man-'O-War Democorps as a second wave for a Winter Guard unit that's there to lock the enemy down a lot more than I see Shock Troopers.

On paper they seem all right, but they don't have the backup. I can run DEF 14 ARM 22 Cetratii with SPD 7 all just off the buffs PXerxis provides, Man-'O-Wars don't have half the tricks other factions' heavy infantry have. A UA for Shock Troopers could help, certainly.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nah, thats not a design mistake. Its a player idiosyncrasy. They see a big giant stompy warjack and think "I wanna run a ton of those!" without thinking that a big stompy warjack will be a bunch of points and take a bunch of resources.

So Khador is actually designed exquisitely. They can't make very many Cortices in the fluff, on the table top you rarely run more than 1-2 jacks. Its a perfect match.



Malekov is the best option Khador has for running more than one jack at the moment. Him plus Behemoth or a Spriggan is a nice package that will fit into any list and work well.

I like that khador is jack lite. Because my Fav jacks are good.
Heck, I would argue there is not a stinker in terms of jacks for khador

The decimator

 Grey Templar wrote:
Armor buffs are one of the things which make heavy infantry really amazing. And Khador will never ever get an arm buff because they have base Arm20 warjacks.

Friendly faction warrior model/unit arm buff could work though.

Personally, I'd rather khador had more 'unyielding' in its ranks. Far more thematic.

If you want a lot of Khador jacks, or you bought an army in a swap or deal that included a lot of them as I did. Buy Kharchev.
Its the only reasonable way to make a jack list for Khador and a viable build.

 Orlanth wrote:
If you want a lot of Khador jacks, or you bought an army in a swap or deal that included a lot of them as I did. Buy Kharchev.
Its the only reasonable way to make a jack list for Khador and a viable build.

I've heard quite a few folks talk good things about butcher3 and two to four clam jacks. Obnoxious in scenario play, and energiser works well with them.

Karchev is fine at low points games, but beyond 25pts, he really starts to suffer. He has one amazing trick - stop that and he's done - and a lot of hard counters.

The butchers, and vlad1 are the better options for running multiple jacks. Although I'd argue Malakov is necessary for running more than two jacks well.

pButcher is one of the best because he has full throttle. So he works well with Kodiaks and Bezerkers because they can actually use their chain attack. Plus free charges.

Malakov is excellent as a jack user. And I think he is one of the few who can use the Grolar effectively. Because that jack is a focus hungry beast.

Vlad is okay, his feat only works on jacks. But it's only one turn. S&P does help them hit, but it works so much better on hard hitting infantry like kayazy and winterguard.

The grolar is pretty awesome. Been playing him with malakov and pvlad and his threat range is insane at times. 13.5" charge range at all times if redline is up.kept

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Khador

 dementedwombat wrote:
I honestly think Khador design is one of the biggest mistakes PP ever made. I can not count the number of new players who see the big stompy Khador warjacks, start jack heavy Khador as their first faction, then give up on the game because jack heavy Khador is almost always the wrong choice.

Exactly. Fluffwise it's explained, but most of the early stuff about Khador's models gave the impression that they have big, bad Jacks when they really aren't all that bigger or badder. IMHO 2 boxes and 2 extra armor isn't worth the usually higher points cost, SPD 4 and typically RAT4, and worse when you compare say a Decimator to something like Menoth's Reckoner which outshines it in every way possible (Reach, better gun, Assault, etc.), is 1 point cheaper and that's not even factoring in the Choir or Vassals that can buff it even further; it's my opinion that PP severely overestimated how Khador 'Jacks would play and we pay a heavy tax for something that ultimately isn't a big deal. Whether or not it's a design choice, the fact remains that a lot of players pick Khador because they think they can run a few big robots (even the Battlebox gives this impression) and then find out later that Khador runs 1 'Jack usually, sometimes 2, and our "light jacks" are pretty terrible and outside of Shocktroopers rarely if ever see the table.

The Reckoner is known to be undercosted. Don't compare anything to it. Especially not what is probably one of the worst jacks Khador has. Look at the Spriggan, that thing is just silly good.

Anyway, 2 points of armor is actually a big deal. Taking 2 less damage on every attack is a big leap in survivability.

Khador also has quite a few speed buffs and accuracy buffs available. Meaning they can deliver their one jack where they want it and when they want it.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
I honestly think Khador design is one of the biggest mistakes PP ever made. I can not count the number of new players who see the big stompy Khador warjacks, start jack heavy Khador as their first faction, then give up on the game because jack heavy Khador is almost always the wrong choice.

Exactly. Fluffwise it's explained, but most of the early stuff about Khador's models gave the impression that they have big, bad Jacks when they really aren't all that bigger or badder. IMHO 2 boxes and 2 extra armor isn't worth the usually higher points cost, SPD 4 and typically RAT4, and worse when you compare say a Decimator to something like Menoth's Reckoner which outshines it in every way possible (Reach, better gun, Assault, etc.), is 1 point cheaper and that's not even factoring in the Choir or Vassals that can buff it even further; it's my opinion that PP severely overestimated how Khador 'Jacks would play and we pay a heavy tax for something that ultimately isn't a big deal. Whether or not it's a design choice, the fact remains that a lot of players pick Khador because they think they can run a few big robots (even the Battlebox gives this impression) and then find out later that Khador runs 1 'Jack usually, sometimes 2, and our "light jacks" are pretty terrible and outside of Shocktroopers rarely if ever see the table.

I disagree. Khador jacks don't suffer a higher points cost than other heavies in other factions, and speed4 is fairly typical for a huge number of heavy warjacks in the game across all the factions (protectorate, khador,quite a few cygnar ones, rhulics etc). 2 extra armour is a big deal, especially on a 'concentrated force' counter punch piece that won't be in the frontline- you can get it where it needs to be to do its damage. Use your infantry to swarm the other guys heavy hitters. And then he's facing arm20, or 25 if it's a clam jack without armour cracking. Plonk it in a scenario zone and dare someone to mess with it. but let's be fair. The idea isn't to have unkillable jacks, it's to have tough jacks, and khador jacks require quite a bit more investment in order to be destroyed. Regarding the decimator/reckoner - it's an unfair comparison. You're comparing a dedicated gun platform with the added choir tax (so how much is invested in this comparison, eh) to a melee jack that happens to have a gun. And it's probably the poorest of khadors jacks. Bad comparison is bad, and furthermore, Apples and oranges.

Secondly, people pick khador for a lot more reasons than 'big shiny jacks'. Take me. Doom reavers. Assault kommandos. And the butcher. The 'waves of infantry' approach also has a certain appeal. I also find it amusing you claim people think they can run 'a few big robots' only to find out that means one or two - that sounds like 'a few' warjacks to me, as opposed to 'many warjacks'. And amusingly,the battle box has two. Not three. Or four. Two. It should be clear khador runs less jacks from the outset. Most of the advice from the community is along the same lines - khador likes it's infantry, don't fall into it if you want to run a dozen jacks, other factions do that better. No different to someone who warns to be playing melee samurai tau. No. That's not what they're about. You'll tell them tau are about shooting. Adjust your expectations.

And Khador will never ever get an arm buff because they have base Arm20 warjacks

Circle has a base ARM 20 warbeast and a caster that can give it +3ARM every turn. And Circle is a "squishy" faction.

Skorne has an ARM 21 War beast that can be given +2DEF/+2ARM via spell, an extra +2ARM on Xerxis feat turn and then another +2DEF/ +2ARM vs. shooting each turn with a cheap support beast.

Skorne actually plays the way that new players think that Khador does. Lots of big stompy beasts, which are also backed up by awesome medium infantry. DEF18/ARM24* infantry with 8 boxes each that can shield wall advance up 7" every turn makes them viable vs incoming fire and fast enought to make a difference...

DEF12 + 2 Def Ward + 2 Krea animus +2 Gobber Cloud
ARM16 +4 shield wall +2 Krea animus +2 Def Ward

Take them with Xerxis non-tier and they're AMR24 vs. melee ARM26 vs. shooting on feat turn.

What Khador has, which Skorne lacks, is bent casters like Butcher 3. 2/3 of the faction book is sub par, but some of the Khador casters are amazeballs.


Gaz

I thik Khador relies more on their caster then any other faction really does though.

Indeedy, point I was alluding to previously.

Related to that is what i believe is "The Vlad tax". This is whereby Vlad 1 has Signs and Portents and Vlad 2 has a feat that can turn troops into avatars of carnage for a turn.

Signs and Portents is essentially +2 to attack and damage rolls of all friendly faction models within 14" of him. This is awesome. Some feats have this power, and he can use it every turn... Downside is that some units are subpar. Assault Kommandoes are mediocre, but +2 to hit and damage with potentially 3 attacks per round pushes them into very good.

And the Khador cavalry is just sad. But they're balanced against Vlad2 feat giving them +3 to a lot of their stats, turning them into death machines. If they were good to start with, the feat would make them really OP.


Gaz