Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With their alpha strike shenanigans and dreadknights, are they considered to be cheesy?

Give your reasons too.

I vote yes and no for all of these, because I can.

Are you going to ask the same question for every single army?

Kinda yes and no.
There are some nasty builds out there.

Just these three (to begin with) as I know Eldar will receive all yes replies, Necrons will be updated soon, I could do Daemons... But I can't be asked.

I chose Tau as some people claim they are cheesy.
I chose SM as they have really powerful units and are also top tier.
I chose GKs as similarly to Tau, there is one majorly good unit, so I wanted to see if the hate was just against Tau (since they're xeno perhaps?) or if it was a general 2+ MC hate.

Stupid polls are stupid.

SJ

Why is it stupid?

You can select both options.

That's nothing unique with my poll (or is it?)

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it stupid?

It's a biased poll with a binary choice that can both be selected, netting a boolian out come of one, the other, or both, but not neither, which makes polls like this stupid.

A better poll would be, "Which Armies do you feel are not balanced (and why)?", follow by a poll noting all armies as well as the option "None, they are all balanced". Such a poll would open a lively dialog/heated debate on the current balancing issues of the game with a simple graphic showing us all what the community see as balanced.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it stupid?

It's a biased poll with a binary choice that can both be selected, netting a boolian out come of one, the other, or both, but not neither, which makes polls like this stupid.

A better poll would be, "Which Armies do you feel are not balanced (and why)?", follow by a poll noting all armies as well as the option "None, they are all balanced". Such a poll would open a lively dialog/heated debate on the current balancing issues of the game with a simple graphic showing us all what the community see as balanced.

SJ

So this poll is bias? Are my SM and Tau polls unbias then? This thread is about whether or not GK are nooby, just like I did with Tau and SM. What is your problem?

Rules wise no, fluff wise oh heck yeah they're cheesy.

Against IG they are as OP as eldar. Can't hide from the alfa strike, can't take out 3 ndks or 2 ndks and a cent star fast enough, while GK delete two or three units per turn. Worse they can easily kill important linch pin units like command squads or vets.

Against eldar or necron they are probably balanced, maybe even weak.

SGTPozy wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it stupid?

It's a biased poll with a binary choice that can both be selected, netting a boolian out come of one, the other, or both, but not neither, which makes polls like this stupid.

A better poll would be, "Which Armies do you feel are not balanced (and why)?", follow by a poll noting all armies as well as the option "None, they are all balanced". Such a poll would open a lively dialog/heated debate on the current balancing issues of the game with a simple graphic showing us all what the community see as balanced.

SJ

So this poll is bias? Are my SM and Tau polls unbias then? This thread is about whether or not GK are nooby, just like I did with Tau and SM. What is your problem?

He just explained his problem. They would have the exact same problem with the other two, yes. And this really didn't need 3 threads, you could've done it in 1.

Grey Knights don't seem to me (and my untrained eye) half as broken as they were in 5th. Aren't they pretty bad now unless they take allies?

Yeah, on their own GKs have some massive weaknesses. And even their best units have balancing factors. Like, the Dreadknight is more expensive than a Riptide, with only four wounds, no 3++, and it needs to be up close and personal to do damage which exposes it to stuff that can whittle it down quickly like plasma, melta, or grav weapons. Draigo is a lord of war, which is comes with its own host of issues. And all the power armor GKs suck, with the exception of Purifiers who are really only good if you ally in a good transpot like a drop pod for them, otherwise PAGK are just expensive Marines stuck with crappy heavy weapons.

Did they get nerfed from their 5th ed codex? I haven't played them in a while, but if they are not toned down, I vote yes.

I think they have some cheese elements - Dreadknights especially.

But, I certainly wouldn't call the entire army cheesy.

I fear it's the sort of question that doesn't have a yes/no answer.

My mate thinks so, Only because I have force on every unit and they can insta kill his Wraithknight

They have been hit with the nerf hammer from the 5th ed. Codex. I feel they are quite the balanced force to play with and against. So, it is a no vote from me.

Any list except dread spam, no.

GKs are decidedly average right now.

We can just barely pull together a competitive list with just the codex itself.

Overall, the book has some bad internal balance but no more than other codices. We rule the psychic phase, we usually have 15ish dice without even trying, and more if we take Purifiers.

The only troops choice worth anything are Terminators due to the changes to Psycannons. I'm ok with that because I like Terminators but other people got screwed.

It is slightly unfortunate in that we only have 2 choices for competitive lists. Terminator/Libby/DK spam and/or Purifiers in Allied Drop Pod spam. Other than Purifiers, our PA choices are gak(but thats not really new, its just worse than it was before)


Our 5th ed codex was also only cheesy prior to Tau-dar arriving on the scene, and once 7th dropped we got hammered even more. The new book has some nice things, I think a lot of the new things were great, but some of the things we lost were a bit much. We should have kept Psybolts. They also failed to give our GM and Librarians that extra wound they both sorely need(what moron decided that an IG Junior Officer can take more hits than a Librarian?)

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are decidedly average right now.

We can just barely pull together a competitive list with just the codex itself.

Overall, the book has some bad internal balance but no more than other codices. We rule the psychic phase, we usually have 15ish dice without even trying, and more if we take Purifiers.

The only troops choice worth anything are Terminators due to the changes to Psycannons. I'm ok with that because I like Terminators but other people got screwed.

It is slightly unfortunate in that we only have 2 choices for competitive lists. Terminator/Libby/DK spam and/or Purifiers in Allied Drop Pod spam. Other than Purifiers, our PA choices are gak(but thats not really new, its just worse than it was before)


Our 5th ed codex was also only cheesy prior to Tau-dar arriving on the scene, and once 7th dropped we got hammered even more. The new book has some nice things, I think a lot of the new things were great, but some of the things we lost were a bit much. We should have kept Psybolts. They also failed to give our GM and Librarians that extra wound they both sorely need(what moron decided that an IG Junior Officer can take more hits than a Librarian?)

Maybe we should be thankful they didn't get a extra wound, they gave the Bro Champ another and he shot up 50 points... just for that.

Well the Bro Champ can also get Smash. Ap2 sword is something.

I think some people hold 5th edition against them.

For that reason they may be thought of as being cheesy, the same way that people still moan about tau even though 6th edition is now over.

GK lost a lot of their old toys and options. They can spam dreadknights, but that's about it

As far as I can see, if there's two invisible Paladin squads, then yes: The army is completely excessive.

Otherwise I weather the alpha strike and begin the process of attempting to table them.

The reason basically being that Invisibility spam breaks the power curve they're designed around: Each model has a crazy amount of damage output, balanced by low model count and how quickly effectiveness drains as the units are thinned. If they're invisible, they don't die fast enough to be balanced, and repeat their horrible alpha strike three or four turns in a row.

But... Every codex has one or two horrifically excessive builds. So probably not on balance.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the Bro Champ can also get Smash. Ap2 sword is something.

Still terrible and massively overpriced. Especially since he used to give the whole unit reroll to hit and he could reroll to wound and he simply lost that.

I vote YesNo.

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are decidedly average right now.

We can just barely pull together a competitive list with just the codex itself.

Overall, the book has some bad internal balance but no more than other codices. We rule the psychic phase, we usually have 15ish dice without even trying, and more if we take Purifiers.

The only troops choice worth anything are Terminators due to the changes to Psycannons. I'm ok with that because I like Terminators but other people got screwed.

It is slightly unfortunate in that we only have 2 choices for competitive lists. Terminator/Libby/DK spam and/or Purifiers in Allied Drop Pod spam. Other than Purifiers, our PA choices are gak(but thats not really new, its just worse than it was before)


Our 5th ed codex was also only cheesy prior to Tau-dar arriving on the scene, and once 7th dropped we got hammered even more. The new book has some nice things, I think a lot of the new things were great, but some of the things we lost were a bit much. We should have kept Psybolts. They also failed to give our GM and Librarians that extra wound they both sorely need(what moron decided that an IG Junior Officer can take more hits than a Librarian?)

Against a tailored list. Grey knights are below average. Against a take all comers list they can do exceptionally well - I just won a 1250 torny with my knights. 14 model army. Won every game. I also think you are leaving out some other very powerful choices. For example - Grand masters. For less than the cost of Draigo you more than likely will end up with a better magic caster and a psycannon. Also Strike Squads are actually pretty good when used in rhinos for alpha strike in combination with everything else you listed.

Another thing to point out is grey knights do well against popular choices. They can easily kill IK's, They can easily kill bike squads. They can easily kill any other monstrous creature. ws5 str 10 puts dreadknights in the running to kill anything. So rarely am I faced with something I can't kill. Also as points go up Knights get even stronger with the ability to bring massive overwhelming force to any point on the map with such mobile units.

7th was a pretty huge nerf to our shooting...but - we also gained psychic dominance and got much cheaper dread-knights - so I think it really evens out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkLink wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the Bro Champ can also get Smash. Ap2 sword is something.

Still terrible and massively overpriced. Especially since he used to give the whole unit reroll to hit and he could reroll to wound and he simply lost that.

Crowe is much better and only 175. He will slaughter most anything in a challenge. Probably even a phoenix lord.