Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,

Several questions for you.

- Is the British Comet in any of the books?

- I''ve seen the set on the FOW website, but what list allows you to take fireflies and cromwells in the same list/squadron?

- What does everyone think of how Nachtjäger is looking so far? Me? I'm excited

Battlefront are producing a line of books to cover 1945.

Tanks like the Comet and Pershing are appearing there. As a rule of thumb I suggest you buy models to cover 1944 instead, as you will have a wider variety of opponents.

I am painting up a 53rd welsh list atm that contains both Cromwells and Fireflys. They allow you to take 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards known as Skins which allow you to take Fireflys and Cromwells together.

Cant comment on how the list plays sadly. But it allows you to take two platoons containing the following options

2 Cromwell IV and 2 Firefly VC 350 points
3 Cromwell IV and 1 Firefly VC 320 points
2 Cromwell IV and 1 Firefly VC 250 points

The list is free on the flames of war website if you want to check it out.

I am sure their are other lists that allow you to do the same but wouldnt know what they are.

I think the Comet only appeared on the front lines in early 1945 and saw rather limited action. By the time of Korea it was still in use but was swiftly phased out in favor of the newer Centurion.

It's a nice tank but never had a chance to prove itself.

The A34 Comet didnt see action till after the Rhine Crossings in March 1945.

Its seems to have garnered a good reputation in its short combat life, being well liked by the crews, seen as a match for the Panther and capable of taking on a Tiger at range to a degree, and very reliable as well as fast.

Comets certainly knocked out at least one Tiger I when they engaged KG Fehrmann on April 12th, one of the small number of tank to tank engagements the Comet took part in...

Franzen's Tiger "F01" which had earlier returned to Fallingbostel with the damaged
turret gear was ready to go again on April 12, and was cobbled into the hastily
formed "Kampfgruppe Grossan" along with a couple of other scrounded Tigers. It
advanced toward the Brithish near the Essel Froest after Crossing the Drebber
stream, encountering 3 Comets of 1.Troop, A Sqn, 3.Bttn.,3.RTR/11. Arm.Div. in a
firefight - destroying 1 of them and an armoured car.

Both sides withdrew for the night but the next morning the Tiger took out an APC then had an arty
barrage called in on it, so it snuck into the woods. Creeping back on to the
road again to feel out the British tanks, "F01" was hit in the left rear side
from about 100 yards by the Comet of Sgt.Harding of C Sqn. Who had moved into a
flanking position in the trees and was later to receive the Military Medal for
this action.

As for the book, well it features IR equipped Panthers on the Western Front... so obviously a little historical fiction in it...

3 Comet tanks platoon?

from official website:
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=53&art_id=4710

Oh good... More myths to keep pushing out as history. Ive not problem with fictional gaming, but history should at least stick to reality. Night-Fighters of Clausewitz... Oh dear. Im guessing the British players can load up with TABBY IR detectors then in this book? The Allies had 10,000 sets in storage...


And they have a picture of Jagdpanther with IR...

When the real vehicle couldnt be fitted with it for gunnery, only for the driver.

Im off to count some rivets and calm down. I have a deep dislike of myths being portrayed as fact.

All wargaming is fantasy, where you act out the senseless deaths of men and have the gall to call it respectful just because you're accurate to rivet counts.

They'll probably just write in the book about the reality of it, then have the inaccuate list there so people can have fun with it as a game.

Nah... I'd call it respectfull to note the actual reality and then let people play with fantasy vehicles if they wish.

Though you brought up respect, not me...

And yes, it is a game, hence why I said its fine to play with fun toys, but nice to get the reality correct so as not to support myths and give people a false sense of the actual reality.

Being historically accurate isnt a dirty word...

Big P wrote:
Being historically accurate isnt a dirty word...

But nor is it mandatory. Personally, I tend to agree with your preference for some degree of historical accuracy, but I think that's because of the time I've spent over the years reading about the subject. I'd guess you have a similar background. I think asserting that one approach is more 'respectful' than another is getting into dodgy territory. Not every veteran on the Allied side would, for instance, understand the pervasive interest in German weapons and soldiers - particularly given the nature of the regime they fought for. Also, the extent to which any game or system is historically accurate is always debatable, especially when you factor in playability and trying to appeal to a broader range of players.

I quite agree.

I just think its worth pointing out the reality, especially when allowing the cool toys to be used.

No system is accurate in portraying war, its a game after all, but I do feel its worth trying to at least make the supporting background information as accurate as possible in order to give a true sense of the historical reality for those interested.

Otherwise you run the risk of myth and supposition being seen as historical fact.

Big P, since you're better informed on research topics, there was mention of a book on the official BF forums that corroborated 3 IR-equipped Panthers in Bennigsen.

Grenadier Kohl wrote:The full book title is

30. April 1945
Der Tag, an dem Hitler sich erschoß und die Westbindung der Deutschen begann

© Suhrkamp Verlag Berlin 2014
eISBN 978-3-518-73694-4

And he provided this text from the book (spoilered because it's a big block of German):



Google translate mangles it badly, but the reference to IR is pretty apparent and evidently it was not particularly liked by Bennigsen. Now, that seems like a recent publication so it could just be perpetuating the myth, but I figured you would be in position to possibly know or more easily find out the provenance of that information.

Well the problem with German use of IR on the Western Front, and apologies for going off-topic, is that a number of historical works have perpetuated the myth to a degree. Im not familiar with that particular title, so I can only offer what I have picked up over time from primary sources.

IR training was conducted at Fallingbostel in 1944/1945, but there was a direct order from Guderian that specifically stated that IR equipment was not to be used against the Western Allies for two reasons. One was the fear of the equipment being captured and the second was the use of IR detectors by the Allies. The Allies had 10,000 Tabby IR sets in stores on the Western Front ready for use should the Germans have deployed IR equipped vehicles.

So we have a direct order from Guderian (Gen. Inspector der PanzerTruppen order issued on 26.6.44) stating not to use the equipment in the west for starters.

Next we come to the units who first trained at Fallingbostel. The four designated companies so trained were all deployed to Hungary to face the Soviet during the winter crisis. Its also remarked that the IR sets were removed from their Panthers before being deployed.

With regards the use of IR on other vehicles, the minutes of the army committee tasked with developing the IR system noted that during 1945 it was only fitted to Panthers. With regards the Panthers, many units that were order to recieve IR equipped Panthers never got them. There exists the lists of IR equipped Panthers and the units to which they were assigned.

Much of the assumption for the use in the West comes from the Feist and Culver book on the Panther. They made two claims regarding IR Panthers engaging first US forces on 21st April 1945 and then British forces in April 1945 where the Panthers knocked out four British Comet tanks.

For the attack on US forces by PD Clausewitz on 21st April, the after action report is available. While the book states the IR equipped Panthers attacked and caused mass panic, the actual report makes no mention of the US troops panicing or of IR Panthers. Perhaps then we can argue that the troops would not recognise the IR equipment... But that doesnt hold water when you read the comments section of the report marked 'Intelligence Matters' that remarks that the US forces in that engagement captured a German car equipped with an IR driving set...

The claim that IR equipped Panthers knocked out four British Comets in a night engagement is even easier to disprove as the Divisional history of Ersatz-PD Clauswitz makes no mention of it, surely the Germans would have noted knocking out four of the new British tanks, and no British unit reported losing four tanks in a night battle during April when all losses were being recorded. Finally the Panthers they suggest that were used, IR equipped Panthers from Fallingbostel, had already had the IR equipment removed and been lost in a day battle. The only April 1945 night engagement with tank losses I can find recorded in British archives is a unit from 8th Hussars who got ambushed by some Hitlerjugend with Panzerfausts (though I have found an engagement that saw the loss of two Churchills to German SP guns at Stadensen on 14/15th April 1945 but the battle started in the afternoon and carried on so I cant say with any certainty if they were lost at night, but no Panthers seem to have been present anyway).

From German records Panzer-Brigade 106 (part of PD Clausewitz) never got any IR equipped Panthers. Certainly none of the factory built versions.

Finally all German combat reports on the use of IR equipped Panthers come from units on the Eastern Front, and the Germans were very keen to see how the FG1250 system performed in action. Sadly the results were rather less than spectacular. The four or five Panthers with IR in Hungary during January reported that the snow blinded the IR sets and cancelled operations with the IR sets. Further combat reports came from Seelow Heights and south-east of Berlin. Both reported an inability to engage targets due to being unable to discern friend or foe when using the IR sets. In general, German commanders seemed very unimpressed by the IR performance.

Of course none of this is infallible, and perhaps there is evidence still to be discovered, but based on the primary material currently available it seems IR equipped Panthers only saw combat in the East.

Not sure how that could be off-topic when Nachtjäger is part of the topic and German use of IR features heavily into it. Thank you for the thorough information.

Not being proficient in German, I can't say what the meaning of the quoted text actually reflects. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that they were issued 3 IR Panthers and Bennigsen never actually used them in combat. The mention that he didn't care for the technology jives with your combat opinions from the Eastern Front, and April of 1945 is a very different world from when Guderian issued his order.

However, even allowing for that possibility it does seem a bit "alternate history" at that point to include them in book; at least the Pershings and Comets actually saw combat even if in very limited amounts.

 Krinsath wrote:


However, even allowing for that possibility it does seem a bit "alternate history" at that point to include them in book; at least the Pershings and Comets actually saw combat even if in very limited amounts.

That would represent a change on the part of BF. For instance, British heavy AA guns were apparently used once or twice in Africa during raids on air bases, so they were included in the MW lists. But while the US 90mm gun was briefly on the front line during Kasserine Pass (as part of a screen), the Germans didn't attack that day. So BF didn't allow the US to use them in MW. Including IR equipment that was never used would represent a change in how BF handles this sort of thing. I'm curious what the history section of the new book will say about the IR equipment.

blazexiii wrote:
3 Comet tanks platoon?

from official website:
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=53&art_id=4710

Thanks! I missed that somehow I don't even know.....

carlos13th wrote:I am painting up a 53rd welsh list atm that contains both Cromwells and Fireflys. They allow you to take 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards known as Skins which allow you to take Fireflys and Cromwells together.

Cant comment on how the list plays sadly. But it allows you to take two platoons containing the following options

2 Cromwell IV and 2 Firefly VC 350 points
3 Cromwell IV and 1 Firefly VC 320 points
2 Cromwell IV and 1 Firefly VC 250 points

The list is free on the flames of war website if you want to check it out.

I am sure their are other lists that allow you to do the same but wouldnt know what they are.

Thanks, I managed to find it. Have a hard time believeing that they'd sell a box set based on one list though... probably from an older list.

Ausbildungs-Lehrgang Fallingbostel is the only unit thats was in the West that I can find an order for recieving 4 IR Panthers, issued on 16th March. These were Fallingbostels training tanks.


Going back to KG Benningsen, the problem is that its formed from 'Clausewitz' units that dont seem to have recieved any as their companies are not listed as getting, or scheduled to get, IR Panthers. Clauswitz was never a permanent force, more an ever changing battlegroup than a formalised division...

We do know what KG Benningsen returned;

Kampfgruppe "von Benningsen":
9 SdKfz 250
10 SdKfz 25
17 PzIV
4 PzIV/70
1 JgPzIV
12 PzV
2 PzVI(Tiger I)
1 StuG
2 15-cm sIG(Sfl)
3 7.5-cm sPak(mot Z)

Just been going through some recent German forum research and they state the Benningsen Panthers were the ones who attacked the US on 21st April. But again I find more sources stating that Clauswitz never fielded any IR equipped Panthers.

The historian Kamen Nevenkin seems fairly adamant none were used in the west. His research on late war panzer formations is pretty much the benchmark...

Everytime I see a report of IR Panthers in use on the Western Front its anecdotal with no evidence and seems easily disproven with actual primary evidence.

The latest suggestion I have seen is that KG Schulze had some at Petershagen. But even in this case, those suggesting it state that they never fought at night as they were destroyed in daytime combat. I have heard from a British researcher that these were the 4 Fallingbostel training Panthers, sent into day combat with the IR devices removed... as KG Schulze fought with KG Fehrmann near Fallingbostel, it seems likely and removing them for day action to avoid capture if knocked out fits with previous comments.

At the end of the day, we can never know 100% what happened, merely form an opinion on the evidence. Over the last few years Germans use of IR has been over rated and over estimated. But if you wanna use a toy one, go for it... im tempted to add one to my Eastern Front forces for action in Pomerania!

Thr Comet is arguable the best tank to see service in World War 2. It ticked all the boxes of what a tank needs, firepower, mobility, manufacturing efficiency and reliability. The only tradeoff was armour, the tank had reasonable armour, but was clearly a medium tank.

Still there was nothing it couldn't handle. It took a while but the british learned the lessons of the war and made a very impressive range of post war tanks, including and especially the Centurion.

The Comet is still in service today in the army of Myanmar (Burma.

One of the Irish Army Comets is just down the road from my house... See it when I take the dogs for a walk up the Curragh.

Big P wrote:
One of the Irish Army Comets is just down the road from my house... See it when I take the dogs for a walk up the Curragh.

This is kinda off topic, but did you live in your area when Otto lived in the same area?perhaps growing up?
http://rt.com/news/218747-hitler-henchman-irish-farmer/

I know he was SS but he is kinda kewl for a bigger than life charcter.Also for being a SS Fallschirmjager Commander.

 col. krazy kenny wrote:

Big P wrote:
One of the Irish Army Comets is just down the road from my house... See it when I take the dogs for a walk up the Curragh.

This is kinda off topic, but did you live in your area when Otto lived in the same area?perhaps growing up?
http://rt.com/news/218747-hitler-henchman-irish-farmer/

I know he was SS but he is kinda kewl for a bigger than life charcter.Also for being a SS Fallschirmjager Commander.

That farm isnt far from my house. The story of Skorzeny in Kildare comes up about once every 18 months... Must be a slow news day. Been well known he lived there for 30+ years.

Im sure he spent plenty of time regaling the locals with his tales... of swanning around Berlin in a sports car taking all the glory for other peoples daring and increasing his waistline.

Big P wrote:
im tempted to add one to my Eastern Front forces for action in Pomerania!

My inner cynic says that this line of thinking has something to do with it; adding it to a "Western Front" list even on a tenuous link ups the sales potential of the upcoming plastic kit a bit. However, if they held to their original preview and the kit is a Panther/Jagdpanther kit, it'd sell well anyway so it could just be that they were running a special on tin-foil at the local haberdashery and I couldn't help myself. Even if it's a 3-tank box I'd still probably buy a couple boxes for JPs, as 10 PSC Panthers accounts for as many of those as I'm particularly likely to ever want to field.

Cool models always sell well...

Though of course, if you do a Pomerian one you get to build the armoured box on the back for protecting two Grenadiers armed with Vampyr IR StG44s for close defence... or so the story goes.

Big P wrote:
I quite agree.

I just think its worth pointing out the reality, especially when allowing the cool toys to be used.

All we've seen so far is a couple of pictures we've no idea how these will be presented in the book. It's a little premature to be calling out the book for mythmaking at this stage.

I think the problem here is that BF have run out of lists to do, it's possible that Varsity/Plunder will generate two more books (one for the Paras and Commandos and one for the US) meaning that there are at least three more books worth of German lists to come if there's a battle for Berlin book. The one Allied, one German list format is starting to break down for late war, and arguably has for early war as well which has resulted in the rather lopsided Barbarossa book.

 George Spiggott wrote:

Big P wrote:
I quite agree.

I just think its worth pointing out the reality, especially when allowing the cool toys to be used.

All we've seen so far is a couple of pictures we've no idea how these will be presented in the book. It's a little premature to be calling out the book for mythmaking at this stage.

Fair enough. Though I wasnt "calling them out" merely stating that its nice to present reality correctly, as far as you can. Call it voicing a concern, it is ok to do that... no need to circle the wagons yet.

Though one of the pictures is of Jagdpanthers with IR sets... and they couldnt be fitted with them. So things like that make me wonder, thats all.

We don't know how the rules will work for them yet. There are some optional rules in the upcoming book for night fighting and since there are already night fighting rules in the game (along with a few armies that specifically take advantage of them). It stands out that they're optional. Also one of the German lists has access to Aircraft (which are not terribly useful in the current night fighting rules).

 Lady_Mournival wrote:
Hey guys,

Several questions for you.

- Is the British Comet in any of the books?

- I''ve seen the set on the FOW website, but what list allows you to take fireflies and cromwells in the same list/squadron?

- What does everyone think of how Nachtjäger is looking so far? Me? I'm excited

There's a few in Overlord (D-Day book) I'm not familiar with all of them, but I know that the Desert Rats 7th Armoured can as I'm currently building that army myself. I believe there's a Market Garden guards list of some sort as well.

Those are the only two books besides Nachtjager that I can think of that would have Cromwells and Fireflies being used in the same platoons. Cromwell was kind of rare compared to british Shermans, so you don't see them quite as often in army lists.


As for Nachtjager itself, I'm watching it, but will probably not use it. I picked my army of Cromwells to use the 7th armoured at the Normandy breakout. I may get a plastic Cromwell box and run Comets sometime for gaks and giggles, but odds are my go to list will remain 8th armoured out of Overlord.

There is no option in Market Garden that allows you to take Fireflies and Cromwells in the same platoon. They would have Challengers instead. The only tank company in the game that allows platoons of Fireflies and Cromwells is the Desert Rats 7th Armoured Division in Overlord (the 53rd Welsh is an infantry company).

Just to keep the debate about infra-red equipment all in one thread, from the 'Defending the Reich' article just posted on Battlefront's website:

They can also use a new set of equipment to give them an advantage on the enemy: infra-red night fighting equipment! By this time in the war, most Panzer schools were training new Panther tank crews to use new infra-red scopes to locate the enemy in the dark. These were dispatched to a number of units in the field and saw action. In northwest Germany a number of British accounts recount encounters at night when British tanks came under fire from unknown enemy locations, so we decided to add the option to field Infra-red equipment.

Well Fallingbostel did conduct IR training in the Autumn of 44, and the unit that was due training at Grafenwohr got Panthers that had no IR fitted and its not clear if they were due at Grafenwohr specfically for IR training or general retraining and refitting. A unit with SPWs with IR was shipped through Wuensdorf training ground, but they had no IR Panthers. All of those units mentioned as having training then went to the Eastern Front.

I suspect regarding 'accounts of encounters at night' we could find many reports of not knowing where fire came from at anythime of the war... At night you often dont know where enemy fire is from... as its dark! Im not sure that can be used as crutch to assume it means use of IR. If so, why no assumption the Allies deployed their IR TABBY sets?However, tank fire is quite easy to notice as the flash and report is huge and lights up the area around the firer. IR or no IR, firing at night in a tank you will stick out like a sore thumb!

From Bovington, the war diaries of 7AD, 11AD, Grds AD, 8AB, 29AB, 33AB, 34TB, 8 Corps, 12 Corps, 30Corps and the 21st Army group as well as the Canadian, Czech and Polish AD's, nobody lost tanks in a night encounter with German Panthers in April 1945 (the time period stated for the alleged destruction of four Comets by IR Panthers) at a time when all losses are recorded. There was a unit of the 8th Hussars bounced at night with panzerfausts and kids.

The only loss of British armour at night, I have seen mentioned from War Diaries (and remember the British were anal in recording losses during this period) in April 1945 is on the 14th/15th April, where two Churchills and two M10s were lost at Stadensen/Uelzen in a night engagement with SPWs and SP guns. This engagement of the 15th Division is quite well covered in both German and British accounts;

To the smoke and flames of the houses was soon added the blast of explosives as piles of German ammunition went up, followed by several ammunition trucks. In this confusion the crews of tank's and guns had a frantic struggle to hold the flames at bay till they could extricate themselves and get into action. Here Major J H M Stephenson of the 530th Field Battery showed leadership of the finest order. First he shot a German officer with his revolver- next he knocked out two German half-tracks with a P.I.A.T. ,- and finally he manned a 25-pounder with success in an anti-tank role. He was to get a Military Cross for his night's work. Guns and tanks at last succeeded in taking up positions to cover the main road-junctions, and the Glasgow Highlanders, fighting back stubbornly, managed tostop further infiltration. The dreadful ordeal continued, however, till after dawn, when the enemy began to witlidraw. Now it was our turn

The two field batteries were in action south-west of Stadensen, with an OP, manned. These two batteries, the S.P. troop of the 91st Anti-Tank Regiment, the Churchills. and the Glasgow Highlanders' 6--pounders all took their toll. The enemy left behind him twelve S.P. guns and ten armoured half-tracks destroyed, besides very many killed and prisoners..

"2.Leutnant Friederich Anding-18 kills
Friederich received his KC for the destruction of 6 tanks and 5 armored vehicles (so says his Verleihungsvorschlag zum Ritterkreuz), as adjutant of the Pz.Jg.Abt. Großdeutschland (commander of the battalion was Maj. Walle) on 8 May 1945. This action took place in northern Germany (more specifically in Stadensen) on 14-15 April. The battalion was attacked by a large number of enemy tanks and armored vehicles. Major Walle (9 destroyed tanks), Leutnant Anding and Obergefreiter Stützle (7 destroyed tanks) received KCs for their actions"

Now there is a comment added that advises caution on the claimed losses:

Now here's what Andreas Düfel (the webmaster of das-ritterkreuz website, he also lives near the town Stadensen, where this action took place and talked to several witnesses) says about this particular incident:

'The town was almost completly destroyed by the tank battle. A documentiation about this fightings still exist. It's interested that the town residents doubt whether there were really18-22 British tanks destroyed. The wrecks were predominantly armored vehicles (not tanks) and quite a few of them were also German. War confusions of the last days of the war could have quite led to a false evaluation of the actually destroyed tanks..'

So Im afraid Im still on the side that suspects no IR Panthers ever fought at night on the Western Front given documented evidence... Now admittedly this tends to be from Allied sources, but German sources confirm the use in the East, via their IR Working Group and it seems odd that they would utterly fail to mention use in the West, especially when so alledgedly successful, while recording the less than spectacular results in the East. All evidence for IR in the west comes from Post-War historians and the two engagements cited have proved false in one instance and made up in another. The historian in me has to go with the line of primary source evidence and suggest no IR Panthers fought a combat action at night on the Western Front. Of course, if anyone has German documentary evidence to the contary, from a primary source, I'd love to see it as it would ask question as to why the Allied TABBY IR sets were not issued.

For those as sad as me, these are worth looking into if you really want to dig into German IR...

Evaluation reports on German I/R June 1945 number 179, War Office
Professor R V Jones 'Most Secret War'.



Aplogies for yet another long ramble... and just to clarify, I have no issue with people using IR Panthers in a game for a bit of fun, Im merely talking in relation to the historical discussion of actual use, not use in a game. As I have an interest in history Im adverse to new myths arising, or existing ones being cemented into reality.

Though I wouldnt let ya use an IR Jagdpanther as it couldnt be fitted with it!