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Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I'm part of a homebrew league at my FLGS, and this week I am paired up against a Menoth player. My experience thus far against Menoth with my Khador has been nothing short of devastating, with me usually getting wiped out in short order (it's one of the main frustrations I have with Khador at the moment; Menoth seems way better at everything). I had a chat with the player to set up our game and we decided on 50 points, scenario yet to be determined but as I'm a Press Ganger I'm going to push for a Steamroller 2015 scenario since I have access to the document.

He's very fond of Harbinger and will almost certainly play her. I don't know exactly what he has, but I know he has the following:

* Harby
* Avatar
* At least one of Vanquisher, Reckoner, Crusader, Repenter
* Choir
* Vassals
* The Book
* Bastions w/Seneschal
* High Paladin
* 2x Paladins of the Wall
* Rhupert

and I think he has Flameguard Cleansers as well. He tends to gush about how awesome Harby is and how he wants to do Paladin spam to make them immune to basically everything. I'm pretty sure he's going to take Harby, the Avatar, max Bastions + Seneschal, possibly the Covenant.

I've never played against Harby before but I'm thinking of using the following list, a variation of Kurt Hindman's WTC list:

System: Warmachine
Faction: Khador
Casters: 1/1
Points: 50/50
The Butcher of Khardov (*6pts)
* Spriggan (10pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (Cylena and 9 Grunts) (10pts)
* Koldun Kapitan Valachev (2pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Black Dragon Officer & Standard (2pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (4pts)
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Iron Fang Kovnik (2pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)

The idea is a variation of the classic pButcher Gunline, with BDIFP as a wall since I can get ARM22 on the mini-feat, and could go up to DEF 16 and ARM 18/22 with Iron Flesh, or put Fury on them for P+S 16 with crit knockdown, and that's before I factor in pButcher's feat. Aiyana & Holt give me magic weapons if I need to shoot up his Warjacks or if he runs the Paladins all together, while the Rifle Corps and Nyss are solid shooty units and with Harby on a large base I can maybe get some shots at her. Depending on scenario I can put the Rifle Corps and Nyss on the flanks with the BDIFP in the middle.

What do you think? Would this work against him? My main issue in the past has always been something like the Vanquisher and Vassal shooting up my infantry with double AOEs each turn, but looking at the Bastions I'm more than a little concerned about how much damage they can take, although if they don't have Defender's Ward I can probably put the hurt on them with my Pikemen.

I have the following at my disposal, with some borrowing from the store army (the owner's son also plays Khador):

Warcasters: pSorscha, eSorscha, pButcher, Butcher3 (store), eIrusk, pVlad, Zerkova (store), Harkevich (store)
Warjacks: Spriggan, Beast, Conquest, Destroyer, Decimator, Juggernaut, Kodiak, possibly Demolisher/Devastator (store, I think it's magnetized), Black Ivan (store)
Units: Great Bears, Widowmakers, Winter Guard Deathstar, Nyss Hunters, Greylord Outriders, Doom Reavers (two units, one is the store's), Rifle Corps (store, I plan to borrow these for the list above), Pikemen, Aiyana & Holt
Solos: War Dog, Valachev, pEiryss, eEiryss, Fenris (store), Widowmaker Marksman (store), Kovnik Andrei Malakov, Iron Fang Kovnik, Kovnik Joe

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 14:29:52


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Harbinger is brutal, but she's also very, very fragile. I've played against her a number of times, the biggest problem you'll find is her feat. It'll shred Iron Fangs since it hits them when they finish their advance so the first model to move won't get the benefit of shield wall, dies, and then the next won't have anyone to claim shield wall off of and dies. Her feat is a total death sentence to light infantry unless you simply stop moving.

If I were fighting Harbinger with Khador I'd go for one of the army's many absurdly fast assassination tricks and go for Harbinger herself. She's a 14/14 with 17 boxes assuming she doesn't camp any Focus, if any warcaster or warjack makes it to melee with her she's just dead. I'd suggest Butcher3 simply because he's got silly nonlinear charge potential.

I don't play Khador myself but I've had the most success fighting Harbinger with EMakeda/Molik Karn, which is similarly reliant on getting a heavy hitter that can get into melee nonlinearly with a long threat range into a fight with Harbinger.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Harbinger is brutal, but she's also very, very fragile. I've played against her a number of times, the biggest problem you'll find is her feat. It'll shred Iron Fangs since it hits them when they finish their advance so the first model to move won't get the benefit of shield wall, dies, and then the next won't have anyone to claim shield wall off of and dies. Her feat is a total death sentence to light infantry unless you simply stop moving.

If I were fighting Harbinger with Khador I'd go for one of the army's many absurdly fast assassination tricks and go for Harbinger herself. She's a 14/14 with 17 boxes assuming she doesn't camp any Focus, if any warcaster or warjack makes it to melee with her she's just dead. I'd suggest Butcher3 simply because he's got silly nonlinear charge potential.

I don't play Khador myself but I've had the most success fighting Harbinger with EMakeda/Molik Karn, which is similarly reliant on getting a heavy hitter that can get into melee nonlinearly with a long threat range into a fight with Harbinger.


I thought of grabbing B3 from the store army, but wouldn't the Covenant shut me down with no spells if I can't kill it? I mean, granted I might not even need spells to kill her if I can get to her (after all, I can still buy focus and pop my feat), but that shuts down a few of his tricks.

A lot of it might also depend on scenario, if it's one where I can hunker down with the Pikemen in a zone, I can basically ignore a turn and shoot his stuff until the feat goes away. If it's that one with the three flags spread out, that could suck.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 17:53:05


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Ok, here is the basic idea of how a competitive Harbinger list will play.

Her feat is one of her primary control tools. She'll use it to lock you out of the scenario early so she can grab it and hold, and she's very good at holding due to Martyrdom.

Generally, if she goes first, she'll pop feat on top of 2. If she goes second, she'll pop it on bottom of 1. Rarely, if she goes first she may pop it on turn 1 to lock you out even harder.

That means you have 1 turn to run your infantry as far forward as possible. Then you'll be sitting there for a turn.

I should explain how to properly resolve her feat, it gets done incorrectly a lot. When a unit activates and her feat is up, obviously he is not obligated to show you where her control area is. So the only way to properly resolve the feat is to put a token where each model begins its movement. Then, once the entire model or unit has finished all its movement, then you check for feat damage. Only after you are committed to movement, and have finished all movement for that unit/model, do you check for feat damage. Then you move on to the next unit. Obviously, if a unit clearly moves away or is clearly outside her control then you don't need to check.


Long ranged guns(>10" are the best way to kill Harbinger. She'll often only be on 6-7 health and little focus if you've been forcing martyrdoms. If you don't have guns to threaten her, she can safely keep her troops alive while you uselessly try to kill them.

If he's running tier, she'll almost certainly be behind a wall. So you'll be needing to deal with Def18. The reason you need to have ranges longer than 10" is because if you don't then Awe will make her Def20 against your shooting.

On the subject of Martyrdom. She can, if she isn't being threatened by shooting, safely martyr around 7 models a turn, more or less depending on how his D3s treat him. Because of this, if any assassination hinges on you removing specific models from his army to clear a lane will NOT succeed. She can just martyr that one model blocking the charge and stay safe. Don't even bother if she's got close to full health.

The Covenant does stop Butcher 3 in his tracks. If the list has the book in it its almost an auto-loss for B3 if the Menoth player knows what he's doing. It cuts his assassination threat in half, and eliminates his infantry munching completely. In Steamroller, if one of the Protectorate lists has the Covenant, never drop B3 unless you are forced to.

Butcher doesn't need his spells to kill Harbinger, but he does need them to get to her.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Purged Thrall





FL

A quick assassination is always good, but she tends to get squishier as the game goes on if you force her to martyr to keep guys alive. If you can weather the feat turn and put pressure on her it'll be easier to take her down.

Her feat also only hurts you if you end closer than you started, so you can move in a curved line kind of way to reposition a bit if need be.
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 novaspike wrote:

Her feat also only hurts you if you end closer than you started, so you can move in a curved line kind of way to reposition a bit if need be.


Yes, you can move in a circle, but you won't know if you succeeded until its too late.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
I should explain how to properly resolve her feat, it gets done incorrectly a lot. When a unit activates and her feat is up, obviously he is not obligated to show you where her control area is. So the only way to properly resolve the feat is to put a token where each model begins its movement. Then, once the entire model or unit has finished all its movement, then you check for feat damage. Only after you are committed to movement, and have finished all movement for that unit/model, do you check for feat damage. Then you move on to the next unit. Obviously, if a unit clearly moves away or is clearly outside her control then you don't need to check.


Question: The feat says "...advancing enemy models that end their movement in Harbinger's control area closer to her than they began...", the rules for units say "...troopers can move in any order..." implying it's not simultaneous. It looks to me like Harbinger hits each model in a unit after the individual model finishes moving but before the next model moves, but you've said you finish moving a unit? Is there an FAQ I'm missing?

This is actually an important question, if you can finish moving a unit before she starts hitting you Iron Fangs are suddenly a lot more useful against her.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 19:14:36


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Its because models in units do not end their movement until all models have finished moving.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







WayneTheGame wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Harbinger is brutal, but she's also very, very fragile. I've played against her a number of times, the biggest problem you'll find is her feat. It'll shred Iron Fangs since it hits them when they finish their advance so the first model to move won't get the benefit of shield wall, dies, and then the next won't have anyone to claim shield wall off of and dies. Her feat is a total death sentence to light infantry unless you simply stop moving.

If I were fighting Harbinger with Khador I'd go for one of the army's many absurdly fast assassination tricks and go for Harbinger herself. She's a 14/14 with 17 boxes assuming she doesn't camp any Focus, if any warcaster or warjack makes it to melee with her she's just dead. I'd suggest Butcher3 simply because he's got silly nonlinear charge potential.

I don't play Khador myself but I've had the most success fighting Harbinger with EMakeda/Molik Karn, which is similarly reliant on getting a heavy hitter that can get into melee nonlinearly with a long threat range into a fight with Harbinger.


I thought of grabbing B3 from the store army, but wouldn't the Covenant shut me down with no spells if I can't kill it? I mean, granted I might not even need spells to kill her if I can get to her (after all, I can still buy focus and pop my feat), but that shuts down a few of his tricks.

A lot of it might also depend on scenario, if it's one where I can hunker down with the Pikemen in a zone, I can basically ignore a turn and shoot his stuff until the feat goes away. If it's that one with the three flags spread out, that could suck.


Hadn't thought of the Covenant, my usual opponent reads no knockdown and makes his folks Tough most of the time. It makes the nonlinear movement harder since you don't have Energizer or Impending Doom, do you have Widowmakers? They should be able to plink down the book in a turn or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Its because models in units do not end their movement until all models have finished moving.


This is the point that's confusing me, I can't see why or any rule that says so. It triggers when a model's movement ends, and a model's movement ends when it stops moving, nothing in the unit rules, the activation rules, Harbinger's rules, or the errata says it would wait for a unit to finish activating. Can you point me to a page reference?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 novaspike wrote:

Her feat also only hurts you if you end closer than you started, so you can move in a curved line kind of way to reposition a bit if need be.


Yes, you can move in a circle, but you won't know if you succeeded until its too late.


It's easy enough to eyeball, you just have to end further from Harbinger than where you began. If you draw a hypothetical line from Harbinger to the midpoint of your move and then draw a hypothetical line perpendicular to that line and then stay on that line you're not ending close and don't get hit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 19:25:16


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

It has to do with timing. If a trooper's movement ended before another trooper's began, then you could hypothetically begin another model's combat action before resolving another guy's movement.

The only way the timing works is if every model ends its movement simultaneously.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Yes, I have Widowmakers. We aren't playing a cutthroat competitive tournament game, but I still want to maybe pretend I am so I know what I'm up against.

It's almost a certainty that he'll have a full unit of Bastions and the Seneschal, so they are going to be a tough nut to crack with Sanguine Bond, the heal from the Seneschal AND Martyrdom. If he runs 2x Paladins with Vilmon, that's also going to be tough since they can be high ARM and/or immune to nonmagic weapons as well as being able to be Martyrd , although if he's running them up he might be out of his range.

If I play the Rifle Corps, that's a 14" gun, the Nyss will be 12" (what I wouldn't give for Snipe...), but if I"m reading the feat right I couldn't cheese Zephyr since I'd have to stop moving, shoot, then move back so her feat would trigger before I get to attack (since it's specifically after movement, not after activation), so I'm likely going to have to just not move for that turn, and hopefully he has enough things in range that I can Aim and shoot at.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 19:52:05


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Zephyr is an advance, so it actually would trigger the feat. If you did normal movement and Zephyred you would actually trigger the feat twice, assuming you survived the first pow14. Side step and any out of activation advance will also trigger it as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 19:53:21


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Grey Templar wrote:
Zephyr is an advance, so it actually would trigger the feat.


Yeah, I actually meant advance 3", shoot, then Zephyr back so I wasn't closer to her, but her feat would trigger after the first move. Her feat is worded really oddly in that it applies individually. As an aside, how on earth that caster is balanced is beyond me, she seems more powerful than virtually everything else just based on having 10 (!) focus and a ridiculous feat, and that's before you factor in the craziness of Cataclysm. An auto hit AOE5 POW 20? What the feth? That's like the special ability that the dragon had in the Scars of Caen league.

I get she's not unbeatable, but good lord it seems Menoth and Cygnar are the posterboys for everything in the game with all their powerhouse combos and tricks. Tons of denial, good infantry, great jacks and can run a lot of them, and crazy casters to boot?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 20:00:37


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Cataclysm is only pow 20 if you are withing an inch of Harbinger. Otherwise it loses 1 pow for each full inch. it also costs 4 focus.

Her feat is strong against infantry, but nobody is making you advance. and it is of little use against something like MMM or any legion list.

She is also squishy as all get out. Def14(16) and arm14 dies to a stiff breeze. Sure, she can camp to 24, but then she isn't doing anything.

She is in the top 5 for sure, but she's not broken.


As for "Power house combos and tricks", you haven't been on the receiving end of Denny, or MMM, or Fist of Haalak, or Bradigus's Tier, etc...

The game is full of powerful combos. The Winter Guard Death Star, Karchev's Power Slide assassination, double BDIFP, B3, etc... Khador's got power in spades.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 20:03:08


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
It has to do with timing. If a trooper's movement ended before another trooper's began, then you could hypothetically begin another model's combat action before resolving another guy's movement.

The only way the timing works is if every model ends its movement simultaneously.


...? That wouldn't make the hit from Harbinger's feat wait, it happens as soon as each model stops moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WayneTheGame wrote:
I get she's not unbeatable, but good lord it seems Menoth and Cygnar are the posterboys for everything in the game with all their powerhouse combos and tricks. Tons of denial, good infantry, great jacks and can run a lot of them, and crazy casters to boot?


Grass is greener. I'd kill for anything half as cool as Khador's stock of character warjacks/nightmarish warcasters. Old Witch literally has Harbinger's feat only better (yes, yes, it's weaker with the smaller control area, but still).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 20:03:45


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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
It has to do with timing. If a trooper's movement ended before another trooper's began, then you could hypothetically begin another model's combat action before resolving another guy's movement.

The only way the timing works is if every model ends its movement simultaneously.


...? That wouldn't make the hit from Harbinger's feat wait, it happens as soon as each model stops moving.


If it did work like that, then you would have what I suggested would happen happen. Thats why movement doesn't end till all the models have finished moving, from a game mechanic perspective.

Thats why you don't resolve the pow14 till all the models are in their final position. So you do get Defensive Line or Shieldwall.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
It has to do with timing. If a trooper's movement ended before another trooper's began, then you could hypothetically begin another model's combat action before resolving another guy's movement.

The only way the timing works is if every model ends its movement simultaneously.


...? That wouldn't make the hit from Harbinger's feat wait, it happens as soon as each model stops moving.


If it did work like that, then you would have what I suggested would happen happen. Thats why movement doesn't end till all the models have finished moving, from a game mechanic perspective.

Thats why you don't resolve the pow14 till all the models are in their final position. So you do get Defensive Line or Shieldwall.


The feat says when a model ends its movement, not when a unit ends its movement. A model ends its movement when it stops moving, not when it and the rest of its unit stop moving.

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Models in units act differently from models in general.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
Models in units act differently from models in general.


But there's nothing in the unit rules that says models in a unit don't finish moving until the entire unit does. Can you point me to a page reference?

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It'll take a little digging. Be back in a little bit.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

So anyways, Feat turn is going to suck, hopefully I can weather the storm. I think my list is going to be my best chance since I can still shoot at him from range, even if I can't move my Pikemen.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




When I see menoth, I reach for irusk (either variety). Both offer excellent control tools. Inhospitable ground (almost a feat on a stick) on the former ruins menoths day, and epic irusks feat stops them dead in their tracks.

Both have great damage and survivability buffs as well.

The trick with control casters is to control right back. Stop them dead in their tracks and prevent them jumping ahead with theirs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 20:40:05


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

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Finally found my book.

Anyway, it appears I was actually wrong. Models in units do end their movement before the next model gets to move. So feat will trigger before you move the next model. So the first model will never benefit from shield wall.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Hierarch




Pueblo, CO

There's always digging out some good ol' fireproof troops, sincethey would ignore harbinger's feat entirely. Assault kommandos and irusk's character jack care not for fire damage rolls.

Things I've gotten other players to admit...
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AKs have bigger problems in this matchup though. They're already an abysmal Mat/Rat5. They become Mat and Rat3 if effected by Awe. Sad pandas.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
AKs have bigger problems in this matchup though. They're already an abysmal Mat/Rat5. They become Mat and Rat3 if effected by Awe. Sad pandas.


Menoth's Defense isn't exactly sky-high and they do have the gas bombs, though. It might be worthwhile to look into, though they don't have the POW to face down a force that's mostly Bastions and Knights.

Also AKs are MAT6. Not going to make a lot of difference but worth noting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But this is all a moot point since the OP's list of models doesn't include either AKs or Torch. How much RFP is in Khador?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 23:59:03


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Thats been my experience facing a skilled user of AKs and Strakov. They're decently durable, but the lack of offensive output really kills them. It usually takes 2-3 AKs to kill one TFG or Errant, and thats not a trade rate Khador can afford.

Needing 7s to hit Def12 isn't a great position to be in, especially when you have pretty low pow as well. Their shooting is ok, but thats about it. Then you stack any sort of buffs or debuffs in the mix and its even worse.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Epic Irusk seems like he might work with little or no variation, and while I've only used him a handful of times I really like what he brings. Might try him and see how it goes.

I could drop the Widowmakers and add in a Mortar, or keep the Widowmakers but drop the War Dog. I'm wondering if I have enough shooting between the WGRC and Nyss, although Sniper seems like it would be very useful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/10 03:10:14


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh



where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

Vlad's jack list would be a decent drop...like the guys said, I think Irusk might be better if you're "good" with him...


 
   
Made in us
Hierarch




Pueblo, CO

WayneTheGame wrote:

I could drop the Widowmakers and add in a Mortar, or keep the Widowmakers but drop the War Dog. I'm wondering if I have enough shooting between the WGRC and Nyss, although Sniper seems like it would be very useful.

Widowmakers with the defensive buff spell (iron skin, iirc) are almost always a good pick. Stick them in some woods, and they're nearly impossible to hit. They don't do much to high-armor models on their own, but they handle cleanup well, and can hold down an objective if need be.

Things I've gotten other players to admit...
Foldalot: Pariahs can sometimes be useful 
   
 
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