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Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





Anybody else think GW is running out of ideas? We've seen almost an entire cycle of codex updating (2012 onward) where armies gained very little.

It started off well enough with Dark Angels getting a big influx of new units and models to represent them; Chaos got its Daemon Engines, Cultists, Warp Talons, Dark Apostle etc., Space Marines got their Centurions, 2 new tanks etc., Tyranids got their FMCs, new MCs (Haruspex, Exocrine), and such, but pretty much February 2013 onward the amount of new stuff released with every codex update has been declining. Eldar and Tau mostly got a new flyer model and a new MC, Astra Militarum got a new transport vehicle nobody really plays and some new models for their Stormtroopers, we've seen Imperial Knights and a post-release Tyranid wave, but at least from 7th edition onward many codexes have been updated (Orks, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Necrons) with almost nothing new gained at all except perhaps one or two clampack HQs remodeled, but practically no new units added.


Now if you remember the last codex update cycle (2004-2011) we've had every codex release accompanied by a slew of new units and major overhauls to the miniature ranges as well. Imperial Guard for example got all the Leman Russ variants and Artillery tanks, PBS, Regimental Advisors etc. in the 2009 IG update. Necrons and Grey Knights became armies with a big variety of models rather than a niche/monotonous limited range (though GK did revert back to that lol). When you consider the fact that GW is now only primarily focusing on pumping out new publications rather than redoing miniatures or coming up with new units, do you think they're running out of ideas?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/29 13:15:04


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 Ravenous D wrote:
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Made in gb
Stitch Counter





The North

A monster can only get so big before it collapses under its own weight. In many respects 40K could do with shedding a lot of the excessive rules.

Adding new modes and rules and models with special rules will end up making the game even more of a chore to play through.

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Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

I'm not so sure it's a lack of creativity, more that most of what can be done has been done. Look at the last 4 codexes that have had no model release: You have GK (fully plastic range), BA (fully plastic range, plenty of unique units), DE (now an all-plastic range?) and Crons (all plastic bar Flayed Ones and Crypteks). They also all have pretty much every niche in the army filled; what more can you add without going too over the top? Bigger versions of existing stuff? Completely overdone models that seem to generate a lot of dislike (Logan Sleigh, for example, which I love but many hate)?

Instead, they are doing completely new stuff. Look at the new Harley releases. They are getting a new vehicle, possibly new characters, as well as the basic squad redone in plastic and maybe plastic Jetbikes as well. And then we have rumours of an Ad Mech army in some form coming in March... The effort is going towards expanding into entirely new stuff and opening up far more variety, rather than over-filling codexes with redundant units. As far as I'm concerned, this is a far better approach.

 
   
Made in de
Grey Knight Psionic Stormraven Pilot





Atm it seems to me that GW is reconciling:


The new codices are actually quite different from what we have seen before, but instead of new models, most changes seem to be of a technical nature.

Streamlining of old rules, new unit formats, and removal of units that fill a similiar niche (AM has been hit hard by that).




I think it's less about running out of ideas, and more about trying to fix a system which the community considers notoriously broken one the one hand, and changing the buisness modell behind it towards a more profitable one one the other (keyword: chapterhouse lawsuit).

Probably not a coincedence that a lot of the big changes happened shortly after the old CEO retired.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

It's more likely in the face of diminishing sales they're going back to old stuff in the hope that nostalgia is powerful enough to lure cash from people's pockets.

Looking at the Harly thread, it seems to be working.

Plus, taking the rumours at face value, we could be seeing a whole new faction in the shape of Ad Mech in the near future and we've seen a new faction in the shape of Knights recently too (even if it did take FW to do a proper Codex for them)

I don't think they're short of ideas - where I would take issue is the execution of those ideas seems to be poor, but I suspect that's more to do with the pressures of producing stuff to a deadline and any real imperative from management to produce quality, than a lack of ideas.

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Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

 Paradigm wrote:
DE (now an all-plastic range?)


Except for incubi, mandrakes, grotesques, and the beastmaster unit. So not really an "all-plastic range", no.

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"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

 Sidstyler wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:
DE (now an all-plastic range?)


Except for incubi, mandrakes, grotesques, and the beastmaster unit. So not really an "all-plastic range", no.

Hence the '?'. Thanks for the clarification.

Either way, I would still say the range is pretty 'complete', in that anything new they added would really be taking the role of something already there, or too out-of-character for the army.

 
   
Made in cn
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





I'd assumed the recent reduction in product variety is due to the economic of scale -- there are probably products that are less popular than GW had initially anticipated, therefore they had to scale down their production to reduce outputs. Because of the fixed cost of maintaining a production line operational, average unit cost increases, therefore reducing marginal benefits.

Whereas if the same fixed cost cannot be rid of (usually due to the sunk cost fallacy, but could also be because said equipments can be used in other ways such as --) it can be used to produce more popular products, with little to no increase in total fixed cost to the company, the average cost per product can be further reduced, therefore selling products at a lower average cost, and therefore higher profit.

This is of course, assuming they know what will be popular, which of course almost nobody does. On the other hand, IMO they should really just give all these products to Citadel Finecast or Forgeworld, because despite a higher average production cost (handmade, lower quantity), it requires less initial input (equipments), which due to the smaller scale, actually nets a higher profit than if they built a whole production line for those models. However, since I've no idea the actual scale of those two sub-companies this opinion may well be invalid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 14:44:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Rochester, MN

I feel a sense of relief that everything has been updated for 7th. I hope they go focus on Warhammer Fantasy for awhile and let us play unmolested for awhile.

The most fun I have with the hobby is in those in-between-releases time, when everyone has familiarized themselves with the current ruleset, models and fluff.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I suspect the main reason is that they don't want to spend the money to produce new units and they also don't want rules to exist for items they aren't going to make because of 3rd parties that can fill that gap.

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Made in gb
Tough Tyrant Guard



UK

From a Tyranid perspective was a great year. Sure the codex itself was lukewarm, but the Rising Leviathan dataslates were great fun and SoB: Leviathan is awesome.

They also really went to town with the Tyranid fluff last year. Leviathan Rising was (once again) really well written, and SoB: Leviathan really ramps up the credibility of the Hive Fleets as an apocalyptic threat.

So no, from my perspective I've not seen a drop in creativity at all.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





They finally have every army mostly up to date for an edition and they're decried as running out of ideas?

Oh internet, you so crazy.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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Made in dk
Infiltrating Prowler






 Paradigm wrote:
I'm not so sure it's a lack of creativity, more that most of what can be done has been done. Look at the last 4 codexes that have had no model release: You have GK (fully plastic range), BA (fully plastic range, plenty of unique units), DE (now an all-plastic range?) and Crons (all plastic bar Flayed Ones and Crypteks). They also all have pretty much every niche in the army filled; what more can you add without going too over the top? Bigger versions of existing stuff? Completely overdone models that seem to generate a lot of dislike (Logan Sleigh, for example, which I love but many hate)?

Instead, they are doing completely new stuff. Look at the new Harley releases. They are getting a new vehicle, possibly new characters, as well as the basic squad redone in plastic and maybe plastic Jetbikes as well. And then we have rumours of an Ad Mech army in some form coming in March... The effort is going towards expanding into entirely new stuff and opening up far more variety, rather than over-filling codexes with redundant units. As far as I'm concerned, this is a far better approach.


I agree with this (except the part about like the Logan Sleigh ).
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 DarknessEternal wrote:
They finally have every army mostly up to date for an edition and they're decried as running out of ideas?

Oh internet, you so crazy.


This.

If anything the new release structure (the tyranid data slates, Harlequins etc.) shows plenty of creativity and a most welcome embracing of a a new more flexible release pattern.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







They're in damage control mode, trying to reign in the craziness that came from releasing a new large kit for every army and making sure it was competitive (which led to broken/silly units). Once everything's up to 7e they're probably going to start bringing out more new units again.

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Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

It started off well enough with Dark Angels getting a big influx of new units and models to represent them; Chaos got its Daemon Engines, Cultists, Warp Talons, Dark Apostle etc., Space Marines got their Centurions, 2 new tanks etc., Tyranids got their FMCs, new MCs (Haruspex, Exocrine), and such, but pretty much February 2013 onward the amount of new stuff released with every codex update has been declining. Eldar and Tau mostly got a new flyer model and a new MC, Astra Militarum got a new transport vehicle nobody really plays and some new models for their Stormtroopers, we've seen Imperial Knights and a post-release Tyranid wave,


I dunno but to me thats a fairly decent and interesting collection of models and releases.
The 2nd Nid wave release was great and the Knights despite various levels of hate or angst were welcome too.
With limited production capacity, GW trying to limit 3rd party "incursions" and some armies just not needing anything new (no one wants a "for the sake of it" release), I think they've done pretty well so far in 7th.
Wolves also got he new flyer and logan, orks got the flashgits and Nauts and theres a healthy release of Apoc stlye units if that floats your boat too.

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Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Raleigh, NC

Fantome wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
They finally have every army mostly up to date for an edition and they're decried as running out of ideas?

Oh internet, you so crazy.


This.

If anything the new release structure (the tyranid data slates, Harlequins etc.) shows plenty of creativity and a most welcome embracing of a a new more flexible release pattern.


The new tyranids I would agree with, but the harlequins just got pulled out of the DE book (and presumably the future Eldar) and will reappear with two or so new units and a (probably) $50 book. I don't know if I want to lump this into the category of "new ideas" since they've done this with a couple of things so far and taking things out of a book seems to show the point the OP was making- repackaging to make more from the existing customer base doesn't make for new ideas.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/29 21:45:52


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

I don't think it's fair to say GW has run out of creativity.

The problem is twofold. First, they're horrendous at execution, and their efforts of late have been far more "DLC" oriented than anything else, with very little effort or thought going into functionality and background sourcing. Second, their writing has become increasingly poor and both simplistic and over the top crazy.

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Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





I think it rather might be GW is focusing on a new release stragety. we'll have to see if Tyranids are a harbringer for new times to come, but let's step back a year. about a year ago we had codex Tyranids, followed by IKs, AM and orks. 'nids got a decent number of new units and kits, the AM got a new transport that IMHO missed the mark a little as the autcanons brought the price up a little high, but over all the idea was clearly a low cost APC to compliment the higher points cost Chimera IFV. and a re-working of storm troopers (who also got their own micro 'dex)

with 7th edition Orks got a total of 1 new unit (2 if you wanna count the gorkanought and morkanought as seperate units) Space Wolves didn't get anything except for a sled for the chapter master, and following that no codexes seemed to get anything new. however during 7th edition tyranids got a major update wave. (I wonder if those models where intended for codex tyranids but they didn't finish them in time and thus held it for a post release second wave) my guess is GW was eager to get their codexes out the door, and with the rise of the internet and the sucess of some of their "post codex minis" (something they'd experimented with as early as the storm talon) GW has been feeling less constrained to "have something new to put in a codex" feeling they can release the stuff after the fact.

we'll have to see how it goes. cause some armies definatly could use some hole plugging. Grey Knights being a major example I can think of.


I don't think it's that they're out of creativity then, but rather that they feel their creative cycle of no longer bound to codex releases

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 22:06:07


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





 Accolade wrote:
The new tyranids I would agree with, but the harlequins just got pulled out of the DE book (and presumably the future Eldar) and will reappear with two or so new units and a (probably) $50 book. I don't know if I want to lump this into the category of "new ideas" since they've done this with a couple of things so far and taking things out of a book seems to show the point the OP was making- repackaging to make more from the existing customer base doesn't make for new ideas.


Heh, since we already have the LotD codex I'm willing to bet they wont be in the next SM book. I'm surprised MT even made it into the AM book given that the MT dex was released a week or so prior to AM.

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 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







GW is basically in "nobody new is starting these games, so we need to suck the veterans dry" mode. Hence the doubling or tripling the price of the rules you need to play your old army, updates to 80s concepts that only grognards care about, etc.

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Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

My thoughts are twofold:

1) They're spreading themselves too thin - with a lot of the more novel/interesting ideas going into supplements, rather than codices.

2) They seem to be cutting flavour, rather than trimming fat. Many of the rules they've cut were very flavourful - and far more interesting than the bland USRs that replaced them. The problem with USRs is that they quickly lose their uniqueness when overused. IWND was great when it was rare. Now, when every other unit can get it by some means or other, it's too commonplace to represent anything meaningful. And, some USRs just aren't suitable for some armies. e.g. a lot of DE weapons had their effects changed to 'Concussive'. But, this is both a useless mechanic for them, and also seems almost counter to their flavour.

If they really want to simplify the game, then it's the core rules they need to address.

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You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Vaktathi wrote:I don't think it's fair to say GW has run out of creativity.

The problem is twofold. First, they're horrendous at execution, and their efforts of late have been far more "DLC" oriented than anything else, with very little effort or thought going into functionality and background sourcing. Second, their writing has become increasingly poor and both simplistic and over the top crazy.

lord_blackfang wrote:GW is basically in "nobody new is starting these games, so we need to suck the veterans dry" mode. Hence the doubling or tripling the price of the rules you need to play your old army, updates to 80s concepts that only grognards care about, etc.


Agree with both.

I think the "DLC" strategy is clear. GW is currently on a trend of declining sales and profits, so they've looked at another market and the cash-grab formulas it has developed in recent years (videogames and DLCs) and is trying to imitate that. Thus the digital-only releases (priced as if they were physical hardcover books) aimed at milking the veterans.

In fact, you could say their entire strategy is currently aimed at milking the veterans, because with their current prices it's difficult to get the attention of prospective new players.

The fluff from the latest 5 years or so has been downright silly in both Fantasy and 40k. Which makes sense as it's the same bunch of unimaginative goons writing everything. The main offender already left the company but the ones who remain aren't much better.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

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Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Yeah, it really feels like right about the time 5E started, their fluff has really just gone consistently downhill. The writing has read more and more like juvenile fanfiction, and the way GW laid out their books and the pictures they took of models increasingly looked like catalog displays more than gameboards.

Just picking up and reading some of the older 2E/3E/4E books you get a totally different feel and level of enthusiasm for the game and its background than you do from the newer books.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in id
Fresh-Faced New User




 lord_blackfang wrote:
GW is basically in "nobody new is starting these games, so we need to suck the veterans dry" mode. Hence the doubling or tripling the price of the rules you need to play your old army, updates to 80s concepts that only grognards care about, etc.


I'm not so sure i can agree with this. Their new boxsets for armies seems to encourage new players and also entices vets to start a new army or expand their current range for what i reckon. The Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce for instance.... or the Tyranid Swarm... or The Grey Knight Nemesis Vanguard or maybe Cadian/Catachan Defence Force. All those boxsets gave a unit for free usually so it is not bad either. On a discount store those prices are slashed 20% off too most likely.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




On a discount store those prices are slashed 20% off too most likely.

Which would be maybe fine, if those "extra"units were actualy useful and GW didn't force FLGS to sign up a contract that they will never sell stuff under GW price and add a limitation of 1 per store and to get more you have to order 1 for each army, making it less likely that a store will have more then one.
   
Made in id
Fresh-Faced New User




Makumba wrote:
On a discount store those prices are slashed 20% off too most likely.

Which would be maybe fine, if those "extra"units were actualy useful and GW didn't force FLGS to sign up a contract that they will never sell stuff under GW price and add a limitation of 1 per store and to get more you have to order 1 for each army, making it less likely that a store will have more then one.


What is useful? The models can be used? Or the models kickass or tournament worthy like Wave Serpent or Riptide... or at least pretty close to that level? Because if it's 2nd reason... yeah, you got me there, i can't say anything. But if it's the first one... every model can be used.. HELL even for paperweights like my Pyrovores . Honestly for me, if it's not Pyrovore level of derptitude inside the box, most likely it can be used. For all those boxsets i gave as example on top, for a starting point army, they are decent if not great... and gives you essential units with some extras on it for future expansion too. Sure you can argue that Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce boxset gave you a dud in Captain.... or maybe the Dreadnought, but the rest of the boxsets are fine. As for contract, now i can't proclaim i know what the contract looks like, but i did saw more than 1 box of the aforementioned boxsets i said on top when it was released. Some of them are out of stock now or direct only, i give you that. A quick search on some discount stores though, gave me access to those boxsets and more than 1 too with 20% discount.

Anyhow, what i'm saying is... i'm disagreeing with the notion that GW is only concerned with Veteran players only. That's all
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





narrative_forger wrote:
Makumba wrote:
On a discount store those prices are slashed 20% off too most likely.

Which would be maybe fine, if those "extra"units were actualy useful and GW didn't force FLGS to sign up a contract that they will never sell stuff under GW price and add a limitation of 1 per store and to get more you have to order 1 for each army, making it less likely that a store will have more then one.


What is useful? The models can be used? Or the models kickass or tournament worthy like Wave Serpent or Riptide... or at least pretty close to that level? Because if it's 2nd reason... yeah, you got me there, i can't say anything. But if it's the first one... every model can be used.. HELL even for paperweights like my Pyrovores . Honestly for me, if it's not Pyrovore level of derptitude inside the box, most likely it can be used. For all those boxsets i gave as example on top, for a starting point army, they are decent if not great... and gives you essential units with some extras on it for future expansion too. Sure you can argue that Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce boxset gave you a dud in Captain.... or maybe the Dreadnought, but the rest of the boxsets are fine. As for contract, now i can't proclaim i know what the contract looks like, but i did saw more than 1 box of the aforementioned boxsets i said on top when it was released. Some of them are out of stock now or direct only, i give you that. A quick search on some discount stores though, gave me access to those boxsets and more than 1 too with 20% discount.

Anyhow, what i'm saying is... i'm disagreeing with the notion that GW is only concerned with Veteran players only. That's all

My notion is that GW isn't concerned with Veteran players or new players either. They seem to alienate both with equal vigor while catering to none.



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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




If a model isn't used in games, then it is useless. that is like getting an additional box.

Well good for you. In Poland FLGS can't sell for less then GW calls for the same models, and they are limited to 1 per shop box. If they want to order a second one, they have to order 1 box for every army. Which is a huge problem for new players. For example the IG army is ok, if the lemman russes get converted.But you need 2 to start an army. Which more or less means you have to find 2 stores that have 1 box each. Or order online, which not everyone can do.

And ordering from outside of Poland brings the risk of customs checking the order, and they normaly do as 2 boxs cost a lot. If that happens you get 23% vat for modeling articles add, unless of course your ordering from outside of EU then it could be 23% vat and important tax. Making the box cost more, then if you bought a train ticket to Warsaw and bought them at the GW store there.
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Makumba wrote:
If a model isn't used in games, then it is useless. that is like getting an additional box.


The point being EVERY model can be used and made useful, and if not, is easily converted to something that can be. We get that you play in a hyper--competitive meta where only the best units are ever taken, but this is far from the norm in many other places, so I imagine the vast majority of people manage to get good use out of everything in the box.

 
   
 
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