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I bought the core book the other day and after countless reading, narrowed my faction choice between Cygnar and Retribution.

As far as Cygnar goes, I've grown quite a liking to the trencher units as well as the Cyclone warjack.

Where do I go from here if trying to incorporate the above into a list.

I will almost always be playing for fun, but that doesn't mean I don't want to be competitive.

Thanks.

Trenchers and the Cyclone are generally considered to be fairly poor. That's not to say they can't be made to work, but they generally don't see play in the competitive scene.

If you want to play Trenchers, you have to want it. And I mean really want it. I love my Trenchers personally, but they are definitely in struggle town against several lists.

First off is any list that uses AOEs to scatter continuous effects around. As wonderful as Dig In is, it doesn't help against a caster like epic Feora who will not damage you with the blasts from her jacks, but they'll set you on fire and next turn there will be a depressing Trencher barbecue going on, with nothing you can do about it.

Second is any list that is lightning fast and can engage you before you get to shoot it up. This includes a lot of armies

Third is heavy armour lists. If you have gone all Trenchers you will never be able to kill a Khador clamjack that can in turn spend all game trampling your poor glorious Trenchers into a fine paste. And that's one jack, god help you if you are against an armour skew list like Butcher3 with 3 if those jacks...

Ways around this include epic Haley (unsurprisingly, this is Cygnar after all), but at least this way you can claim that it is in some way thematic, apparently Siege's theme list with Trenchers has some game (more so than out of tier), and that's all that springs to mind. epic Haley does good work for Trenchers by giving them an armour/def buff, more accurate shooting, and if you bring a Stormclad with her that solves some of your armour issues, and Thorn can help you get a telekinesis in to spin around models with shields and what not (looking at you clamjacks)

But really, you'll love your army if you like Trenchers, everyone else at the store will groan, but if you learn how to play them and don't get unlucky match ups (have an alternate drop for Menoth and other people who you know love to play lightning fast/armour skew lists) and you'll have a blinder of a time whenever you win against people who have brought "better" armies. I know I do.

Motyak put it really well.

I'd add that instead of trying to all trencher that you play with one or two units at a time and mix them in with more "standard" things.

And the cyclone is fun, too. But also not super competitive. Something that is fun to mix in, but you'll want other options. When I first played I used a cyclone and defender with Siege. The Defender was a workhorse. The Cyclone was OK. But then I got the Stormwall and it was the best of both worlds. Anyways, depending on what you like about the cyclone you may just want to get a Stormwall. But at least magnetize your warjack kit so you can run it as a defender as well. Not too hard to do if you have any sort of modeling skills.

Cygnar don't actually use their infantry units that much, they are the heaviest users of Merc units because their infantry is somewhat unimpressive. Gun Mages get used heaps, Rangers show up in a few lists, you occasionally see Storm Knights with eHaley and Sword Knights and Precursor Knights see some use with eStryker, but the rest are very rarely used. Its far more common to see Forgeguard, Nyss or Boomhowlers in a Cygnar list. I have literally never seen anyone using Trenchers - they seem like they were supposed to be a multi purpose unit, but they don't really do anything well and they aren't cheap.

The Cyclone is an interesting jack, but isn't used very often. The single reason for this is the Stormwall - it combines the Covering Fire abilities with good damage output from the Big guns and is a significant melee presence as well.

If you are just starting get the Battlebox. pStryker is a bit boring, but battlebox games are by far the best way to learn. Probably get a unit like Gunmages after that so you can learn how infantry work, and from there pick a caster you like and units that work well with them are grow from there.

What about large games? 100+ points? Would I be able to get away with some less than stellar units but make up with others?

I'd like to send the trenchers up and drop smoke then send in some stormblades/gunners.

Would some strong melee warjacks be able to better protect the trenchers?

Yes, but 100+ point games are rare. The game is normally played in the 35-50 point level.

At 100+ points a ton of corner case things become viable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but 100+ point games are rare. The game is normally played in the 35-50 point level.

At 100+ points a ton of corner case things become viable.

I have a decent sized group of wargaming friends and will most likely be building a take at home to better accommodate large point games.

 Storm Shadow wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but 100+ point games are rare. The game is normally played in the 35-50 point level.

At 100+ points a ton of corner case things become viable.

I have a decent sized group of wargaming friends and will most likely be building a take at home to better accommodate large point games.

I think you could totally pull off trenchers at 100pts, last time I played 100pts I used trenchers. The trencher units (normal ones as well as the commandos) problems often times are they are rather expensive given their defensive stats which makes it difficult to win attrition fights with other factions infantry and very difficult to "trade up".

The main thing with trenchers is that you have to find a way to get some work done offensively with them, because they ain't cheap as far as infantry goes. Given their cost you can't afford to just have them use smoke all game, unless you take just min unit or something to keep the costs down.

I'd think PHaley and EHaley would be your best bet for Warcasters that do well with Trenchers because they've got the best tools for slowing the enemy down to give your army more time to shoot them. The Trenchers themselves aren't really well-liked because they're easily countered and don't have a lot of damage output, I've never seen them played so I don't have a lot to tell you about them beyond that stats and Battlecollege seem to indicate they do very little that you can't do less expensively/more effectively elsewhere in the faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Storm Shadow wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but 100+ point games are rare. The game is normally played in the 35-50 point level.

At 100+ points a ton of corner case things become viable.

I have a decent sized group of wargaming friends and will most likely be building a take at home to better accommodate large point games.

100pts isn't a "larger point game", it's crazy big, especially for folks just starting out. It's like hopping into Warhammer and going straight for the Apocalypse rules.

Thanks everyone for the info. A little disheartening that my favorite unit is cannon fodder.

So if I go with my other option, Retribution, I was thinking something along the lines of:

Dawnguard Invictors
Mage Hunter Infiltrators
Stormfall Archers
Arcanist

Something like that for a start? I really like the look of those units.

Also how is the Sphinx?

Best warcaster for the above list if viable?

 Storm Shadow wrote:
Thanks everyone for the info. A little disheartening that my favorite unit is cannon fodder.

So if I go with my other option, Retribution, I was thinking something along the lines of:

Dawnguard Invictors
Mage Hunter Infiltrators
Stormfall Archers
Arcanist

Something like that for a start? I really like the look of those units.

Also how is the Sphinx?

Best warcaster for the above list if viable?

Some reason Ossyan comes to mind. The Sphinx on the other hand goes better with House Shyeel units since its gun help with accuracy for spells casters which House Shyeel units are. It is the cheapest heavy that ret has pt wise but looks solid on paper for its points. I can't much beyond that I don't play ret personally.

So I should just go with the meat and potatoes myrmidon and get the Phoenix?

For Ret there are two heavy jack kits, one for the House Shyeel jacks (Phoenix, Manticore, Hydra etc) and one for the House Vyre jacks (Banshee, Daemon, Sphinx). If you get one of each that covers pretty much all your options starting out. Again I would recommend getting the Battlebox first, it really seems like you are jumping the gun and trying to pick which parts of the faction to buy without even playing a game.

Ret are very different from Cygnar in that all their infantry is good, they just all have different strengths and you have to combine them appropriately to cover everything.
Invictors are a solid unit in both shooting and melee but are our most expensive infantry, they work well with Ravyn, Issyria and Ossyan. Their main weakness is that they can't see Stealth, so with Ravyn and Ossyan you need to take other stuff to cover that (Issyria lets them shoot Stealth for a single turn with her feat).
Infiltrators are probably the trickiest Ret unit to use, I'm not sure if I would recommend grabbing them as a starting unit. They get buffs from Garryth, Ossyan and Issyria. Their main weakness is AOEs and breaking through high ARM.
Stormfalls are a powerful toolbox shooting unit. They are largely self contained so are ok with most of our casters, but are most commonly used with Ravyn and Ossyan. The main thing they can't deal with at all is high ARM models with Stealth (which are fortunately very rare).
Arcanists are almost auto includes, you occasionally don't take one if you only have a single jack, but its very rare to see lists with 2 jacks not maxing out on Arcanists.
The Sphinx is an unusual jack for Ret, the gun effect isn't really that important but it is a cheap heavy jack with reach. The Phoenix, Banshee, Discordia and Imperatus are the most used heavies because you get more bang for your buck with the 10pt options.

Other than the Battlebox I would recommend looking through the casters are picking which one you like. In theory Ossyan is probably the best caster for the combination of units you have listed, but it would have serious issues in some matchups because it can't shoot Stealth models (which is why Riflemen are common with him). Its much easier to work from the ground up starting with the caster than it is starting at the top by picking units and then trying to find a caster that they all work with.

If you like invictors, and aren't too married to the infiltrators, Issyria's theme force with dual Invictors is terrifying. Just terrifying.

 motyak wrote:
If you like invictors, and aren't too married to the infiltrators, Issyria's theme force with dual Invictors is terrifying. Just terrifying.

Yeah its pretty strong, it just tough giving up on the Mage Hunters (mostly the Assassins, but Strike Force are amazing with here as well).

I would strongly recommend against using Issyria as a starting caster though. She is definitely strong, but she is incredibly squishy and has no late game presence whatsoever.

The late game is a killer with her I agree. From memory the only caster who cannot physically do anything without an army. Even the fatman has his damage spells.

Personally not a fan of the sphinx. For one point more you get the Manticore that has a better gun (ROF3), shield and up to P+S18 on two attacks. Yeah you loose reach and that ability on the gun, but you gain so much more.

The issue with the Manticore is that it is a focus hog. Most of the time the Sphinx and the Manticore essentially have the same gun - a single POW12 (the additional effect from the Sphinx isn't a big deal). In fact most of the time the Manticore just puts down Covering Fire because you don't have the focus to make it work.

The loss of the Shield vs ARM19 is a wash, the main factor is that Reach is a big deal and more than makes up for the drop in SPD. For one point less the Sphinx is still a great option.