Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am thinking about starting flames of war. Late war is what my friend want to start with. But still trying to keep units able to play mid war if we want to do that. From all the nations soviets is what interest me the most.
I like diversity and want many different cool units in my army. I have looked around the net about starting late war soviest and all info I find is either about Strelkovy all infantry or Tankovy all tanks. And I dislike their extreme homogeneity.
Look some in the book Red bear. Found that Motor strelkovy seems like a more interesting bet.
So if I want to start late war russians and want a diversified list. Where should I start?
Also I don't want to kill my wallet too much. Therefore trying to be a bit cheaper.

Which rooster should I go for? Which units should I buy for the beginning etc.?

Thanks for the help

The problem with diversity in a Soviet list, is their units work best in giant lumps, which are each expensive, leading to fewer units.

Small units are bad for the Soviets, so you get a fairly formulaic army: two big lumps of motos, 1 big lump of t34s, mortars, a recon platoon, and maybe a tank hunter unit.

sample:
Soviet Motostrelkovy

Mechanised Company, Regular, from Red Bear, page 70

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Batalon HQ (p.71) - CinC Rifle, 2iC Rifle, Batalion Komissar (30 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 14x SMG (240 pts)
- Komissar (15 pts)
- Maksim HMG (25 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 14x SMG (240 pts)
- Maksim HMG (25 pts)

Heavy Mortar Company (p.73) - Command Rifle, 4x 120-PM-38 mortar (95 pts)*

Tankovy Company (p.22) - Command T-34 obr 1942, 9x T-34 obr 1942, 10x SMG Tank Escort (450 pts)
- 5x Upgrade T-34 obr 1942 to T-34/85 obr 1943 (150 pts)

Light Armoured Car Platoon (p.80) - Command BA-64, 5x BA-64 (160 pts)

Tank Killer Company (p.134) - Command SU-85, 4x SU-85 (300 pts)


1730 Points, 6 Platoons

*or 6 82mm mortars.

AndrasOtto wrote:
The problem with diversity in a Soviet list, is their units work best in giant lumps, which are each expensive, leading to fewer units.

Small units are bad for the Soviets, so you get a fairly formulaic army: two big lumps of motos, 1 big lump of t34s, mortars, a recon platoon, and maybe a tank hunter unit.

sample:
Soviet Motostrelkovy

Mechanised Company, Regular, from Red Bear, page 70

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Batalon HQ (p.71) - CinC Rifle, 2iC Rifle, Batalion Komissar (30 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 14x SMG (240 pts)
- Komissar (15 pts)
- Maksim HMG (25 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 14x SMG (240 pts)
- Maksim HMG (25 pts)

Heavy Mortar Company (p.73) - Command Rifle, 4x 120-PM-38 mortar (95 pts)*

Tankovy Company (p.22) - Command T-34 obr 1942, 9x T-34 obr 1942, 10x SMG Tank Escort (450 pts)
- 5x Upgrade T-34 obr 1942 to T-34/85 obr 1943 (150 pts)

Light Armoured Car Platoon (p.80) - Command BA-64, 5x BA-64 (160 pts)

Tank Killer Company (p.134) - Command SU-85, 4x SU-85 (300 pts)


1730 Points, 6 Platoons

*or 6 82mm mortars.

Aren't Motorstrelkovy mechanised?
All the difference I see is that the units have smg instead of rifles compared to Strelkovys.
Would it be a bad decision to give some of the infantry a transport? Maybe like ZIS trucks? Or are trucks useless?

You sound like just the player for a Forward Detachment or Peredovye Otryade. They are in Red Bear, one tank platoon and one infantry platoon are mandatory, lots of good support options. They are considered one of the better lists for soviets. The other thing to look at would be the Hero Lists out of Desperate Measures they require a lot less stuff and represent the veteran soviet units at the end of the war.

If you are playing Soviets, and price is an issue.I would recommend you look at the Plastic Soldier Company.
If you like their 'true scale ' Russian Infantry you can get good value from their army bundles!

The PSC tank kits are great value and have good detail.

So what point limit should one aim for? I see 1900 seems pretty standard for Late war. Should I go for that or start at a stepping stone on the way?
Also regarding the Peredovoye Otryad squad. The HQ comes with a jeep but I can't find any russian jeeps at either Plastic solider or the fow shop. Do they use American/British jeeps? In that case which?

Just want to throw out there that Rota Razvedki are another fun and viable option for combined arms Soviets. They're about the only "true" mechanized army the Soviets have and they're a blast to use.

I was thinking about suggesting Rota as well, the issue with them and all Mech armies for starting players is that they are expensive since you need all the infantry and all their transports which can be the equivalent of two armies to buy and paint.

For the HQ jeep, I would go try and just get a couple american ones. They were lend lease equipment so should be the exact same.

For a Peredovoye Otryad I would suggest
2 units of tanks
1 unit of infantry
1 unit of Su-122 assault guns for blasting infantry
1 unit of Su-100s for killing tanks
1 unit of Spetsnaz or armoured cars for recon

That gives you a variety of models and should be fairly competitive. I have heard that using Sherman 76s works very well but I personally like the look of T-34s. Around here most people play 1750 points despite 1900 being the "official" amount. Starting out I would probably look at 1500, that would give you a good game but not be as overwhelming to start with.

 Allot wrote:
So what point limit should one aim for? I see 1900 seems pretty standard for Late war.

1,900 points isn't really 'standard'. That is just the points total for the 2014 - 2015 North American tournament season. Last year it was 1,650 points. Next year it will be a different points value. The 'standard' points values seem to be either 1,500 or 1,750 points.

sultansean wrote:
I was thinking about suggesting Rota as well, the issue with them and all Mech armies for starting players is that they are expensive since you need all the infantry and all their transports which can be the equivalent of two armies to buy and paint.

For the HQ jeep, I would go try and just get a couple american ones. They were lend lease equipment so should be the exact same.

For a Peredovoye Otryad I would suggest
2 units of tanks
1 unit of infantry
1 unit of Su-122 assault guns for blasting infantry
1 unit of Su-100s for killing tanks
1 unit of Spetsnaz or armoured cars for recon

That gives you a variety of models and should be fairly competitive. I have heard that using Sherman 76s works very well but I personally like the look of T-34s. Around here most people play 1750 points despite 1900 being the "official" amount. Starting out I would probably look at 1500, that would give you a good game but not be as overwhelming to start with.

Looked around and how is something like this?

Compulsory
5 t-34
2 platoons of tank riders
HQ in jeeps

other:
2 Katusya
5 SU-100
4 BA-64
a bunch of ZIS trucks
end up about 1500

5 T-34s are a weak unit, and you get a price break if you buy more. I would lean towards getting 20 T-34s or around 15 and make some of them T34-85s. This list is always attack so you need to be able to press the enemy. If you want to take two platoons of infantry and play more defensively I think Stelkovy is a better option.

ompulsory Motostrelkovy Batalon HQ (p.71) - CinC Rifle, 2iC Rifle, Batalion Komissar (30 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 14x SMG (240 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 7x SMG (130 pts)

Heavy Mortar Company (p.73) - Command Rifle, 4x 120-PM-38 mortar (95 pts)

Tankovy Company (p.22) - Command T-34 obr 1942, 5x T-34 obr 1942 (245 pts)

Transporter Platoon (p.137) - Command 3-ton truck, 6x 3-ton truck (10 pts)

Light Armoured Car Platoon (p.80) - Command BA-64, 4x BA-64 (135 pts)

Sapper Company (p.135) - Command Pioneer Rifle, 10x Pioneer Rifle (185 pts)
- Supply 3-ton truck (25 pts)

Tank Killer Company (p.134) - Command SU-85, 4x SU-85 (300 pts)

Anti-aircraft Platoon (p.23) - Command DShK AA truck, 2x DShK AA truck (55 pts)

Air Support (p.141) - Limited Il-2 Shturmovik (200 pts)


1650 Points, 9 Platoons

Looks like a solid start to me. Painting up all that infantry is going to be a challenge though!

My one small recommendation would be to drop one of the armoured cars and add the Maksims to you infantry units for a bit of long range shooting, for when you are defending.

Also I wouldn't waste too much time on the trucks to begin with, you will probably rarely use them. Also I don't think they count as a platoon for force moral.

Couple thoughts.

1. Playing air in a mechanized or armor list is risky. In order for air to be successful, your units have to be at least 16 inches away from the placement of the aircraft stand at the time the aircraft tries to hit. This is after the movement phase, so you can move your units out of the way if possible.

The problem arrises that many times the axis that a unit has to move away from the stand placement is back towards your own table edge, forcing you to "retreat" when your mission requirements would typically have you attacking as a mech or armor list.

So it becomes a dance...place the stand within AA range? Shoot at a lower value target? Miss entirely?

Aircraft has its uses, but you need to weigh carefully what you are expecting it to accomplish with how your list will have to play in order to win.

2. Soviet lists rarely have any units that perform double duty. Americans have Priests which 75% of the time make for great artilery, but that 25% they can also roll up as mobile breakthrough guns, driving out dug in infantry. Brits have Crocodiles, that are decent AT platforms with good armor, but also very effective at digging out infantry due to flametank status.

Soviets? This is your rifle. Don't get delusions of granduer and think you are some kind of assault infantry. Those boys get SMGs. Same with the assault guns. That SU-85? Distinctly lacking in anything related to a machine gun. Don't go thinking its an anti-infantry platform. It's hull mounted gun is even useless in defensive fire against infantry. (hull mounted main weapons cannot fire at infantry that are assaulting).

Soviets have big units, but also need to have them support each other to accomplish a goal. This typically has them looking for diamonds in the rough in unit selection.

A #1 diamond that I have found is the SU-122. It's a MG-less assault gun, so it needs to be protected from infantry attacks, but what it does bring perfectly complements the infantry it is to support. 2/10/2+ volleyfire breakthrough gun. What does this mean? It means it fires 2 AT 10 shots at tanks that might be assaulting infantry it is within 8 inches of. AT10 2+ against usually side armore of 5 or 6 is good odds. 2 shots with a breakthrough gun means that when it supports infantry on that attack, it doesn't have to worry about the +1 to hit that most soviet guns deal with by being single shot weapons on the advance. Best of all, they are dirt cheap. Full units cost less than 200 points.

2. Second diamond is the 34/85. Low cost, large numbers, and has a gun that can even force Tigers to respect it. When I play soviets, my first tank unit is always a unit of 34/85s. Its the closest thing soviets have to a true dual purpose unit as its MGs and numbers allow it to assault.

34/85s serve the same purpose as the SU-85 but with greater armor and MGs always seem to win out.

3. I also like the Su-100. For the gun and armor, amzingly low cost. It has its limits...RoF 1...the fact that to utilize Cat Killer you have to be shooting at 16.1 inches away, which means you are shooting at +1 to hit. But it does a wonderful job at keeping Panthers, Churchills, and the other big tanks in check.

4. Spetznaz. It's not a gaurentee, but the ability to bring 10 T34/85s or something siimilar outside of the deployment zone before 1st turn, and then still go first? It can be completely demoralizing to an opponent. Especially if you use to bring wide track, fast tank T-34s up, have them zoom through rough terrain and threaten artillery on turn one.

Late war Soviets are all about being a hammer. You don't have any multitools, so you don't need worry when you are facing a screw instead of a nail, fumbling around for a phillips or flathead only to find that you really need a torque. Even a screw will yield if you beat it hard enough with a hammer.

So thinking about your advice I made some changes. Thoughts?

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Batalon HQ (p.71) - CinC Rifle, 2iC Rifle, Batalion Komissar (30 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 14x SMG (240 pts)

Compulsory Motostrelkovy Company (p.71) - Command SMG, 7x SMG (130 pts)
- Maksim HMG (25 pts)

Heavy Mortar Company (p.73) - Command Rifle, 4x 120-PM-38 mortar (95 pts)

Tankovy Company (p.22) - Command T-34 obr 1942, 5x T-34 obr 1942 (245 pts)
- Add Cupolas to all T-34 obr 1942 (10 pts)

Transporter Platoon (p.137) - Command 3-ton truck, 6x 3-ton truck (10 pts)

Light Armoured Car Platoon (p.80) - Command BA-64, 3x BA-64 (110 pts)

Sapper Company (p.135) - Command Pioneer Rifle, 10x Pioneer Rifle (185 pts)
- Supply 3-ton truck (25 pts)

Tankovy Company (p.22) - Command T-34 obr 1942, 4x T-34 obr 1942 (215 pts)
- Add Cupolas to all T-34 obr 1942 (10 pts)
- 5x Upgrade T-34 obr 1942 to T-34/85 obr 1943 (150 pts)

Assault Gun Company (p.107) - Command SU-122, 3x SU-122 (170 pts)


1650 Points, 9 Platoons

"Su-100. For the gun and armor, amzingly low cost."
Almost panther armor, stronger gun. RoF 1 would be an issue if not CK (situational, but works mostly, worth much more than stormtrooper move) and get 3 for a little more points than 1 panther.

I never understood how can those monsters be so cheap.

Your 8 stand unit of moto is a weak point. As long as you can stay dug in /gtg it will hang around, but the benefit of russian infantry is the ability to be "big". 15 stands activates the rule that requires 10 hits to stop an assault rather than 5. I always like to have my russian infantry have that option available if possible, especially for my "core" choices. It forces the opponent to commit more resources to the unit. I would swap the HMG from that unit to the larger one and push its base count up even higher. I would also hesitate to bring transports. If you take Spetznaz, that gives you the free movement that the one turn or so you might have with trucks.

However, other than that, your list looks fine. Any further suggestions on my part are mainly reflections of my play style rather than direct improvements. I prefer to play Peredovoye Otryad rather than Moto. I prefer Spetznaz over BA-64s due to the advance move, especially when I bring SU-122s to deal with dug in infantry.

I agree Lathor. In the era of Jumbos, KTs and cheap Panthers, I don' t think I would personally build a Russian list without access to at least one unit of 3. They are not infallable, but they do a wonderful job of keeping people honest. The fact that you are usually 16.1+ away from the targets that can actually hurt you just adds to their benefits...activated CK, +1 armor bumping you to 10. Short of KT's, the AT 16 gun doesn't really care if your opponent has +1 armor or not.