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Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I play against a lot of daemons with my GK. I get really excited about it until they start rolling on the warp storm table and I realize that I'm going to start losing units with absolutely no control or defense. My daemon foes assure me that "bad stuff" can happen to them too but outside of options that do exactly the same negative effect to small portions of their army and to my entire army I havn't seen anything remotely negative about this table for the daemon player in probably about 30 game turns. One time I had a daemon player roll "the worst one" but then he got to reroll it with fate weaver! It just seems to me that the warp storm table is too dang strong. leadership on 3d6 or you turn into a herald? COME ON MAN, I've lost 3 dreadknights to this crap. It's not fun and it's not even close to being fair. Greyknights are like a terrible matchup with daemons...thats weak IMO - they should WRECK deamons.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I don't know if I'd say any army should "wreck" any other army based purely on their faction (I know, you meant in fluff), but I do agree that the warp storm table isn't a terribly fun mechanic. It takes an annoying amount of time to resolve, you can't really do much to defend against it except maybe hide in reserves/transports, and it's just another chart put into the daemon codex because chaos is chaotic.

Honestly, all the super random stuff in the daemons book bothers me. I know that chaos is supposed to mutate wildly and have strange, unpredictable energies flying everywhere, but the rules as presented don't really mesh up with any daemon fights I remember seeing in the books. Unless you're actually plunging into the warp itself, we usually see weirdly-shaped-but-thematic scenery for daemons. A keeper of secrets would mould a battlefield to be disturbingly beautiful, attractive but wrong. A great unclean one would taint waters and fill the air with flies. Neither of these things is especially well represented by, "LOl! Khorne just made a crater in that bunch of daemons over there!"

The randomnes sort of kind of works for representing a mismatched daemonic incursion of opportunity where all the local daemons kind of go, "Oh hey! I guess we're doing a wacky invasion now!" It's less useful for representing a given god. I'd love to see a less random warp storm table replaced with something god-specific or at least less annoying.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Xenomancers wrote:
I play against a lot of daemons with my GK. I get really excited about it until they start rolling on the warp storm table and I realize that I'm going to start losing units with absolutely no control or defense. My daemon foes assure me that "bad stuff" can happen to them too but outside of options that do exactly the same negative effect to small portions of their army and to my entire army I havn't seen anything remotely negative about this table for the daemon player in probably about 30 game turns. One time I had a daemon player roll "the worst one" but then he got to reroll it with fate weaver! It just seems to me that the warp storm table is too dang strong. leadership on 3d6 or you turn into a herald? COME ON MAN, I've lost 3 dreadknights to this crap. It's not fun and it's not even close to being fair. Greyknights are like a terrible matchup with daemons...thats weak IMO - they should WRECK deamons.



1. The Warpstorm table is meant to make-up for the fact that Daemons overall, do not really have a Shooting phase in a game where shooting is king. Most of the time it'll be the "God 'X' throws crap at units" results. If the Daemon player's dice are on fire that day, then sure, they might get a few turns of the really, really good results.
The thing can also backfire horribly and have the Daemons popping left, right & center as well, or perhaps nuke their invulns, or even zap a random Daemonic character.

Fatey can help mitigate the worst effects, but then, he's also a craptone of pts and rather feeble physically, while being unable to join a unit. He's not exactly that hard to counter. otherwise, the Daemon player is relying on a flat 16% chance to roll that Warlord Trait.


2. The turning an enemy Psyker into a Herald is completely random. If you rely on psykers, (as GK's do), then bring more of them to lessen the chance that your key model(s) will get randomly nailed by a random effect.
Where possible, use Combat Squads to add more potential targets to that effect. Play more of an MSU style vs. Daemons & use your own special Formation to min/max more efficiently.

Otherwise, deal with it. We endured almost two full years of being laughed off the board & turned into a gakking joke by the last OP as feth GK codex. Now we can compete and offer a challenge with toys of our own!


3. NO! Grey Knights DO NOT! outright "wreck daemons" even in the background. Grey Knights are simply the Imperium's only real response to combat the true menace that Chaos represents. Every victory however is hard won, and many times is extremely costly, even for the Chapter that's been specifically geared towards keeping the threat in check.

That's all that the Grey Knight are however; nothing more than a Band-Aid solution that thus far, has kept the bleeding under wraps.


It seems that there's still too many players however who were too used to broken as feth rules that allowed them to pretty much auto-win vs. Daemons... The last codex was an utter farce and did not do any justice at all to the Grey Knights.
Instead it turned them into a bunch of cartoony, OTT Mary-Sues who could school 'The Great Enemy' with fireballs from their eyes, and bolts of lightning from their @rse.

 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Grotesque With Gnarskin




Your experience is not the norm. Fateweaver's built in WL trait allows rerolls on the table so it skews results in favor of daemons. It's part of why he's so powerful. You're also using a psyker heavy army; against a non-psyker army, that effect doesn't do anything so it's a wasted roll.

On the other hand, not bringing something with that trait really opens up the possibility for bad rolls. Last game I lost 5 of 6 wounds on my Lord of Change to a single bad Warp Storm roll. I got the same roll again later in the game but rolled just low enough on 3d6 to avoid giving my friend a free slay the warlord. Of course, I also randomly summoned 10 pink horrors on a good roll (and nearly won as a result), so it goes both ways. The good results are almost directly mirrored with the bad results.

As for resolution time on the usual rolls, it generally only takes as long as rolling a single D6 for every enemy unit would take, followed by a few straightforward damage resolutions. Considering how many agonizingly long Tau, IG, and Necron shooting phases I have to sit through in order to actually do anything with my army, that's not a fair complaint. Those results rarely kill anything, anyway. On average (without Fateweaver) daemons tend to benefit slightly from Warp Storm which is fair since it's essentially their chapter tactic.

Besides, what fun is it to Daemons players if games against Grey Knights are auto-lose?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/04 19:24:51


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






Man i get the opposite effect when i play against daemons

My favorite was one where i managed to kill off his whole army except his warlord that was a flying DP. and he was going to win on M points, when suddenly the dark gods said nope and forced him to take a instability test and lost.

And iv had a LOT of ebbs for the -1 invul which is nice.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





as for GKs vs deamons, as someone whom owns both codexes, but primarily plays GKs, I actually went through Codex Deamons awhile back with the question "ok how do I handle this?" as I was genuinely curious (given the lack of new toys in the GK 'dex) if I had the tools to deal with everything in the deamon arsenal.

for those curious I that that MORE OR LESS the answer was yes. with a few notable "trouble areas" (that are easily addressed with allies)


IMHO the biggest areas GKs are weak in that could stand to be addressed re Deamons is their anti-air. Personally I think they should give Purgation squads some sort of selective skyfire option. that'd help address the weakness a little by giving GKs more AA. and might make a "complete crap" unit into a "kinda niche still not that great but not completly without use" unit

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran






Canberra

Experiment 626 wrote:
1. The Warpstorm table is meant to make-up for the fact that Daemons overall, do not really have a Shooting phase in a game where shooting is king. Most of the time it'll be the "God 'X' throws crap at units" results. If the Daemon player's dice are on fire that day, then sure, they might get a few turns of the really, really good results.
With the right rolls, a Chaos God having a tanty can get Slay the Warlord. That happened for me in a friendly tournament a few years ago. Thanks, Slaanesh!

   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






So 1 game makes it bad? FW definitely giving rerolls is nice, but trust me, I have had some really bad stuff. Most of the times I just hope for a "Warp is Calm", cuz I've fethed over my own units too many times.

~1.5k
Successful Trades: Ashrog (1), Iron35 (1), Rathryan (3), Leth (1), Eshm (1), Zeke48 (1), Gorkamorka12345 (1),
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Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Sorry, but the Warp Storm table isn't anything like as bad as the OP is trying to imply.

Sure, on one occasion it caused my opponent's Farseer's head to explode at the top of turn one, but equally I've lost my Bloodthirster to The Dark Prince Thirsts just as he was poised to break my opponent's centre and I've lost a game because of the result that inflicts an Instability test on everything.

Most games though, it does nothing tangible at all, other than add 10 minutes to the game.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yeah, the warp storm table isn't too powerful or unbalanced or anything like that. I just dislike that it adds a bit more time to the game and that the random explosions amid friends and foes alike make it hard for me to imagine daemonic villains ever getting to have much personality or planning. Every time they sit down to hatch some evil scheme, there are spontaneous eruptions of death all around them. It's just a bit too much chaos and not enough daemon for me.

In regards to time, daemos' lack of shooting seems like it should speed up the game, but having an entire army that needs to make good use of run rolls and possibly deepstriking seems to slow things right back down. :(

Warp Storm isn't a big deal, but it's yet another series of random effects you have to sit through while the daemon player does his thing.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Christchurch, NZ

The Warp Storm table scares the bejeebus out of me, which is why when I added Daemons to my CSM the CSM were the primary detachment. It can do some very good things, and also shaft you royally, so I decided to retain some reliability.

Honestly, I'm more surprised that the player remembered it at all. Start of the shooting phase is such an awkward time to suddenly stop and throw an army-wide die, especially since you just want to cram Dameonettes down their thoat and chuck Soul Grinder templates around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/05 22:52:28


CSM/Daemon Party

The Spiky Grot Legion

The Heavily-Ignored Pedro and Friends


In the grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, there are no indicators. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Zed wrote:
The Warp Storm table scares the bejeebus out of me, which is why when I added Daemons to my CSM the CSM were the primary detachment. It can do some very good things, and also shaft you royally, so I decided to retain some reliability.

Honestly, I'm more surprised that the player remembered it at all. Start of the shooting phase is such an awkward time to suddenly stop and throw an army-wide die, especially since you just want to cram Dameonettes down their thoat and chuck Soul Grinder templates around.


So we all get points for not making jokes about wanting to cram daemonettes down throats, right? :O


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Christchurch, NZ

Wyldhunt wrote:
 Zed wrote:
The Warp Storm table scares the bejeebus out of me, which is why when I added Daemons to my CSM the CSM were the primary detachment. It can do some very good things, and also shaft you royally, so I decided to retain some reliability.

Honestly, I'm more surprised that the player remembered it at all. Start of the shooting phase is such an awkward time to suddenly stop and throw an army-wide die, especially since you just want to cram Dameonettes down their thoat and chuck Soul Grinder templates around.


So we all get points for not making jokes about wanting to cram daemonettes down throats, right? :O

I have absolutely no idea what you could possibly be insinuating...

CSM/Daemon Party

The Spiky Grot Legion

The Heavily-Ignored Pedro and Friends


In the grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, there are no indicators. 
   
Made in au
Trustworthy Shas'vre






The warp storm table is literally the worst rule in the game. Its so unbelievably bad I can't fathom how GW could employ someone who could even think of it, let alone actually publish it.

Imagine we brought out a new edition of Monopoly. Its exactly the same, except: If you roll a double 1 you lose, if you roll a double 6 you win. See, its 'balanced' because you'll lose as often as you win. Right? Right?
But you know that would be a horrible rule, because even if it is 'balanced' over time, each individual game is irrevocably changed for the worse in a random way that neither player can control or plan for. And so it is with the Warp Storm table:a 2 or 3 can easily see 200pts of your army vanish; a 4 halves your survivability for a turn; and likewise an 11 can be a 300pt swing in your favour.

This is partly why the Lord of Unreality warlord trait is so good, and why Fateweaver is even better. If you can re-roll the bad results you can skew the table in your favour - which makes the rule even worse because you only lose on 2 double 1's in a row, but win on only 1 double 6. Fateweaver takes it a step further: if one dice shows a 4-6 you're able to re-roll the other one to try to reach that 10-12

Its very uncommon for either player to lose many units - most of the time its the equivalent of letting Daemons take some random snap shots at you. It sucks when it does happen.

BTW - GK's are still a really good match up against Daemons - with a few daemon hammers around, plus the amount of psychic dice GK's get for free, you really can shut down a lot of daemon's abilities.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




I'm not a fan of the Warp Storm for pretty much the same reasons as Travsi.

If the only results on it were 'god X flings stuff at you' then I'd be more okay - as noted, it sort of substitutes for shooting, and if you only took a units from a single power, you have no real right to complain if their rival is hacked off at you....

That said, I'm not a fan because of the time involved for a relatively limited effect (ususally) and because there is a risk of the table basically winning the game. I think the worst case of warp-storm-table-itus I've seen was a tyranid player's two hive tyrants both exploding in the first three turns - netting slay the warlord, first blood, and removing both the only psykers and the only anti-air the tyranids had from the game.

Yes, it's unlikely, but you can't help feel a bit cruddy when it happens.

Grey knights do mess daemons up quite efficiently. Massed Storm Bolters with Preferred Enemy (Daemons) hurts like hell, and with the number of psykers on the board, they're one of the few armies with a chance of restraining ludicrous waves of summoned daemons...


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





I played a game where i rolled the -1 to invuns 3 turns in a row. It sucked, but dems the breaks, suck it up.

   
 
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