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Here is my first attempt at a decent VC list. I have yet to play a game but have done some research and am only a few purchases away from this list. What do you think? How bad is it?

Master necromancer, night shroud, talisman of preservation, channeling staff, Lvl 4, master of the dead

Wight King, great weapon, shield, skeletal mount w/barding, BSB, razor standard

Vampire, sword of striking, enchanted shield, talisman of endurance, red fury, heavy armour

50 zombies, musician, standard

50 skeletons, full command

40 crypt ghouls

5 dire wolves

5 dire wolves

14 black knights, barding, lances, full command

6 crypt horrors

Terrorgeist, rancid maw

2500 pts

Which Lore of Magic for your Master Necro? Vampires I assume. (It's part of your army list)
You could put Undeath on the Vampire, that'd worry a few people!
How about giving the Black Knights the War Banner (+1 CR), I guess they're carrying the Wight King.
Remember to keep the Master Necro quite close to the Black Knights as you'll need the Invocation on them and you want to be within 6".
Other than that, I like it.

Thanks for the feedback. I was planning on lore of vamps for both guys. I wan to stay away from lore of undeath for now... (Don't have all those models for summoning). Is rolling once of lore of death or shadow worth it on a vamp? I'd just as soon have a backup invocation, yes? Also, do you think the block of ghouls would be better off as two blocks of 20?

Neither of the signature spells is bad, and you could roll Purple sun or Mindrazor...
That would concentrate minds in the magic phase!

With your list as above, I think 40 Ghouls is perfect. In horde formation you're putting out a lot of attacks, many of which will be poisoned. And if 6 x 7 then good rank bonus and toughness plus the invocation!
Is that where the Vampire will reside?

Lore of death could definitely be interesting, but being able to cast invocation twice a turn seems better to me. I'm all theory at this point though so I will probably try out both if I get a chance. I was planning on putting the vamp with the ghouls, yes, or maybe the skeletons. But if I'm keeping the ghouls as a horde I think he ( she actually, I'm using the Isabella model) would fit best there to help turn them into more of a deathstar. Again, thanks for the advice!

Huey11 wrote:
Which Lore of Magic for your Master Necro? Vampires I assume. (It's part of your army list)
You could put Undeath on the Vampire, that'd worry a few people!
How about giving the Black Knights the War Banner (+1 CR), I guess they're carrying the Wight King.
Remember to keep the Master Necro quite close to the Black Knights as you'll need the Invocation on them and you want to be within 6".
Other than that, I like it.

You should use banner of the barrows for your knights and wight to give them +1 to hit

Prindlehaven wrote:
Here is my first attempt at a decent VC list. I have yet to play a game but have done some research and am only a few purchases away from this list. What do you think? How bad is it?

Master necromancer, night shroud, talisman of preservation, channeling staff, Lvl 4, master of the dead

Wight King, great weapon, shield, skeletal mount w/barding, BSB, razor standard

Vampire, sword of striking, enchanted shield, talisman of endurance, red fury, heavy armour

50 zombies, musician, standard

50 skeletons, full command

40 crypt ghouls

5 dire wolves

5 dire wolves

14 black knights, barding, lances, full command

6 crypt horrors

Terrorgeist, rancid maw

2500 pts

Drop the Master Necro and the hero Vampire and combine them into a single Vampire Lord kitted out as follows:
Mundane: Heavy Armour, shield, barded nightmare
Powers: Quickblood, Red Fury
Magic: Talisman of Preservation (4++ for protection), Ogre Blade (for S7), Other Trickster's Shard (so that he doesn't get caught up on ward saves).

Make him your level 4 as well.

You want him in with the BK bus so that you can apply his strength where yo uneed it. You also want more chaff to get the bus where it needs to go. Terrorgheist orbits the bus and screams at things nearby. Finally, since adding the vampire to the bus loses its ethereal movement rule you should put the movement standard on the black knights to bump them back up to M8.

Drop Razor Standard off the Wight King and give him the Night Shroud.

Drop Rancid Maw off the terrorgheist...you shouldn't be planning on having this thing in combat.

The crypt horrors are too small. I'd get them up to at least 8.


You're also well over minimum core. You should be at 625 exactly, or as close as you can get. Every point you spend in core above the minimum is points lost on other things that are better uses of the investment. I also really hate ghouls. They're really expensive for what they do, and at M4 they're rather big, slow, and unwieldy.

Finally you don't have enough chaff, IMHO. I'd add either another couple spirit hosts, or another couple units of dogs if you free up space in core.

...and then you end up with the same Vampire Count army that everyone else uses...

@huey11: Then what do you use?

I tried a game of warhammer fantasy with vampire counts on universal battle (basically a virtual version of warhammer fantasy and yes the mods say we can talk about it as long as we don't post pics) and i used a double mortis engine list with most of my units down the center and crypt horrors on the side. It was dumb as in stupid good for my 4th or 5th game. It was like playing easy mode and i didn't even mean to. Basically not only do mortis engines give a regeneration bubble but they boost casting for lore of vampires (with an upgrade) and the regeneration bubble also damages any enemy units within it at the beginning of your turn if i recall correctly. As it turns out that's ridiculously good for facing chaff units that try to get in your way.

At the end of the game i felt kind of dirty actually. It just felt too easy.

I've also heard you can do ethereal and scream lists. Honestly vampire counts would be nice (and have a lot of good units as opposed to the few good skaven units that must be taken) but they're a little too powerful.

Anybody else here think GW just decided 'f**k it let's just break everything and hope that balances everything out'? Seriously a lot of end times stuff doesn't even seem like they tried for balance but then a lot of these side games tend not to (even if end times is a bit different).

Black Knights,
Blood Knights,
Banshees
to name but a few...

You should use banner of the barrows for your knights and wight to give them +1 to hit

Huey11 wrote:...and then you end up with the same Vampire Count army that everyone else uses...

Yeah, and for good reason. Vampire Lords are the most cost-effective, flexible, and useful hammer in the book. He's fast, durable, doubles as your caster, and is surprisingly hard to kill given how little actually gets to attack him.

I fully support the desire to use an army that is novel and unique. However there is a REASON for many of the choices in the standard vampire builds, and they're not immediately apparent to a player new to the army. Why waste money on a bunch of useless units when you can start with the useful ones and add in stuff once you get a feel for what other units might actually work.

flamingkillamajig wrote:@huey11: Then what do you use?

I tried a game of warhammer fantasy with vampire counts on universal battle (basically a virtual version of warhammer fantasy and yes the mods say we can talk about it as long as we don't post pics) and i used a double mortis engine list with most of my units down the center and crypt horrors on the side. It was dumb as in stupid good for my 4th or 5th game. It was like playing easy mode and i didn't even mean to. Basically not only do mortis engines give a regeneration bubble but they boost casting for lore of vampires (with an upgrade) and the regeneration bubble also damages any enemy units within it at the beginning of your turn if i recall correctly. As it turns out that's ridiculously good for facing chaff units that try to get in your way.

At the end of the game i felt kind of dirty actually. It just felt too easy.

I've also heard you can do ethereal and scream lists. Honestly vampire counts would be nice (and have a lot of good units as opposed to the few good skaven units that must be taken) but they're a little too powerful.

Anybody else here think GW just decided 'f**k it let's just break everything and hope that balances everything out'? Seriously a lot of end times stuff doesn't even seem like they tried for balance but then a lot of these side games tend not to (even if end times is a bit different).

VC are only "easy mode" against opponents of low-middling experience. Just like Ogres are. Just like Warriors are. They're very unsubtle in their strategy, and just cram a very powerful combat machine down their opponent's throat.

However once you start getting more experience you find that the Vampire Counts are actually a very difficult army to master. They have a thousand little tricks, and the tipping point between when your hammers will chew through something and when they'll bounce and just explode to unstable is very fine, and can get sneak up on you if you're not careful. Experienced opponents also know how to trip up the standard VC builds and shatter them over their knee, and learning how to out-counter the counters is actually quite difficult.

Basically, VC are easy-mode for a starting player against other starting players. But at higher levels they're a finesse army that requires a very thorough understanding of the rules, and of the weaknesses of your own army and the strength of your opponents'.

I have played skaven for about 5 years and did as well with vampire counts in only about 5 games. I've even heard other players mention some factions are more powerful than others. This goes back to the unbalanced armies, codex creep and power level discussion. Not to mention in general some factions tend to do well against others or some types of armies. For instance high elves BotWD vs daemons.

Oh and there's a difference between knowing your army and just having tons more options. A lot of skaven options suck and everybody that plays skaven agree with it while others are absolutely must haves (rares mostly and 13th spell if your opponent is mostly elite infantry). Meanwhile there are a few vampire things that are very potent. I don't specifically have trouble with vampires (unless they take nagash) but having options to almost every lore, having great combat, ethereal (only army with it), killing blow on units (something usually unseen), lots of poisoned attacks and various other stuff. I mean with skaven i just have to pray my rares don't die, my general stays alive and 13th actually ends up working. Even if i win a combat with a unit by flanking them and hit them in the front with rank and file to get rid of steadfast it's usually not enough to break my opponent.

Anyway sorry for the rant but it just came over me.

Huey11 wrote:
Black Knights,
Blood Knights,
Banshees
to name but a few...

I'm rather curious about hexwraiths and spirit hosts. I heard one tournament player mention that his biggest loss was against a ton of spirit hosts as he had nothing to handle them. It seems like a cheap shot though.

Interesting discussion. I would of course like to own all the models for the optimal list and be able to play it optimally. This seems like a tall order for someone who hast played a game yet. For now, I'll settle for my sub par list that uses models I actually own.

Bravo.

Here's a list I brought to a recent GT that served me very well.

Level 4 (Vampire Lord): Potion of Strength; Armour of Destiny; Dispel Scroll; Red Fury; Quickblood; Level 4 Wizard; lance; shield; Hellsteed 543
General (Vampire Lord): Ogre Blade; Talisman of Preservation; The Other Trickster's Shard; Red Fury; Quickblood; Level 2 Wizard; shield; heavy armour; Hellsteed 474

Wight King: Nightshroud; Dragonbane Gem; Ironcurse Icon; great weapon; shield; Skeletal Steed (barding) 164

39 Skeleton Warriors: Banner of Eternal Flame; Skeleton Champion; musician; standard bearer 235
40 Skeleton Warriors: Skeleton Champion; musician; standard bearer 230
5 Dire Wolves 40
5 Dire Wolves 40
5 Dire Wolves 40
5 Dire Wolves 40

10 Black Knights: Banner of Swiftness; barding; lances; Hell Knight; musician; standard bearer 305
4 Vargheists: Vargoyle 194
4 Vargheists: Vargoyle 194

2,499 points



Reports can be found HERE if you're interested.


The basic thing to keep in mind with VC is that your Quickblood+Red Fury vampire lord is the backbone of your list, and everything revolves around him. He's your primary hammer, your level 4, the centre of your march bubble, and the only thing keeping your units from doing anything leadership-related. Whatever unit you stick him into hits three times as hard as it did before. Put two blenders into a unit and it transforms from a "blender" into a "woodchipper," which will chew through just about any unit in the game in no time flat.

Leading from that, there are four basic 'Builds" for VC, based on how you deliver your vampire to the opponent's phase:

1) Cav Bus: vampire lord is either on a barded nightmare or a hellsteed, and travels with a unit of cavalry. Generally speaking this is black knights, but I've seen people do it with blood knights as well paired with the Flag of the Blood Keep (for a 4++) and MR(2) for a 2++ against spells. Pair him with a mounted wight king with Nightshroud however you do it.

Pros: mobile, durable, fast
Cons: vulnerable against gunlines, core gets kind of left behind, can struggle against steadfast, a whiffed round of combat can be cause for concern

2) Infantry: vampire lord is either in a brick of grave guard or a big bus of skeletons. GG takes the Banner of the Banners, skeletons the movement banner. You can also take both and give yourself flexibility for where your vampires go.

Pros: can make best use of your core, including using invocations to raise up huge bricks of zombies. Also really solid at punching through steadfast, and doesn't care much about whiffing a round here or there
Cons: vulnerable to things like witch elves that will chew through the rank-and-file your VL is with. Least maneuverable of the builds. Vampires are not well protected (generally 4+4++)

3) Flying Circus: vampire goes on a hellsteed/zombie dragon/abyssal terror, and flies solo. Pair him with a pair of flying terrorgheists, and 2-3 units of 4-6 vargheists plus other highly mobile units like hex wraiths or varghulfs. Hits hard and hits fast, with more mobility than the cav bus, but more fragility and difficulty grinding out against big bricks of infantry.

Pros: maneuverability, picking fights, EXTREMELY fast
Cons: even more vulnerable to gunlines than the cav build, a whiffed round of combat can be game over


And finally:

4) No Vampires: if you go this route it's generally not because it's the most competitive, but because you have some specific aversion to vampires. Best builds usually revolve around dual level 4 master necros, giant or multiple bricks of crypt horrors, mortis engines, and a truly horrifying number of zombies.



Those "builds" all dictate maybe 30-50% of your army. The rest is up to you. Some units (varghulfs, black coaches, units of wraiths) suck, while others are meta and playstyle dependent. What you bring is up to you.

Swap out a unit of vargheists for a terrorgheist in my list, though, and I'd say you've got a pretty solid backbone of an army to start with. Also about the lowest model count you can manage for Vampires without taking Ghouls (awful).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I have played skaven for about 5 years and did as well with vampire counts in only about 5 games. I've even heard other players mention some factions are more powerful than others. This goes back to the unbalanced armies, codex creep and power level discussion. Not to mention in general some factions tend to do well against others or some types of armies. For instance high elves BotWD vs daemons.

Oh and there's a difference between knowing your army and just having tons more options. A lot of skaven options suck and everybody that plays skaven agree with it while others are absolutely must haves (rares mostly and 13th spell if your opponent is mostly elite infantry). Meanwhile there are a few vampire things that are very potent. I don't specifically have trouble with vampires (unless they take nagash) but having options to almost every lore, having great combat, ethereal (only army with it), killing blow on units (something usually unseen), lots of poisoned attacks and various other stuff. I mean with skaven i just have to pray my rares don't die, my general stays alive and 13th actually ends up working. Even if i win a combat with a unit by flanking them and hit them in the front with rank and file to get rid of steadfast it's usually not enough to break my opponent.

Anyway sorry for the rant but it just came over me.

Huey11 wrote:
Black Knights,
Blood Knights,
Banshees
to name but a few...

I'm rather curious about hexwraiths and spirit hosts. I heard one tournament player mention that his biggest loss was against a ton of spirit hosts as he had nothing to handle them. It seems like a cheap shot though.

Yeah they're an old book, and yeah they have a bunch of dud options. But Skaven are a rock-solid army with loads of competitive options. Doomwheels, HPAs, WLCs, stormfiends are all savage. Yeah they're rare, but when the rest of your army is giant tarpits of rats, including tarpits that all of the above can shoot into, it doesn't really matter. If any of those options WEREN'T rare they'd be fething bent as gak.

Outside of rare you've got two very solid lores, the Fellblade which can be stuck on a high-I fighty character and give all sorts of armies incredible nightmares. Then there's ridiculously cheap engineers, who can be kitted out with some incredibly awesome weapons ontop of that. I've had a single doom rocket kill 300 points worth of elite infantry. Brass orbs that have MISFIRED and still taken out terrorgheists.

The only thing holding Skaven back is that they're dice-dependent. For every game where your skaven toys just savage you there's a game where they blow up or just don't show up. gak also goes downhill in a hurry if someone snipes out your mage or - worse - you drop him down a hole early on.




Vampires lack a lot of the flexibility that Skaven have, despite being an earlier book. Yeah we have ethereal, but it's garbage in the current meta on anything but spirit hosts or Lore of Undeath units...and only then because they're cheap / free. Out of our rare section only 3 of the entries are playable, and blood knights only arguably so. Our special is solid, but all of those units have very clear weaknesses. The only thing in our book that is unmitigated awesomeness are vampire lords, but they're also super expensive and have their weaknesses. Sure, if your opponent doesn't KNOW those weaknesses, or has no good counter to them, then they're in trouble. But in competitive play they're not all people crack them up to be.

They're good, don't get me wrong. But they're solidly mid-tier in terms of power level, and you've really gotta know the army backwards and forwards to make them work for you against high-level opponents.

I'm also a new player to vampire counts but I've had a few games so I can tell about some of my experiences.

Having the vampire lord being your level 4 will save you points, and since he's always in the action, all your augment bubbles will be more effective. The vampire build that the pirate mentioned is easily the strongest build. He can kill just about anything in combat.

Hero vampires are not that competitive. They can be very powerful when fully tooled up but at the end of the day they are still t4 with 2 wounds and die very often. Wight kings make much better body guards and are pretty good with their increased toughness and wounds as well as killing blow. They're also much cheaper.

I also find musicians pretty useless. You can save like 30 points by dropping them. That goes a long way to getting more crypt horrors. Although you'll need to buy another box :/

BSBs are also kind of useless because we never have to take leadership tests. Nightshroud like pirate said is a beautiful item.

If the TG is in combat it's going to die. So you can save points on rancid maw.

If you already have the crypt ghouls give them a try. I find they just don't kill enough without magic support so I fill my core with zombies, skeletons and dire wolves. You'll find that our core, even ghouls really suck at fighting. They're basically just there to die. By the end of the game I never have any core left alive. However that's not to say they don't have a purpose. You will win games with your core depending on which unit you feed them too and when. A strategy that has been working for me is to feed the enemy's main combat unit the core while the rest of my army takes out the rest of his, then set up a combo charge on his expensive unit, or ignore them if I don't need the victory points

Thanks for the input guys! Particularly Pirate. I read that report already, so it's funny (and helpful) that you should reply to my post. I learned a lot from the read and it helped to pass the dull time at work! Haha. I will definitely be considering your advice as my army (and knowledge) grows.