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Hey all. I'm playing in a local colleges tournament in 2 weeks and I'm trying to decide on lists. I'm looking for help or if you have suggestions I am open to them.

Things to note:

Each round is worth 6 tournament points. 3 are based on victory points, the other 3 are achievements completed in game.

ALL end times rules are in effect. (Lists, characters, magic, the whole kit'n'caboodle)

Summoned units are comped HARD. They can never score tournament points for the summoner but will award points for the opponent. Additionally they will contribute to raising the break point for fortitude. I.E. If I summon so much as 1 unit my break point goes from 3 to 4. However this applies only to NEW units, growing my existing units doesn't count. I have enough fort (7) where I can bump from 2 to 3 and be fine, but combined with everything else, nagash stays home.

Having any ET characters will lose you 2/18 Tournament points.

There is a special rule in one scenario for destroying buildings. Cassandras Comet can destroy them so I need to have Heavens on my one vamp. It's my only really viable tactic.

One mission pretty much requires a BSB

Now I have 2 options for lists I'm struggling with. One of them is straight VC, one of them is Undead legions.




List 2:


The idea is to use khaine magic to summon massed skeletons & invoc everything into never dying. Also I have found forcing through many smaller spells works better than aiming for the big ones with khaine magic.

So between the lists the trade is:
the hierotitan, whom I like for the bound spells and the +d3 to every cast.
a 4+ ward on my master necro
1 Grave Guard
for:
kemmler. Who gives me a lvl 4 and loremaster vampires (rerolls casts), as well as +5 to dispel, reveals magic items within 12'. Can use fly or ethereal to survive
Making 2 of my vampies lvl 2's and kiting them a bit better


I've been debating dropping the lvl 2's to lvl 1's and buying all my vamps some sort of magic weapons.

What are your thoughts?

Quite honestly, I hate both of your lists.

Too many hero vampires, who are way too fragile and frankly just kind of garbage for what they produce / number of points. The only way they work is when combined with a vampire lord. Kemmler isn't particularly great for his points.

Second, your units are WAY too small. GG should never be smaller than 30...if that. Skeletons shouldn't be smaller than 40.

Unless you lose tournament points for it, there is really no reason not to run your list as UL. TK skeletons are cheaper and better than VC ones for the same price. Unless you want spears, but you shouldn't because they're garbage. HW/S are demonstrably better.

Finally, you should combine all of those crappy hero vampires into one or two vampire lords. Hell...scrap the master necro and just make them your level 4(s) as well. They're demonstrably better in every way.

Based on your list, I'd go with something like the following (note that I haven't figured points, this is just off the top of my head).

Vampire lord: QB, RF, HA, GW, tal of pres, OTS, Dispel Scroll, Level 4 vampires
Vampire Lord: QB, RF, GW, armour of destiny, book of arkhan Level 2 vampires (general)
Wight King BSB, Nightshroud, GW, Ironcurse Icon

40 VC skeletons, flaming banner, FC
40 TK skeletons FC
4 units of direwolves

34 grave guard, banner of the barrows, GW, FC

Terrorgheist

Thanks for the input. I'll look into a lord but I'm not running 2. Remember due to a scenario I need lore of heavens.

The skeletons are that low because with kemmler and end times magic I can 1 dice invoc over ane over turn 1 to grow them. More smaller units lets me grow them. I will remove the spears though. If I go without a master nevro i'll definitely bump them up.

I needed vc not ul for access to kemmler, that is the only reason the one is vc.

Why do I want book of arkhan? Both vampires would already know it thanks to khaine magic. This is also why I am running so many heros. With khaine magic you get access to every spell from a lore you know so I have every spell from death, undeath, vampires and heavens. Also I understand you didn't calculate points but you are almost 500 points over the limit, I appreciate the input however it is largely unusable in it's current iteration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you throw 1 dice to cast, and throw either a 1 or a 2, you've failed. It's in the BRB. So a 1/3 chance of scuppering your magic phase...

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Thanks for the input. I'll look into a lord but I'm not running 2. Remember due to a scenario I need lore of heavens.

The skeletons are that low because with kemmler and end times magic I can 1 dice invoc over ane over turn 1 to grow them. More smaller units lets me grow them. I will remove the spears though. If I go without a master nevro i'll definitely bump them up.

I needed vc not ul for access to kemmler, that is the only reason the one is vc.

Why do I want book of arkhan? Both vampires would already know it thanks to khaine magic. This is also why I am running so many heros. With khaine magic you get access to every spell from a lore you know so I have every spell from death, undeath, vampires and heavens. Also I understand you didn't calculate points but you are almost 500 points over the limit, I appreciate the input however it is largely unusable in it's current iteration.

What benefits, apart from prime real estate, do you get from killing buildings with the comet? If its real estate only, you would probably be better with Crypt Ghouls/Horrors and Wyssan's Spam on a baby vamp instead. If you go VC, I'm not sure Kemmler is worth it over Count Mannfred, Fly and Ethereal on demand are more survivable than T5 W5, but is +1 to dispel and reveal hidden stuff in 12"? better than getting death, +1 Ld and Master of the Black Arts? I honestly don't think it is.

That being said, I wouldn't underestimate heavens, the signature spell is imo, the most brutal of them all in the game and with infinity +1 spamming it, it is just obnoxious.

Huey11 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you throw 1 dice to cast, and throw either a 1 or a 2, you've failed. It's in the BRB. So a 1/3 chance of scuppering your magic phase...

It's using end times khaine magic, so if a spell is both unboosted and naturally requires <15+ to cast, you can cast it again even if you fail, as long as you have dice.

Thanks, I'll look into count manny. If i do that I can likely drop the death hero vamp.

As for buildings its tournament points for deatroying more than your opponent.

Count Manny also has the advantage of mount options (except a Zombie Dragon, he rides it all the time in the fluff... cmon GW...)

He will be on foot unless I take cav. He has no ward save and with ET allowed I suspect I will see more than a few cannons.

If I drop kemmler and my death vampire. As well as ironcurse icon and a shield from my heavens vamp, I can fit in manny.

Also since count manny is loremaster death and vamps. Could I elect to roll my lvl 4 on undeath, then because i have loremaster have access to all 3 lores?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually... SinceLoremaster is CHANGED under khaine it no longer grants access to those spells. Thus mannfred would have to choose which lore to he is going to use.

This means he can know either death or vampires but now cannot know both. Since loremaster no longer gives access to spells but rather gives you rerolls then attempting to cast from "his chosen lore"