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Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






Would these specs be condussive to scanning a 28mm model. Im looking for good detail. Basically looking to scan in small detailed miniatures and create STL files from them. The main thing Im having trouble with is relating how the spec for accuracy and resolution actually translate to the finished scan. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Object Size- No preset limit. Objects larger than field can be assembled with supplied software.

Field Size- 5.1" x 3.8" (Macro) and 13.5" x 10.1" (Wide). HD PRO Extended Mode 22.5" x 16.75".
Resolution- 3D point density on target surface is 400 DPI in Macro Mode and 150 DPI in Wide Mode.
Texture Density- 400 DPI on target surfaces is 400 DPI in Macro Mode and 150 DPI in Wide Mode.
Dimensional Accuracy- ±0.005" in Macro Mode and ±0.015" in Wide Mode.
Acquisition Speed- 50,000 processed points/sec throughput. Typically 2 minutes per scan of each facet.
Typical Datasets- Typical small models are a quarter million points, after oversampling and optimization
Environmental- Desktop use under ordinary office lighting. No darkroom or special background required
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nottingham, UK

400 dpi is pretty grainy.

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




winterdyne wrote:
400 dpi is pretty grainy.


But it could work if you use it for the proportions only and work over it for the details. Even with a high quality scan there would probably be need for minor clean up work and preparations for final usage or file format.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Two questions: what are you using the scans for and how much sculpting talent do you have? Are you intending to scan the model and then immediately print it? If so, what is the resolution of your printer? There's not much point in worrying about the resolution of your scanner if you're using a low-resolution printer that can't handle fine detail. Nor is it really worth worrying too much about resolution if you're just trying to get the general shape of a model (for example, to print conversion parts for it) and have the ability to sculpt your own detail and correct any scanning issues. If you have the sculpting talent fixing a grainy scan is fairly easy (the shape is there, you just have to smooth out the gaps) and you might need to worry more about how accurate the points it does scan are so that you have the correct shape.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Dramagod2 wrote:
Would these specs be condussive to scanning a 28mm model. Im looking for good detail. Basically looking to scan in small detailed miniatures and create STL files from them. The main thing Im having trouble with is relating how the spec for accuracy and resolution actually translate to the finished scan. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Object Size- No preset limit. Objects larger than field can be assembled with supplied software.

Field Size- 5.1" x 3.8" (Macro) and 13.5" x 10.1" (Wide). HD PRO Extended Mode 22.5" x 16.75".
Resolution- 3D point density on target surface is 400 DPI in Macro Mode and 150 DPI in Wide Mode.
Texture Density- 400 DPI on target surfaces is 400 DPI in Macro Mode and 150 DPI in Wide Mode.
Dimensional Accuracy- ±0.005" in Macro Mode and ±0.015" in Wide Mode.
Acquisition Speed- 50,000 processed points/sec throughput. Typically 2 minutes per scan of each facet.
Typical Datasets- Typical small models are a quarter million points, after oversampling and optimization
Environmental- Desktop use under ordinary office lighting. No darkroom or special background required


OMG!

400dpi is LOW resolution, and not high enough for miniatures.

The Human eye can basically see 1,000dpi - 10,00dpi, depending upon the pattern of the surface (most smooth surfaces will have a visible print pattern at 1,000dpi).

The scanners we used where I used to work had a 1,200dpi for the resolution, but we were converting to a vector path to do milling, so the resolution was less important most of the time.

Also, as has been pointed out, your intended use and function, as well as talent are relevant to this issue.

MB
P.S. if you want to see a selection of stuff I have done, look in the galley at www.camcraft3d.com
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






I am trying to scan some original miniatures made by a friend in order to create a STLfile that I cna then use to 3D print and then create a master mold off of the 3D printed model. I am definitely learning as I go. I plan to have the file printed by a company, possibly maxmini3D.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I dont understand about resolution is that all the scanners I have looked at list it in a different way. Some are in DPI, some are in microns and some are in inches and I dont know how to compare them. I can obviously convert the numbers but I don't know what they mean in relation to one another.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/19 04:24:35


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Dramagod2 wrote:
I am trying to scan some original miniatures made by a friend in order to create a STLfile that I cna then use to 3D print and then create a master mold off of the 3D printed model. I am definitely learning as I go. I plan to have the file printed by a company, possibly maxmini3D.


I'm confused here. Why would you want to scan the model and then print it instead of just making the molds from the original model? Why put in all the work of scanning the model, fixing the scan to be a printable file, printing a copy, and fixing the copy to reach mold-ready standards?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 Peregrine wrote:
 Dramagod2 wrote:
I am trying to scan some original miniatures made by a friend in order to create a STLfile that I cna then use to 3D print and then create a master mold off of the 3D printed model. I am definitely learning as I go. I plan to have the file printed by a company, possibly maxmini3D.


I'm confused here. Why would you want to scan the model and then print it instead of just making the molds from the original model? Why put in all the work of scanning the model, fixing the scan to be a printable file, printing a copy, and fixing the copy to reach mold-ready standards?


Yeah, this is confusing me too.

Far better to send the master of to make molds and then for casting. K.I.S.S.

Your friend may be better off learning how to use something like Z-Brush if he wants to go the digital route in the future.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mr. Burning wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Dramagod2 wrote:
I am trying to scan some original miniatures made by a friend in order to create a STLfile that I cna then use to 3D print and then create a master mold off of the 3D printed model. I am definitely learning as I go. I plan to have the file printed by a company, possibly maxmini3D.


I'm confused here. Why would you want to scan the model and then print it instead of just making the molds from the original model? Why put in all the work of scanning the model, fixing the scan to be a printable file, printing a copy, and fixing the copy to reach mold-ready standards?


Yeah, this is confusing me too.

Far better to send the master of to make molds and then for casting. K.I.S.S.

Your friend may be better off learning how to use something like Z-Brush if he wants to go the digital route in the future.


I can think of ONLY ONE reason that one would scan a figure to reproduce it:

If you planned to change the scale/size of the figure.

That doesn't sound like what is happening, though.

This is what we do at work, where we have created Architectural Components at a smaller size than they are going to be when installed in the house/building for which they are intended.

If he wishes to scan components, or a miniature to use PART of the miniature, this might be another reason, come to think of it.

So... TWO reasons.

MB
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






The reason we want to scaN the mini is because it is a completed one of a kind work. Casting it to make a master would require is to both disassble the model so the it could be cast correctly in pieces as well as destroying the beautiful paint job. We are trying to reproduce the model without damaging the original.
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





Or... His buddy primed, painted and did up the details on his custom model and refuses to allow it to be pressed into a mold. With fear of damaging the paint or his work.

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Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






Scanning it will also allow us to split the components digitally so that they can be printed separately from eachother
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

Are you looking to buy the scanner?

Are you a competent user of software which will enable you to manipulate any files you get from a scan?

Are you looking at this as a commercial enterprise in selling this particular miniature?

Is it not feasible to look for a company that would do the scanning for you? taking some of the pressure of yourself?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/19 12:35:37


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Dramagod2 wrote:
Scanning it will also allow us to split the components digitally so that they can be printed separately from eachother


You have no idea what you are proposing to do.

Depending upon the software you use to do this, you are going to wind up with a file that is not portable, a mesh that is severely flawed, or a nearly impossible editing job to "split the components."

I've been working with digital media for over a decade, and working from scans like that can be some of the most tedious work there is.

MB
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'd agree that finding somebody to do the scanning for you is probably the best way to go

CMON have certainly scanned in traditional sculpted stuff to turn it into 3d models for plastic production (eg sedition wars), but whether they did this in the US or it was all done for them in China I don't know

Mantic have also done the same (again not sure if this was in the UK or all done in China)

worth an email to ask if they can point you in the right direction

It's would also be worth looking into 3d scanning for jewellery design (locally) as that's another field where people may be looking to make accurate copies of original work so you might find service businesses with a decent scanner and experience (they were certainly one of the first places to offer really high end 3d printing for general clients)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/19 13:53:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Also, expect to pay between $500 and $2,500 for a scan that is high enough quality to be worth anything.

MB
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Dramagod2 wrote:
The reason we want to scaN the mini is because it is a completed one of a kind work. Casting it to make a master would require is to both disassble the model so the it could be cast correctly in pieces as well as destroying the beautiful paint job. We are trying to reproduce the model without damaging the original.


Paint is going to disrupt the scan as well. The scans we have done/had done recently all needed the pieces to be a single flat color that was not spectrally close to the laser.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you want to keep the miniature whole then another option would be to use it in a mould as it is (without damaging it) and then using that mould to create a bad copy and rework that into something that can be used to create a real production mould. That would probably be faster and cheaper than going the 3d scanner/printer way.

Essentially instead of cutting the miniature to get a good mould you just get the best mould you can and use that to rebuild a new master miniature for the actual mould.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Some points about copying the miniature.

1) As has been pointed out, paint on the miniature is going to affect the scan due to the coloration.

There are laser scanners that use multiple lasers (RGBY) to get a colored scan of the object (we use them at UCLA for scanning in Archeological sites, or relics from digs - I often work digitally reassembling the scanned components into them Reginald object).

But you are then talking about a VERY expensive scan, which would run into the many thousands of dollars.

2) There are ways to make molds of the figure without damaging the paint job.

There is a rubber used in VFX makeup effects that is heated to melt it, and then poured around an object to make a mold. Melange is one of the names I have heard it called.

But it has the nice property of not sticking to anything when it sets. It is pretty slimy, even when set.

You could set up a box of this rubber, and then use it to make a mold of the miniature, and then cast a copy that could then be re-worked to produce a master from which to make an actual copy.

3) If you have the money to buy a 3D scanner, since that seems to have been intimated by one poster......

Then you might instead want to think about just re-sculpting the original again.

Any second attempt at it should produce an even better sculpt, and it will then be more useful for producing a mold.

...........

But anyone on here who has used digital sculpting or modeling software will tell you that what you are attempting to do is going to present a world of problems.

Yes, what you are proposing should be how we go about copying a miniature, in the best of worlds.

But we do not live in the best of worlds.

.....................

Is there any way to post a picture of the miniature, to get an idea of any difficulties that might arise from any specific method used to copy it.

MB
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre




DFW area Texas - Rarely

Short answer - no.

Or rather, it would be much cheaper to pay a high quality sculptor or 3d artist to make another one.

Yes, seriously.

Do a bit more research on the tech, and examples of the tech at various resolutions (including the printing) and you will find that most of the other advice here is pretty accurate.

Wish we had a better answer, but really, a talented sculptor should be able to make you a new master for less time and money.


DavePak
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





^^^What Dave said^^^

MB
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'd agree that finding somebody to do the scanning for you is probably the best way to go

CMON have certainly scanned in traditional sculpted stuff to turn it into 3d models for plastic production (eg sedition wars), but whether they did this in the US or it was all done for them in China I don't know

Mantic have also done the same (again not sure if this was in the UK or all done in China)

worth an email to ask if they can point you in the right direction

It's would also be worth looking into 3d scanning for jewellery design (locally) as that's another field where people may be looking to make accurate copies of original work so you might find service businesses with a decent scanner and experience (they were certainly one of the first places to offer really high end 3d printing for general clients)

Agreed, and like any technology still emerging, 3D scanning will only continue to improve. It's a lot of work to clean up the scan currently, but could be worth it to turn a physical master into a digital one (and as noted by Orlando is already used by some miniature companies for this purpose).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/23 06:12:58


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 RiTides wrote:
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'd agree that finding somebody to do the scanning for you is probably the best way to go

CMON have certainly scanned in traditional sculpted stuff to turn it into 3d models for plastic production (eg sedition wars), but whether they did this in the US or it was all done for them in China I don't know

Mantic have also done the same (again not sure if this was in the UK or all done in China)

worth an email to ask if they can point you in the right direction

It's would also be worth looking into 3d scanning for jewellery design (locally) as that's another field where people may be looking to make accurate copies of original work so you might find service businesses with a decent scanner and experience (they were certainly one of the first places to offer really high end 3d printing for general clients)

Agreed, and like any technology still emerging, 3D scanning will only continue to improve. It's a lot of work to clean up the scan currently, but could be worth it to turn a physical master into a digital one (and as noted by Orlando is already used by some miniature companies for this purpose).



I keep saying that.

Until the end of last year, sculpting the original work and cleaning up 3D scans was what I DID for a job (for architectural components... You can see my work at www.camcraft3d.com).

Cleaning up a scan takes almost as much time as sculpting the original piece in a lot of cases. This is especially true if you do not have a very high quality laser scanner (a lot of scanners use polarized light, IR, UV, or even physical haptics to scan a piece).

MB
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Yes, but it's worth noting that:

1. You did this for an industry, albiet not miniatures, and it was worth it for them.
2. Miniature companies are already doing this for masters.

I think it's too broad to say that it's always worth resculpting the work rather than scanning it, as clearly some companies feel otherwise and are scanning in their physical sculpts so that they can have injection mold tooling made for them. Sculpting or scanning are both a lot of work, it's just where you want to put in the effort and there's not a right or wrong answer necessarily (and if there is, it likely won't be valid in a few years).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 RiTides wrote:
Yes, but it's worth noting that:

1. You did this for an industry, albiet not miniatures, and it was worth it for them.
2. Miniature companies are already doing this for masters.

I think it's too broad to say that it's always worth resculpting the work rather than scanning it, as clearly some companies feel otherwise and are scanning in their physical sculpts so that they can have injection mold tooling made for them. Sculpting or scanning are both a lot of work, it's just where you want to put in the effort and there's not a right or wrong answer necessarily (and if there is, it likely won't be valid in a few years).


The points are valid, but the issue remains the same.

I was using my experience to point out that we have clients shoveling seven figure sums at us to produce the work for their buildings.

A guy trying to duplicate a miniature doesn't have that backing.

And I will be using a similar process to create the masters for the miniatures I am working on (at least until my boss forgives me, and gives me my job back).

Although I tend to primarily only work digitally now, and even where I work has now gone almost totally digital (with only specific jobs requiring scanning of a physical object).

One off he first points I raised (and asked for) was that without seeing the piece he wanted to scan, I could not make an assessment of whether scanning it would be worthwhile (or how much it might cost). Others have asked to see the figure as well, but the OP has not posted an image of it (which may be through no fault of his).

There are a lot of things that would affect whether sculpting another original or scanning would be more worthwhile.

But based upon 15 years of experience with working with digital scanning... It is usually easier to re-sculpt many pieces (especially small ones) than it is to scan it, if all you want is ONE copy.

If you want multiple copies then scanning it would make more sense.

MB

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/24 09:17:23


 
   
 
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