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Hi Guys,

This is my first take at a WoC army list. Haven't played many games but hope to start playing at my local game store. This is what I have for now. Would love to know how I can improve. The big question I have is, Is this army too character heavy?

2500 Pts - Warriors of Chaos Roster

Chaos Warhounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds, 30 pts (Swiftstride)

Chaos Warhounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds, 30 pts (Swiftstride)

Festus the Leechlord (19#, 572 pts)
1 Festus the Leechlord, 190 pts (Level 2 Wizard; Hand Weapon; Eye of the Gods; Harbinger of Pestilence; Healing Elixirs; Mark of Nurgle; Poisoned Attacks; Regeneration)
1 Pestilent Potions
1 The Lore of Nurgle (- Bloated with Disease)
1 1. Miasma of Pestilence
1 3. Curse of the Leper
17 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle, 382 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Mark of Nurgle; Hand Weapon; Additional Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour; Shield; Extra Attack)
1 Aspiring Champion of Nurgle (Mark of Nurgle; Hand Weapon; Additional Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour; Shield; Eye of the Gods; Extra Attack)
1 Banner of Eternal Flame (Flaming Attacks)

Exalted Hero (19#, 586 pts)
1 ×Exalted Hero of Khorne, 199 pts (Battle Standard Bearer; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Chaos Armour; Shield; Extra Attack; Eye of the Gods; Frenzy; Immune to Psychology)
1 Sword of Anti-Heroes
1 Dragonhelm
1 Luckstone
17 Chaos Warriors of Khorne, 387 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Additional Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour; Shield; Extra Attack; Frenzy; Immune to Psychology; Extra Attack)
1 Aspiring Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Additional Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour; Shield; Extra Attack; Eye of the Gods; Frenzy; Immune to Psychology; Extra Attack)
1 Banner of Swiftness

Chaos Lord (9#, 685 pts)
1 ×Chaos Lord of Khorne, 315 pts (General; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Flail; Chaos Armour; Shield; Extra Attack; Eye of the Gods; Frenzy; Immune to Psychology; Barding)
1 Fencer's Blades (Extra Attack)
1 Ironcurse Icon
1 Scaled Skin (Scaly Skin (5+))
1 Chaos Steed (Swiftstride)
8 Chaos Knights of Khorne, 370 pts (Musician Mus; Mark of Khorne; Barding; Hand Weapon; Ensorcelled Weapons; Chaos Armour; Shield; Extra Attack; Fear; Frenzy; Immune to Psychology)
8 Chaos Steed (Swiftstride)

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (2#, 385 pts)
1 Chaos Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch, 385 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Level 4 Wizard; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour; Eye of the Gods)
1 Charmed Shield
1 Talisman of Preservation
1 Soul Feeder
1 Third Eye of Tzeentch
1 The Lore of Tzeentch (- Boon of Magic)
1 0. Blue Fire of Tzeentch (Warpflame)
1 2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch (Warpflame)
1 3. Bolt of Change (Multiple Wounds (D3); Warpflame)
1 6. Infernal Gateway (Warpflame)
1 Disc of Tzeentch (Daemonic Attacks; Fear; Fly; Swiftstride)

Hellcannon (4#, 210 pts)
1 Hellcannon, 210 pts (Caged Fury; Daemonic Attacks; Deamonic Construction; Doomfire; Immune to Psychology; Large Target; Monster and Handlers; Terror; Unbreakable; Move or Fire; Multiple Wounds (D6); Slow to Fire)
3 Chaos Dwarf Handlers (Hand Weapon)

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 700 (0 - 1250)
Points of Heroes: 389 (0 - 1250)
Points of Core: 829 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 370 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 210 (0 - 625)

Total Roster Cost: 2498

toufeeq wrote:
The big question I have is, Is this army too character heavy?

In short? I don't think so, each dude adds pretty significantly to their units or is a disc lord keeping things blasty from his disc. I do however think all of the characters can be made stronger - I guess with the exception of Festy

On your list, I had some trouble reading it, so transcribed to the below:

Sorcerer Lord - MoT, level 4 (TIZZ), soul feeder, third eye, talisman of preservation, charmed shield, disc = 385
Chaos Lord - MoK, scaled skin, fencer's blades, ironcurse, flail, shield, chaos steed = 315

Exalted Hero - MoK, BSB, sword of anti-heroes, dragonhelm, luckstone, great weapon, shield = 199
Festus = 190

18 Warriors - MoK, full command (swiftness), ahw, shield = 387
18 Warriors - MoN, full command (eternal flame), ahw, shield = 382
5 Warhounds = 30
5 Warhounds = 30

8 Knights - MoK, musician, ensorcelled = 370

Hellcannon = 210
----------
2498

Things in bold above are changes I'd look into, addressed in the unit breakdown to follow. Ready?

Sorcerer Lord - Solid build, extreme levels of protection with the mobility of the disc. You might consider an arcane item (dispel scroll, earthing rod, etc) for him as he has the points for it. Drop soul feeder though, as this guy isn't all that fighty, and you will very rarely want him in combat anyway, unless you're using him to generate CR in a combo charge (like rear charging somebody), kill a war machine or tank something nasty out.

Chaos Lord - Scaled skin and the flail do nothing, as his armor is already maxed out (1+) without the skin, and he can't swing the flail if he has a magic weapon. Thing is, I'd also recommend dropping the fencer's blades, as he can't benefit from the paired weapons while mounted, so you're paying 35 points for WS10, which isn't much different from his starting WS! Instead, I'd probably give him the sword of anti-heroes or maybe an ogre blade or sword of swift-slaying / striking - basically, you want higher strength or better attaks (i.e. ASF). I do think anti-heroes would be a good fit, as his speed means he can plunge into the enemy deathstar and juice up. I would also give him a dawnstone so his 1+ is rerolled. Cheap way to amp up his defense against many things. And you remember that soul feeder? This is an excellent place for it

Exalted BSB - So to start, he can't swing his great weapon if he has a magic weapon, so there's wasted points. In general on BSBs, what you is defense above all else, though in the case of WoC you can usually spend a little on fightiness, since their stats are so pimp. You know that scaled skin off the lord? This lad will happily take it off his hands in exchange for the sword of anti-heroes. The skin gets him to 2+ armor, which dragonhelm jumps up to 1+. From there, you've got the points to splurge on a 5+ ward if you want, or you can keep it cheap with that luckstone if you like. I would then drop the great weapon and shield to get a halberd, giving him the high strength his unit needs from him, but not sacrificing his high initiative.

Warriors - First, I myself would drop them all to 17 so that their characters make them a happy 18 (6-wide) when in there. As the characters can't go in any other unit, it just makes for good aesthetics to me. After that, I would advise against taking eternal flame on any of your blocks, as it is very easy to counter with flaming wards, and your army has few avenues of attak as it is, to have a 600 point one stuck against a 2+ ward character for ages. If you want a counter to flaming, think about putting burning body on a character without a magic weapon: the exalted or the disc lord, most likely. This character can bop regen things and then have slightly slower warriors finish them off, without an entire unit getting neutered against fire wards. Or just shrug and break the regen with dice. And third, are these warriors built? Halberds, halberds + shields or shields are preferable to ahw. The additional hand weapon benefits only the front rank, while halberds or shields benefit everyone. Frankly, halberds are the best option available (with shields for ranged defense), though shields alone are runner up. If you already have the models built with ahw, then that's fine, 5 more S4 attaks is ok, if not really worth 17/18 points a unit.

Knights - Do you have a 9th knight model? I'd add that in, to make an even 10 (5-wide to start, probably expanding to grind in combat) with the lord. These guys would also be pretty happy with a standard, as the CR is useful and they've got the numbers to protect it. If you need a magic banner, maybe lichebone? They WILL be hit with armor-ignoring magic, so a 6+ ward could help a bit.

So all of that looks like this:

Sorcerer Lord - MoT, level 4 (TIZZ), third eye, talisman of preservation, charmed shield, disc
Chaos Lord - MoK, soul feeder, sword of anti-heroes, dawnstone, ironcurse, shield, chaos steed

Exalted Hero - MoK, BSB, scaled skin, dragonhelm, luckstone, halberd
Festus

17 Warriors - MoK, full command (swiftness), ahw, shield
17 Warriors - MoN, full command, ahw, shield
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

9 Knights - MoK, standard (lichebone), musician, ensorcelled

Hellcannon = 210
------------
~2500

The points should be pretty similar, if not a little under, in which case there are some more gifts to slop around and such. Hope all that helps, and good luck!

EDIT
One more thing. In your army list, it looks like you preselected your spells? That's not generally how it works, you'll be rolling them up before each game (though I do think Festus has at least one preselected for him?)

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:

toufeeq wrote:
The big question I have is, Is this army too character heavy?

In short? I don't think so, each dude adds pretty significantly to their units or is a disc lord keeping things blasty from his disc. I do however think all of the characters can be made stronger - I guess with the exception of Festy

The overall thematic goal of this army is to be character driven. Apart from the Hounds and the cannon, every unit has a leader. I'm glad you think its a viable list.

Boss Salvage wrote:On your list, I had some trouble reading it, so transcribed to the below:

Sorry about that, I copy pasted from Army Builder. I'll follow your formatting for any updates.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Sorcerer Lord - Solid build, extreme levels of protection with the mobility of the disc. You might consider an arcane item (dispel scroll, earthing rod, etc) for him as he has the points for it. Drop soul feeder though, as this guy isn't all that fighty, and you will very rarely want him in combat anyway, unless you're using him to generate CR in a combo charge (like rear charging somebody), kill a war machine or tank something nasty out.

Chaos Lord - Scaled skin and the flail do nothing, as his armor is already maxed out (1+) without the skin, and he can't swing the flail if he has a magic weapon. Thing is, I'd also recommend dropping the fencer's blades, as he can't benefit from the paired weapons while mounted, so you're paying 35 points for WS10, which isn't much different from his starting WS! Instead, I'd probably give him the sword of anti-heroes or maybe an ogre blade or sword of swift-slaying / striking - basically, you want higher strength or better attaks (i.e. ASF). I do think anti-heroes would be a good fit, as his speed means he can plunge into the enemy deathstar and juice up. I would also give him a dawnstone so his 1+ is rerolled. Cheap way to amp up his defense against many things. And you remember that soul feeder? This is an excellent place for it

Exalted BSB - So to start, he can't swing his great weapon if he has a magic weapon, so there's wasted points. In general on BSBs, what you is defense above all else, though in the case of WoC you can usually spend a little on fightiness, since their stats are so pimp. You know that scaled skin off the lord? This lad will happily take it off his hands in exchange for the sword of anti-heroes. The skin gets him to 2+ armor, which dragonhelm jumps up to 1+. From there, you've got the points to splurge on a 5+ ward if you want, or you can keep it cheap with that luckstone if you like. I would then drop the great weapon and shield to get a halberd, giving him the high strength his unit needs from him, but not sacrificing his high initiative.

Thanks for clarifying those roles and the rules around wielding magical weapons. I had an idea of what characters I wanted in my unit but my item allocation didn't factor in what they would actually be doing in battle. Now, I have a clearer idea. Chaos Lord is the fast attack option while the Exalted Hero is the defensive one marching with his Khorne warriors. The Sorc Lord is just going to fly around, cast, rear charge and maybe issue challenges(?)

Boss Salvage wrote:
Warriors - First, I myself would drop them all to 17 so that their characters make them a happy 18 (6-wide) when in there. As the characters can't go in any other unit, it just makes for good aesthetics to me. After that, I would advise against taking eternal flame on any of your blocks, as it is very easy to counter with flaming wards, and your army has few avenues of attak as it is, to have a 600 point one stuck against a 2+ ward character for ages. If you want a counter to flaming, think about putting burning body on a character without a magic weapon: the exalted or the disc lord, most likely. This character can bop regen things and then have slightly slower warriors finish them off, without an entire unit getting neutered against fire wards. Or just shrug and break the regen with dice. And third, are these warriors built? Halberds, halberds + shields or shields are preferable to ahw. The additional hand weapon benefits only the front rank, while halberds or shields benefit everyone. Frankly, halberds are the best option available (with shields for ranged defense), though shields alone are runner up. If you already have the models built with ahw, then that's fine, 5 more S4 attaks is ok, if not really worth 17/18 points a unit.

Is it a rule to have full ranks at the start of battle? I can see why its an aesthetic issue.
I also had a question around units made up of models with different base sizes. If I had a 50mm square model in a 25mm base unit, and I had the 50mm base + 5x 25mm base models making up the first rank, what counts as a full rank for the second rank? 4 models of 25mm or 5models of 25mm?

My second question is one of aesthetics as well. I started putting together my models based on what I like, some have two weapons and some have a weapon and a shield. I know the Halberds are part of an upgrade pack that I need to purchase. How important is it to have the right weapons on the models? Guess it wouldn't matter for games I play at my local game store?

As per your advice, I've dropped the AHW on the Nurgle warriors but retained them on the Khorne unit. I figure the Khorne unit is going to be the more attacking of the 2 units and will probably get into battle faster due to their Banner of Swiftness so the additional attack should help. I dropped the Flaming Banner on the Nurgle. Both units now have 17 warriors + 1 character.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Knights - Do you have a 9th knight model? I'd add that in, to make an even 10 (5-wide to start, probably expanding to grind in combat) with the lord. These guys would also be pretty happy with a standard, as the CR is useful and they've got the numbers to protect it. If you need a magic banner, maybe lichebone? They WILL be hit with armor-ignoring magic, so a 6+ ward could help a bit.

Yes, I do! Again the Chaos Lord goes in this unit so its 4+CLord in the first rank and 5 in the next(?). Didn't have enough points for banner.

This is my final List (mostly yours with some slight modifications).

Sorcerer Lord - MoT, level 4 (TIZZ), third eye of tzeentch, talisman of preservation, charmed shield, disc, warrior bane
Chaos Lord - MoK, soul feeder, sword of swift slaying, dawnstone, ironcurse, shield, chaos steed

Exalted Hero - MoK, BSB, sword of anti-heroes, scaled skin, dragonhelm, luckstone, halberd
Festus

17 Warriors - MoK, full command (swiftness), ahw, shield
17 Warriors - MoN, full command, shield
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

9 Knights - MoK, musician, ensorcelled

Hellcannon = 210
------------
~2500

Boss Salvage wrote:
One more thing. In your army list, it looks like you preselected your spells? That's not generally how it works, you'll be rolling them up before each game (though I do think Festus has at least one preselected for him?)

Yeah, I guess I checked a few boxes in Army Builder and it added it to the roster.

Thanks for your detailed summary. Things are far more clear now and I actually understand what the goal for each of the gear items are.

toufeeq wrote:
Is it a rule to have full ranks at the start of battle? I can see why its an aesthetic issue.

Not remotely any rules to require it, and the floater technically helps maintain your third rank simply by providing another ablative dude until you lose the rank bonus in combat (5-min in a rank for most things). Pretty much just aesthetics and having more useful things to do with the 18th dudes' points.

I also had a question around units made up of models with different base sizes. If I had a 50mm square model in a 25mm base unit, and I had the 50mm base + 5x 25mm base models making up the first rank, what counts as a full rank for the second rank? 4 models of 25mm or 5models of 25mm?

So your front rank is 5x 25 + 1x 50? The second rank would be 5x 25 as well + the back half of the 50 square, and the third rank would be 7x 25, then so on. Like so:



Below that is an example of a 50mm character in a 5-wide unit, and I've included command model placement in both - the champ can go anywhere in the front rank, as can the standard / musician (though their placement means nothing, while the champ's can matter). You'll also notice the bright red squares: these are locations in which a second 25mm character can stand. In the first case, somewhere in the front where command models are not (so in fact he could be anywhere, you'd just shuffle the command around); in the second, he must ride the second rank, as command models must be in the front, and the 50mm hero is taking up the other spots. In combat characters in rear ranks can make way to anywhere they like in the front, pushing command models (likely standard or musician) to rear ranks, or simply hide in the back if they don't want to be targetable - like pansy sorcerers or something. They'll still get 1 supporting attak though.

There's more to this game of characters within units, and it has some serious implications for combats, generally by pushing highly armored / tough characters into strategic locations to absorb damage while they and their fighty (but largely untouchable) unit dish it back. Ogres are the kings of this, though clearly chaos can do it too.

Oh, and the 50mm character doesn't have to go into a corner, however he is much better at absorbing incoming attaks there, whether the unit contacts enemy to the front or his flank.

My second question is one of aesthetics as well. I started putting together my models based on what I like, some have two weapons and some have a weapon and a shield. I know the Halberds are part of an upgrade pack that I need to purchase. How important is it to have the right weapons on the models? Guess it wouldn't matter for games I play at my local game store?

You'll find many people are very forgiving with WYSIWYG modeling, generally just asking that the majority of a unit's models be armed with whatever it is you say they're armed with. For warriors you're probably fine if at the very least the front rank has what you say they have - I actually like the 'rabble' look with lots of weapons, but you just don't want to be confusing on the table. As for the halberd pack, most players use the lances off the plastic knights. Because let's admit it: they aren't using them!

This is my final List (mostly yours with some slight modifications).

Sorcerer Lord - MoT, level 4 (TIZZ), third eye of tzeentch, talisman of preservation, charmed shield, disc, warrior bane
Chaos Lord - MoK, soul feeder, sword of swift slaying, dawnstone, ironcurse, shield, chaos steed

Exalted Hero - MoK, BSB, sword of anti-heroes, scaled skin, dragonhelm, luckstone, halberd
Festus

17 Warriors - MoK, full command (swiftness), ahw, shield
17 Warriors - MoN, full command, shield
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

9 Knights - MoK, musician, ensorcelled

Hellcannon = 210
------------
~2500

Your BSB can't swing that halberd, so there's 6 points. But if you're using the sword of anti-heroes, you could drop the d-helm and pick up a shield to max his save out ... which is to say, I'm pretty sure I can find you points for that knight standard

Speaking of weapons, while I like ASF on the lord, it means your army is geared toward killing infantry and isn't particularly good at breaking armor, and there is a LOT of armor in the meta now, and very little infantry bar a few armies. Hence my arguments for SoAH or ogre blade on the lord + halberd on the BSB. That or we can try to strangle the list for razor banner on the knight bus. Keep SoSS on the lord, drop anti-heroes and warrior bane, keep halberd, drop swiftness, and we start creeping closer to the points needed ...

Anyway, a thought on breaking armor and/or fighting tough things. Glad I could help!

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Below that is an example of a 50mm character in a 5-wide unit, and I've included command model placement in both - the champ can go anywhere in the front rank, as can the standard / musician (though their placement means nothing, while the champ's can matter). You'll also notice the bright red squares: these are locations in which a second 25mm character can stand. In the first case, somewhere in the front where command models are not (so in fact he could be anywhere, you'd just shuffle the command around); in the second, he must ride the second rank, as command models must be in the front, and the 50mm hero is taking up the other spots. In combat characters in rear ranks can make way to anywhere they like in the front, pushing command models (likely standard or musician) to rear ranks, or simply hide in the back if they don't want to be targetable - like pansy sorcerers or something. They'll still get 1 supporting attak though.

Thanks you for that. The explanation and images cleared up a lot of things. As per my understanding, I can have Festus hang back in the Nurgle unit while they march and after a charge is declared, I can have him move to the front to attack. The Khorne unit will have the Hero in the front at all times so he can issue challenges.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
There's more to this game of characters within units, and it has some serious implications for combats, generally by pushing highly armored / tough characters into strategic locations to absorb damage while they and their fighty (but largely untouchable) unit dish it back. Ogres are the kings of this, though clearly chaos can do it too.

Oh, and the 50mm character doesn't have to go into a corner, however he is much better at absorbing incoming attaks there, whether the unit contacts enemy to the front or his flank.

Yes, I've seen this in some battle reports where the character jumps out of the unit to take on a screen unit while the main unit continues on. I feel I have a sense for how these rules play out but untill I actually do this in a real battle I wouldn't know who to use this strategy.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Your BSB can't swing that halberd, so there's 6 points. But if you're using the sword of anti-heroes, you could drop the d-helm and pick up a shield to max his save out ... which is to say, I'm pretty sure I can find you points for that knight standard

So I modified the BSB as per your recommendations and this is what I have now:

Exalted Hero - MoK, BSB, sword of battle, charmed shield, chalice of chaos, scaled skin, luckstone

I figured the Chalice could be a good buff before a challenge or before combat. Would also be good to roll for a Daemon Prince
I added the sword of battle for a +1 Attack
I'm hoping this unit of Chaos Warriors is the faster of the two to get into battle and hence would like to preserve the banner of swiftness on it.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Speaking of weapons, while I like ASF on the lord, it means your army is geared toward killing infantry and isn't particularly good at breaking armor, and there is a LOT of armor in the meta now, and very little infantry bar a few armies. Hence my arguments for SoAH or ogre blade on the lord + halberd on the BSB. That or we can try to strangle the list for razor banner on the knight bus. Keep SoSS on the lord, drop anti-heroes and warrior bane, keep halberd, drop swiftness, and we start creeping closer to the points needed ...

Got it! So I modified the Lord as per your advice:

Chaos Lord - MoK, soul feeder, sword of anti heroes, dawnstone, ironcurse, shield, chaos steed

In addition, I also got a Banner on the Knights. I could only get the Razor standard if I dropped the swiftness banner on the Khorne warriors because of points.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Anyway, a thought on breaking armor and/or fighting tough things. Glad I could help!

Thanks again for the help. I've picked up quite a few ideas from the BRB and by watching Battle Reports but have always had questions go unanswered.

toufeeq wrote:
Thanks you for that. The explanation and images cleared up a lot of things. As per my understanding, I can have Festus hang back in the Nurgle unit while they march and after a charge is declared, I can have him move to the front to attack. The Khorne unit will have the Hero in the front at all times so he can issue challenges.

Actually, characters must go in the front at all times unless there is no room after command + other heroes. And given your marks, all of your characters will be in their front ranks: Festus + 5 Warriors of Nurgle (C/S/M + 2), BSB + 5 Warriors of Khorne (C/S/M + 2), Lord + 4 Knights (C/S/M + 1). Nobody hangs out with the Tizz guy

So I modified the BSB as per your recommendations and this is what I have now:

Exalted Hero - MoK, BSB, sword of battle, charmed shield, chalice of chaos, scaled skin, luckstone

If given a choice between more attaks or better attaks, you want better attaks. Sword of Swift Slaying statistically results in more hits than +1A by itself - after fighting some elves you'll appreciate the powers of rerolling your to hits! If not the ASF sword, Sword of Might is always a classic, and S6 will certainly help wreck some face.

Chaos Lord - MoK, soul feeder, sword of anti heroes, dawnstone, ironcurse, shield, chaos steed

Dig it!

Good luck out on the field of battle

- Salvage

Re-visiting an older thread as I didn't want to start a new one. So I played this list a couple of times and now debating the pros and cons of having One giant deathstar unit of Chaos Knights + Chaos Lord or have 2 units of Chaos Knights MoK with the Chaos Lord bunkered in one of them. Obviously, making this change means I need to cut points somewhere and I'm not sure if I should loose my warhounds or nerf my Chaos Sorc Lord on Disc. I could make him a Level 3 instead of 4 and loose the Talisman of Preservation.

Other option is to mark the second unit as Slaneesh and not Khorne and I save some points and get the Sorc Lord a Talisman of Protection. He is still going to be Level 3 though.

So my questions for this modification:
- Is the 2 units of Knights vs 1 a good option. This makes the original death-star less killy but I feel I now have flexibility.
- Does making the Sorc Lord a Level 3 with 6+ ward save reduce his effectiveness?

Thanks!