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So I want to put together a "Monsters of Chaos" army with no humans in the list. Here is my "Dragon Troll" army. The goal here is to fly the dragon in, cause havoc while Throgg marches with his trolls and throws up on anyone left.

5x Warhounds
5x Warhounds
17x Chaos Trolls: Hand Weapon; Additional Hand Weapon; Fear; Immune to Psychology; Regeneration; Stupidity; Troll Vomit; Extra Attack
Throgg: Great Weapon; Copious Vomit; Eye of the Gods; Fear; Lord of the Monstrous Horde; Mutant Regeneration; Regeneration; Troll Vomit; Always Strikes Last
Galrauch: General; Level 4 Wizard; Breath of Change; Dark Fire of Chaos; Fly; Large Target; Mark of Tzeentch; Scaly Skin (3+); Spirit of Galrauch; Swiftstride; Terror; Flaming Attacks
6x Dragon Ogres: Hand Weapon; Additional Hand Weapon; Light Armor; Fear; Scaly Skin (5+); Storm Rage; Extra Attack
2x Dragon Ogre Shaggoth: Hand Weapon; Additional Hand Weapon; Light Armor; Immune to Psychology; Large Target; Scaly Skin (5+); Storm Rage; Terror; Extra Attack
1x Chimera: Flaming Breath; Regenerating Flesh; Fiend Tail; Fly; Large Target; Regeneration; Scaly Skin (4+); Swiftstride; Terror; Thunderstomp; Flaming Attacks

For a 2000pt List, I would scale down on the Shaggoths, Trolls and maybe loose the Chimera if 1000-1500. Maybe swap out the Chimera for a Hellcannon?
Some problems I see here:
Some problems I see here:
[list]This is a very low count army so not sure about viability against Skaven, TK and VL.
[list]There is no BSB. Throgg has the attributes of a BSB with his Leadership/Crown but I don't think he provides the fortitude of a BSB
[list]This is a not a tournament list as the fortitude is 2! :( Since this is pure fluff, I might just be able to play this list at local games(which is fine by me).
[list]I cant seem to find Chaos trolls, so the only alternate is River Trolls and paint them with the Chaos trolls theme.

Solving for fortitude
The only alternate for solving the fortitude problem and making it GT-ready is to have 2 units of chaos ogres with full command which should take the fortitude to 4. I would loose a Shaggoth, 2 Dragon Ogres and the Chimera but I'm not too happy with humanoids in it.

Thoughts/Comments/Critique welcome..

MONSTER MASH IS GO!

toufeeq wrote:
Some problems I see here:

This is a very low count army so not sure about viability against Skaven, TK and VL.

There is no BSB. Throgg has the attributes of a BSB with his Leadership/Crown but I don't think he provides the fortitude of a BSB

This is a not a tournament list as the fortitude is 2! :( Since this is pure fluff, I might just be able to play this list at local games(which is fine by me).

I cant seem to find Chaos trolls, so the only alternate is River Trolls and paint them with the Chaos trolls theme.

You've got FOUR breath weapons and FOUR t-stompers, massed infantry is not your concern Dodging Purple Suns and surviving opening cannon rounds, now that's another story ...

Most monster mashes include a Tizz BSB on disc, but that lad's a mortal, so I guess Throggy it is.

It can totally still be a tournament army without fortitude, it just means you auto-lose the VP or BP related to B&G missions (tournaments virtually never use the 'auto lose the game' part of B&G) ... but I agree with the ogre deal, only place to pick up fortitude.

The official chaos trolls are considered some of the worst models GeeDub has made, beaten funnily enough by the chaos ogres Plastic river trolls are totes the way to go, with appropriate chaos-ification of course.

I also have a fifth bullet for you:

The troll horde is a bad idea, and virtually ensures that Throgg and his boys will never see combat, and likely give up half of their enormous points against opponents equipped to punish the horde down to under 25%

So in tackling the list, my goal was to keep as many models in there - especially Galrauch + Throgg - while splitting the trolls down and shoving in some chaos ogres with flags. Here's the result:

Galrauch = 510
Throgg = 195
8 Trolls - ahw = 304
7 Trolls - ahw = 266
5 Warhounds = 30
5 Warhounds = 30
6 Ogres - full command, great weapons = 270
4 Ogres - standard, musician, great weapons = 180
Chimera - regen, breath = 275
Shaggoth - ahw = 220
Shaggoth - ahw = 220
---------
2500

(^ This is based on the assumption that a chaos ogre with great weapon costs 40 points ...)

While the smaller troll units are far more susceptible to dying than the horde, they're also FAR more likely to make combat with something that isn't chaff, while still being fairly formidable units, especially with Throgg along. They also just make core allotment with the help of the hounds Otherwise, I cut the drogres - who are so often mediocre, while also taking up a lot of board real estate with those giant bases - to pay for the ogres, who are really not bad, just outclassed by the usual WoC offerings (i.e. chimeras). I'd recommend running the 4 ogres only 2-wide, creating a 2x2 brick of S6 pain.

I dig the list, happy to see so many big monsters ready to frolic all over the enemy. Personally I prefer Kholek over Galrauch when it comes to uber-monster, but then you'd likely need to stoop to mortals to find some magic presence, so Gally it is.

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:

You've got FOUR breath weapons and FOUR t-stompers, massed infantry is not your concern Dodging Purple Suns and surviving opening cannon rounds, now that's another story ...

My tactic for cannons and purple suns is to fan out the army as much as possible and get the Warhounds to gaurd/screen the Trolls+Throgg unit. Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths are spread out. I might clump the Chimera with Galrauch to protect it from cannons/spells.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Most monster mashes include a Tizz BSB on disc, but that lad's a mortal, so I guess Throggy it is.

It can totally still be a tournament army without fortitude, it just means you auto-lose the VP or BP related to B&G missions (tournaments virtually never use the 'auto lose the game' part of B&G) ... but I agree with the ogre deal, only place to pick up fortitude.

The official chaos trolls are considered some of the worst models GeeDub has made, beaten funnily enough by the chaos ogres Plastic river trolls are totes the way to go, with appropriate chaos-ification of course.

Yeah, I'm not too excited about painting those ugly ogres. The models seem like they are from a different generation

 Boss Salvage wrote:
I also have a fifth bullet for you:

The troll horde is a bad idea, and virtually ensures that Throgg and his boys will never see combat, and likely give up half of their enormous points against opponents equipped to punish the horde down to under 25%

So this is where I had a question. Would it be possible to use Throgg as a charge redirect if faced with chaff/screen units. The way I see it playing in my head is, I see a chaff unit charging me, I pop Throgg out the unit and he acts as a redirect, The Trolls maneuver around the chaff but still remain within 18" of Throgg. I know that sounds good on paper and actual execution might be tricky but was curious to know if that is a viable tactic with this strategy?

 Boss Salvage wrote:
So in tackling the list, my goal was to keep as many models in there - especially Galrauch + Throgg - while splitting the trolls down and shoving in some chaos ogres with flags. Here's the result:

Galrauch = 510
Throgg = 195
8 Trolls - ahw = 304
7 Trolls - ahw = 266
5 Warhounds = 30
5 Warhounds = 30
6 Ogres - full command, great weapons = 270
4 Ogres - standard, musician, great weapons = 180
Chimera - regen, breath = 275
Shaggoth - ahw = 220
Shaggoth - ahw = 220
---------
2500

I see this purely as a thematic army and loosing the Dragon Ogres and just having Shaggoths with Ogres, a Chimera and a Dragon, its starting to look more like a (pardon the expression)"carnival army". I'd rather have a sub-par, fluffy army than a optimized one as I have my other WoC army that is optimized for winning. I'm building this one for the lulz but would like to table it in smaller tournaments.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
While the smaller troll units are far more susceptible to dying than the horde, they're also FAR more likely to make combat with something that isn't chaff, while still being fairly formidable units, especially with Throgg along. They also just make core allotment with the help of the hounds Otherwise, I cut the drogres - who are so often mediocre, while also taking up a lot of board real estate with those giant bases - to pay for the ogres, who are really not bad, just outclassed by the usual WoC offerings (i.e. chimeras). I'd recommend running the 4 ogres only 2-wide, creating a 2x2 brick of S6 pain.

Again I really am hoping I can use Throgg as a charge redirect and get him to take chaff charges away from the entire unit. Is there any other tactic I could use? If that fails, I guess breaking them up makes sense but I would like to see one happy ugly family of trolls marching down the table

 Boss Salvage wrote:
I dig the list, happy to see so many big monsters ready to frolic all over the enemy. Personally I prefer Kholek over Galrauch when it comes to uber-monster, but then you'd likely need to stoop to mortals to find some magic presence, so Gally it is.

I hadn't thought of Kholek, it makes way more sense than Galrauch. Let me sleep on it. As usual, you astound me with your pearls of wisdom.

toufeeq wrote:
My tactic for cannons and purple suns is to fan out the army as much as possible and get the Warhounds to gaurd/screen the Trolls+Throgg unit. Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths are spread out. I might clump the Chimera with Galrauch to protect it from cannons/spells.

Those warhounds will do nothing to stop cannonballs, and even less to screen purple suns. Best tactic for cannons is probably going to be shoving everything forward to flood the field with targets, then get stuck in - including shoving all your fast things at the cannons themselves. The chimera could screen Galrauch if you wanted, by standing in between the cannon and the dragon, then either catch the cannonball with his regen or absorb it with its wounds (the ball has to clear him before it can travel into Galrauch). As for purple sun defense, either throw all your dice to stop it or kill the caster ASAP.

So this is where I had a question. Would it be possible to use Throgg as a charge redirect if faced with chaff/screen units. The way I see it playing in my head is, I see a chaff unit charging me, I pop Throgg out the unit and he acts as a redirect, The Trolls maneuver around the chaff but still remain within 18" of Throgg. I know that sounds good on paper and actual execution might be tricky but was curious to know if that is a viable tactic with this strategy?

In short, no. In long, chaff redirection doesn't work by them charging you, it works by the chaff sitting in an awkward place in front of your unit and blocking it from moving (often from charging). If done correctly, there often won't be a place for Throgg to stand at all, and if he can charge out, it's not going to save the trollstar any time getting where it wants - it will actually slow it down if you want Throgg to join back up with them.

Here's a diagram of common redirection cases you'll face:



In both cases Throgg (dark green square) could charge out ... but he may as well stay with the star as they squish through the redirectors, then reform afterwards to face where they wanted to go in the first place. If Big T charges out, the redirectors still die, but now Throgg is vulnerable to being killed, then has to spend next turn rejoining the horde if you want him to charge with it, then the following turn they can attempt to charge something.

The solution to having your deathstar be redirected is a) kill the redirectors; or b) break your threats up across units, particularly avoiding a deathstar with such a gigantic frontage!

I see this purely as a thematic army and loosing the Dragon Ogres and just having Shaggoths with Ogres, a Chimera and a Dragon, its starting to look more like a (pardon the expression)"carnival army". I'd rather have a sub-par, fluffy army than a optimized one as I have my other WoC army that is optimized for winning. I'm building this one for the lulz but would like to table it in smaller tournaments.

Bro! The list I shopped up there is so clearly a "sub-par" or "theme-y" or "fluffy" monster mash of a list, even without cuddly wuddly drogres in there! And what I did wasn't "optimize it for winning," it addressed a problem that you asked to have addressed, with minimal changes to the heart of the list! Sorry for the exclamations, but you seem to have grievously mistaken my approach to both list design and list commentary.

I guess breaking them up makes sense but I would like to see one happy ugly family of trolls marching down the table

And so the trollstar would look really cool marching down the table, but in all honesty against most opponents it will not be allowed to do anything but march down the table, slowly leaking models in some cases, utterly untouched but redirected into tiny handfuls of VP in others. Splitting the trolls up was my solution to having you do something with your models beyond look neat and move around - hell, even moving may be an overstatement, as there are ways to make that Stupidity test difficult to pass (I'd use Treason on you, others D&D, and so on). They would certainly retain their VP in the vast majority of games ... but is that fun? It's certainly deathstar-y, though that's never been my style.

I hadn't thought of Kholek, it makes way more sense than Galrauch. Let me sleep on it. As usual, you astound me with your pearls of wisdom.

There are a lot of things I like better about Kholek, apart from the fact that he's just a badass! Clearly the trade is that Big K costs more than Big G and removes your magic phase, en lieu of a mortal caster to replace him. His lightning shot gives you a pretty brutal shooting attak to replace whatever Galrauch was going to do (likely Gateway something for the most part), and on the question of survivability my money is on Kholek, even without a ward.

- Salvage

Have you looked at the Chaos Wastes battlescroll?

It's some Dragon Ogres, Giants, Spawns, and other beasties that get to ambush. It might fit nicely.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

toufeeq wrote:
My tactic for cannons and purple suns is to fan out the army as much as possible and get the Warhounds to gaurd/screen the Trolls+Throgg unit. Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths are spread out. I might clump the Chimera with Galrauch to protect it from cannons/spells.

Those warhounds will do nothing to stop cannonballs, and even less to screen purple suns. Best tactic for cannons is probably going to be shoving everything forward to flood the field with targets, then get stuck in - including shoving all your fast things at the cannons themselves. The chimera could screen Galrauch if you wanted, by standing in between the cannon and the dragon, then either catch the cannonball with his regen or absorb it with its wounds (the ball has to clear him before it can travel into Galrauch). As for purple sun defense, either throw all your dice to stop it or kill the caster ASAP.

Got it! Yeah, the tactic definitely is to march things up as far as possible. Since this is a low model count list, I'll be done with deployment first and will be marching headlong into the army.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

toufeeq wrote:
So this is where I had a question. Would it be possible to use Throgg as a charge redirect if faced with chaff/screen units. The way I see it playing in my head is, I see a chaff unit charging me, I pop Throgg out the unit and he acts as a redirect, The Trolls maneuver around the chaff but still remain within 18" of Throgg. I know that sounds good on paper and actual execution might be tricky but was curious to know if that is a viable tactic with this strategy?

In short, no. In long, chaff redirection doesn't work by them charging you, it works by the chaff sitting in an awkward place in front of your unit and blocking it from moving (often from charging). If done correctly, there often won't be a place for Throgg to stand at all, and if he can charge out, it's not going to save the trollstar any time getting where it wants - it will actually slow it down if you want Throgg to join back up with them.

Got it. So much for that strategy then. I also realized that charges are declared before movement phase so I would have to anticipate a charge (next turn), pop out Throgg, move him in front and pivot the trollstar. I see why splitting the Trolls intro two units makes so much sense now.

toufeeq wrote:
Now the problem is finding a Kholek model. I looked around and there seems to be one out there but its either OOP or custom made. I could use a Shaggoth model as proxy or Galrauch himself(because I kinda want to paint him) but that's not fun.. :(

All the Kholek models you find will be "custom", GW never did one. The "OOP" one you're thinking of was a 3rd party model based off the artwork, one of the Russian companies I believe.

 Platuan4th wrote:
All the Kholek models you find will be "custom", GW never did one. The "OOP" one you're thinking of was a 3rd party model based off the artwork, one of the Russian companies I believe.

Any idea what size base I should be using if I were to create my own?
Both the Shaggoth and Galrauch are on a 50mm square base but a Dragon Ogre is on a 50mmx75mm and the Chimera is on a 50mmx100m?!
Surely, Galrauch is bigger than a Chimera!

I run Kholek on the carnosaurs base (50 x 100 i believe?)

Personally, i would also take him over the dragon as the damage output he has is simply insane.
With this kind of list it draws fire from everywhere too.

As a side note, all dwarf armies having flaming for cannons, so they will be troll hunting an leave kholek be.

However, after the first time he gets into combat its all eyes on him while he smashes apart anything near him.

Just keep in mind that if you run kholek it means losing magic from the dragon.



Ill dig out some pics too as my kholek is made from a carnosaur (new plastic one) with the top half of the vermin lord model (again, new plastic) and a load of sculpted armour.
Pricey, but looks damn imposing!