Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A bit of background first. I found an awesome new store to play at. I came up and brought a bunch of stuff. i am normally a Mercs player but I happened to have the Cygnar battle box in my bag (don't ask me why I grabbed them but I did).

Next thing I knew I had signed up for a Journeyman league using Cygnar of all things....

Well here is my dilemma, Sunday moves up to 15 points. I don't want to be "that guy" and play Stomp the Newbs but at 4 points there are only so many options worth taking.

So should I add the B13 and Reinholt? Or intro them to Sylis and Gorman? Or do something silly like a Junior and a Tinker?

To be fair, they'll play the B13 eventually, they're a cool looking, cool playing unit who happen to also be awesome. I reckon go for it, if you like the models/background/rules and think its a unit that's worth the money, then just get them

Or you could run Squire and Arlan instead of the usual B13th

motyak wrote:To be fair, they'll play the B13 eventually, they're a cool looking, cool playing unit who happen to also be awesome. I reckon go for it, if you like the models/background/rules and think its a unit that's worth the money, then just get them

Do to a person not paying for their commission I already own them. I also have Junior, ATGM and I think storm blades.

I just don't want to scare new players away. Out of the 12 people in the league only two of us are not new to the game. But I think you're right they will see them eventually.

gobbo76 wrote:Or you could run Squire and Arlan instead of the usual B13th

Not a bad idea either, Just ordered both so hopefully they will be here on Friday.

I think it will also be a good thing for some of the new guys, and a not so good thing for the others. The 3 man character units in a lot of the armies are amazing (Withershadow, Great Bears, etc), but new players may initially be scared off by the points/model cost that other units don't have. Seeing a 3 man 'elite' unit in play could be good for them, help motivate them to look into their own units and have a blast.

But the ones who have dodgier 3 man units, well they may be inspired to a bad decision, but they'll hopefully realise that through discussions with other league members etc. And if they still like the look of the units then they should pick them up, but if they expect them to be the Black 13th wearing troll colours then maybe not

 motyak wrote:
I think it will also be a good thing for some of the new guys, and a not so good thing for the others. The 3 man character units in a lot of the armies are amazing (Withershadow, Great Bears, etc), but new players may initially be scared off by the points/model cost that other units don't have. Seeing a 3 man 'elite' unit in play could be good for them, help motivate them to look into their own units and have a blast.

But the ones who have dodgier 3 man units, well they may be inspired to a bad decision, but they'll hopefully realise that through discussions with other league members etc. And if they still like the look of the units then they should pick them up, but if they expect them to be the Black 13th wearing troll colours then maybe not

Good points all.

I spoke with the store owner. Just to get a feel as he knows the folks much better than I do (well obviously). He thought it would be fine to bring the B13.

I think I'll pack Gorman and Wishnaler and offer to replay anyone who complains

Do the mercs give you paint credit?

 malfred wrote:
Do the mercs give you paint credit?

Under the leagu rule no, but everything I have is already painted (minus junior that I just finished) and a few models I ordered. I don't really plan on buying much more Cygnar as I can fill most roles better with Mercs anyway.

That and it's gonna be fun when I drop Gastone and Galleon down in a few weeks.

I think it's worth throwing the B13 in, with the caveat you explain what they are and what they do.

As mentioned, it'll be good for people to see an elite unit and how to use the crap tons of special rules they have. And if they kill them, they'll feel that much better.

B13 is the traditional bump from battlebox to 15 points.

 novaspike wrote:
I think it's worth throwing the B13 in, with the caveat you explain what they are and what they do.

As mentioned, it'll be good for people to see an elite unit and how to use the crap tons of special rules they have. And if they kill them, they'll feel that much better.

I have to agree, explain to them what each does, and make sure they are distinguishable. Don't give them a "GOTCHA!" moment where they don't have a clue what will be happening. I personally also let them know you are experienced at the game and if they have questions, ask.

Just take it easy on the new players. No gotcha moments, let them take back moves, give them advice during the game, and maybe throw a game.
We had one experienced player in our journeyman league that caused 5 new players to quit. He ran the most competitive models and just crushed the new players showing no mercy. He wanted to win the journeyman league so bad he did not care. People complained to the shop owners about him and like I said ended up quitting. The player,that the new players complained about ended up moving for a job about 2/3 through the league but the damage was done. I have not seen the new players at the shop on warmachine night which is a shame. That's 5 less people I could be playing against or could be making money for the store.

 Chute82 wrote:
Just take it easy on the new players. No gotcha moments, let them take back moves, give them advice during the game, and maybe throw a game.
We had one experienced player in our journeyman league that caused 5 new players to quit. He ran the most competitive models and just crushed the new players showing no mercy. He wanted to win the journeyman league so bad he did not care. People complained to the shop owners about him and like I said ended up quitting. The player,that the new players complained about ended up moving for a job about 2/3 through the league but the damage was done. I have not seen the new players at the shop on warmachine night which is a shame. That's 5 less people I could be playing against or could be making money for the store.

That's the plan. I definitely do not want to be "that guy" I sure as heck don't want to run people off. Unless its a Cryx player.... then all bets are off.

 darefsky (Flight Medic Paints) wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Just take it easy on the new players. No gotcha moments, let them take back moves, give them advice during the game, and maybe throw a game.
We had one experienced player in our journeyman league that caused 5 new players to quit. He ran the most competitive models and just crushed the new players showing no mercy. He wanted to win the journeyman league so bad he did not care. People complained to the shop owners about him and like I said ended up quitting. The player,that the new players complained about ended up moving for a job about 2/3 through the league but the damage was done. I have not seen the new players at the shop on warmachine night which is a shame. That's 5 less people I could be playing against or could be making money for the store.

That's the plan. I definitely do not want to be "that guy" I sure as heck don't want to run people off. Unless its a Cryx player.... then all bets are off.

Yeah no mercy on the cryx... Lol.

Warmachine is already pretty unforgiving to newbies that using a power choice isn't going to scare them away any more than losing due to inexperience is.

New players are going to lose due to positioning mistakes and distance miscalculations before they lose due to the fact you brought the B13 instead of a Squire/Arlan.

On top of that, holding back isn't really doing them any favors. They're going to meet the tough stuff eventually. Better to introduce them early than prolong the agony.

I'm still pretty newish my self and I honestly find I learn more from getting my face smashed in and then talking with my opponent about how to improve or things I was needing to improve on.

Grey Templar wrote:Warmachine is already pretty unforgiving to newbies that using a power choice isn't going to scare them away any more than losing due to inexperience is.

New players are going to lose due to positioning mistakes and distance miscalculations before they lose due to the fact you brought the B13 instead of a Squire/Arlan.

On top of that, holding back isn't really doing them any favors. They're going to meet the tough stuff eventually. Better to introduce them early than prolong the agony.

Yes and no. I think that making sure they have a good understanding of the basic rules is more important in there first few games, That and letting them discover for themselves some of the craziness that a battle box can do. I still remember with fondness when I figured out the Khador drop and pop with Scorchia and the Destroyer.

Florintine Mallorean wrote:I'm still pretty newish my self and I honestly find I learn more from getting my face smashed in and then talking with my opponent about how to improve or things I was needing to improve on.

If your opponent is willing to reset the game and show you how to avoid the mistakes you made I think that's great. What do you really learn if you lose top of 2 to the Molik Karn missile or Raven's Snipe-Feat-Go?


Or any other number of things as I sit here and think about my Lilith 2 list...

Dying to stuff like the Molik missile helps to understand how important good positioning, threat ranges, and the power of stuff such as side step. It helps prepare you for the next time you have to face it. I've noticed most people only fall to the gotcha moments a couple times then it becomes super rare because they learn from their mistakes and are better prepared the next time.

Just look at the mage hunter assassin. After it one shots your caster for tons of damage you surely won't let it have a chance to ever do that again.

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
I'm still pretty newish my self and I honestly find I learn more from getting my face smashed in and then talking with my opponent about how to improve or things I was needing to improve on.

Feedback is going to help you improve your game more then just getting your face smashed. You should should talk to your opponent after the game on things you should do better. Walking away from the table scratching your head asking yourself " what just happened" is not going to help yourself improve your game. Iam constantly asking for feedback from my opponent win or lose after the game and has helped me improve my game big time. It only takes five minutes to get feedback from your opponent while your putting your models away or preparing for your next game. If you keep making the same mistake over and over again but have no clue why you keep losing games your never going to get better.

 Chute82 wrote:

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
I'm still pretty newish my self and I honestly find I learn more from getting my face smashed in and then talking with my opponent about how to improve or things I was needing to improve on.

Feedback is going to help you improve your game more then just getting your face smashed. You should should talk to your opponent after the game on things you should do better. Walking away from the table scratching your head asking yourself " what just happened" is not going to help yourself improve your game. Iam constantly asking for feedback from my opponent win or lose after the game and has helped me improve my game big time. It only takes five minutes to get feedback from your opponent while your putting your models away or preparing for your next game. If you keep making the same mistake over and over again but have no clue why you keep losing games your never going to get better.

That and also explaining to your opponent what is about to happen. Show them how they could have stopped it in the first place and see if they understand what is happening. It will make you a much better opponent but also foster a much better meta where players will generally get better and better.

I think most good WM/H players, at least in my meta, will help go over inch by inch any win they get. Hell even the average players like me do!

 darefsky (Flight Medic Paints) wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
I'm still pretty newish my self and I honestly find I learn more from getting my face smashed in and then talking with my opponent about how to improve or things I was needing to improve on.

Feedback is going to help you improve your game more then just getting your face smashed. You should should talk to your opponent after the game on things you should do better. Walking away from the table scratching your head asking yourself " what just happened" is not going to help yourself improve your game. Iam constantly asking for feedback from my opponent win or lose after the game and has helped me improve my game big time. It only takes five minutes to get feedback from your opponent while your putting your models away or preparing for your next game. If you keep making the same mistake over and over again but have no clue why you keep losing games your never going to get better.

That and also explaining to your opponent what is about to happen. Show them how they could have stopped it in the first place and see if they understand what is happening. It will make you a much better opponent but also foster a much better meta where players will generally get better and better.

I actually like to go about half a step further. I had a recent game where my opponent went to move his warcaster. I stopped him & said "Now remember, my ferox can moce 8 THEN leap 5" and have reach" He took a second to think about it, but then realized that I would have jumped over his man-o-war shield wall & killed his caster. I'll remind them of what may cause a particular danger, but leave it up to them to figure out how to counter it. I find this works better than explaining it after the fact. After they see "problem, Solution" before they see "problem" and must devise their own solution. If it doesn't work so be it, I can always go back. If it does work I can show them what my move would have been. The point is it gets them THINKING instead of just passively learning. I find it works much better but ymmv.

Same thing happened with a bronze back counter-charge. My opponent was looking to charge my gladiator & take the bait. i could have punished him, but it was far more effective to interrupt him & say "Hey man, you do that & this here bronzeback is going to smash your teeth in. Do you want to try something else?" he is free to do whatever he wants but he ended up retreating (also wrong move) and on my turn I showed him how he could have charged my gladiator AND avoided the bronzeback counter (intentional poor positioning on my end). So not only did he learn about countercharge & the threat it causes but he had to devise a way out (sometimes a tactical advance to the rear is the best option) and then learned a way he didn't see.

I find in teaching my favorite strategy when an opponent makes what I believe is a dumb play is to ask 3 questions:

1.) Why are you doing that? (Maybe they see something you don't and they get an ego boost & you learn something)

2.) What happens next turn? (Make them think about the consequences & risk-reward)

3.) Do you want to try something else instead? (Again give them the CHOICE)

Remember when someone loses they learn generally one thing, how to avoid that loss. When you stop, explain why/how this is bad for them & let them try to devise another solution they learn MUCH more. A win is nice, A win feels good, new players should understand they WILL lose to better / more experienced players. However when teaching new players your goal is NOT to win. Your goal is to TEACH as MUCH as possible.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 darefsky (Flight Medic Paints) wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
I'm still pretty newish my self and I honestly find I learn more from getting my face smashed in and then talking with my opponent about how to improve or things I was needing to improve on.

Feedback is going to help you improve your game more then just getting your face smashed. You should should talk to your opponent after the game on things you should do better. Walking away from the table scratching your head asking yourself " what just happened" is not going to help yourself improve your game. Iam constantly asking for feedback from my opponent win or lose after the game and has helped me improve my game big time. It only takes five minutes to get feedback from your opponent while your putting your models away or preparing for your next game. If you keep making the same mistake over and over again but have no clue why you keep losing games your never going to get better.

That and also explaining to your opponent what is about to happen. Show them how they could have stopped it in the first place and see if they understand what is happening. It will make you a much better opponent but also foster a much better meta where players will generally get better and better.

I actually like to go about half a step further. I had a recent game where my opponent went to move his warcaster. I stopped him & said "Now remember, my ferox can moce 8 THEN leap 5" and have reach" He took a second to think about it, but then realized that I would have jumped over his man-o-war shield wall & killed his caster. I'll remind them of what may cause a particular danger, but leave it up to them to figure out how to counter it. I find this works better than explaining it after the fact. After they see "problem, Solution" before they see "problem" and must devise their own solution. If it doesn't work so be it, I can always go back. If it does work I can show them what my move would have been. The point is it gets them THINKING instead of just passively learning. I find it works much better but ymmv.

Same thing happened with a bronze back counter-charge. My opponent was looking to charge my gladiator & take the bait. i could have punished him, but it was far more effective to interrupt him & say "Hey man, you do that & this here bronzeback is going to smash your teeth in. Do you want to try something else?" he is free to do whatever he wants but he ended up retreating (also wrong move) and on my turn I showed him how he could have charged my gladiator AND avoided the bronzeback counter (intentional poor positioning on my end). So not only did he learn about countercharge & the threat it causes but he had to devise a way out (sometimes a tactical advance to the rear is the best option) and then learned a way he didn't see.

I find in teaching my favorite strategy when an opponent makes what I believe is a dumb play is to ask 3 questions:

1.) Why are you doing that? (Maybe they see something you don't and they get an ego boost & you learn something)

2.) What happens next turn? (Make them think about the consequences & risk-reward)

3.) Do you want to try something else instead? (Again give them the CHOICE)

Remember when someone loses they learn generally one thing, how to avoid that loss. When you stop, explain why/how this is bad for them & let them try to devise another solution they learn MUCH more. A win is nice, A win feels good, new players should understand they WILL lose to better / more experienced players. However when teaching new players your goal is NOT to win. Your goal is to TEACH as MUCH as possible.

Dude, That is about the most well stated and really awesome way to look at helping and teaching new players. I am so gonna do this from now on.

Also I had a moment of evil thoughts and came up with this for the 25pt week when we switch casters. (Not that I would play it but Muhahahaha)

Captain Victoria Haley (*5pts)
* Lancer (6pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Gastone Crosse (3pts)
* Galleon (18pts)
Goblin Tinker (1pts)

Quick update.

I brought the B13. It went just fine.

@Shas'O DorianMade, I used your advice and worked with the new players explaining things and giving them choices. Even got ones dudes girlfriend into the game and she bought the Cryx battle box.

 darefsky (Flight Medic Paints) wrote:
Quick update.

I brought the B13. It went just fine.

@Shas'O DorianMade, I used your advice and worked with the new players explaining things and giving them choices. Even got ones dudes girlfriend into the game and she bought the Cryx battle box.

Nice job on growing the community

 darefsky (Flight Medic Paints) wrote:
Quick update.

I brought the B13. It went just fine.

@Shas'O DorianMade, I used your advice and worked with the new players explaining things and giving them choices. Even got ones dudes girlfriend into the game and she bought the Cryx battle box.

Glad to hear it! Remember new players aren't fresh meat for the grinder, they're an investment in your community. Put in the work now to teach them to be better & you will have quality opponents later.

So another Cryx player? Thanks.

 motyak wrote:
So another Cryx player? Thanks.

New Cryx players are cute like little baby pit-bulls. Just waiting to grow up and maul a little helpless kid in your neighborhood.....

 darefsky (Flight Medic Paints) wrote:

 motyak wrote:
So another Cryx player? Thanks.

New Cryx players are cute like little baby pit-bulls. Just waiting to grow up and maul a little helpless kid in your neighborhood.....

Crippling Grasp does that? Wow, that's amazing, if only it stacked with her feat. Wait what, it does? Wow I picked a good faction didn't I?