Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What order would you place the armies in, with the most powerful at the top?

Eldar
Necrons
Tau
Imperial Guard
Space Marines
Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Orks

shyzo wrote:
Eldar
Necrons
Tau
Imperial Guard
Space Marines
Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Orks

CSM are way too high on that list, and where are daemons?
Also, I can only assume you play DE to place them so low.

Eldar, Tau, Daemons, Necrons, Space Marines.

Eldar...

those other armies that aren't eldar

Spaces represent major differences in power - power "jumps"

Eldar
Necrons

Tau
Daemons
Space Marines
Blood Angels
Orks

Imperial Guard
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Tyranids


Broadly speaking, Eldar and Necrons are seperate due to everything they can do being very, very powerful, beyond other armies. The middle category usually has several good builds, but also plenty of bad units and weaknesses. Last category are mostly garbage save for very specific units - difficult to use even in friendly matches and their stronger builds have huge, easily exploited weaknesses; have valid nicknames like "Codex: Flyrant, Cultists + Heldrake or Dakkabanner."

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Spaces represent major differences in power - power "jumps"

Eldar
Necrons

Tau
Daemons
Space Marines
Blood Angels
Orks

Imperial Guard
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Tyranids


Broadly speaking, Eldar and Necrons are seperate due to everything they can do being very, very powerful, beyond other armies. The middle category usually has several good builds, but also plenty of bad units and weaknesses. Last category are mostly garbage save for very specific units - difficult to use even in friendly matches and their stronger builds have huge, easily exploited weaknesses; have valid nicknames like "Codex: Flyrant, Cultists + Heldrake or Dakkabanner."

I used to play Orks a lot and let me tell you that they should be all the way at the very bottom of the list. About DE, it's hard to tell whether they are strong or not... They are very rewarding when played right and die horribly when any mistakes are made.

I'll revise my list:

1. Strong.
-Eldar
-Necrons
-Tau

2. Average.
-Daemons
-SM
-IG
-Tyranids
-CSM

3. Weak.
-Orks.

4. Not fitting into any category.
-Dark Eldar.

P. S. Why did you rate CSM, Tyranids and IG so low?

shyzo wrote:

P. S. Why did you rate CSM, Tyranids and IG so low?

CSM are horribly overpriced. If you compare them to their obvious counter point, the Space Marines, they have a more limited arsenal to use and each model pays more for the same or worse gear.
They have viable units in Nurgle, but a whole slew of wildly overpriced units like the Thousand Sons.

It is not right to just wright SM when you write Eldars and Dark Eldars separatly. Power levels of Space Marines, Space Wolfs, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are wastly different.

From a competitive standpoint, and only relying on your own codex/supplements/formations. Also avoiding forces designed to be allies like inquisition, harlies, storm troopers etc.

I put them in tiers because several books are close enough that it's hard to determine which is better.


Mythical tier:
7e eldar

Tourney god kings tier:
6e Eldar and necrons

Power tier:
Imperial knights
Tau
Daemons
Core marines
Grey knights
Tyranids
Skitarii
Dark eldar

"Hard mode" tier:
Space wolves
Orks
Blood Angels
Sisters
Khorne daemonkin

"Lunatic mode" tier:
Chaos space marines
Astra Militarum
Dark angels


As a general rule for these tiers, a same tier vs same tier matchup is a coin flip before adding in player skill. A large skill difference can easily bring the matchup to 90:10 advantage or even higher.

Playing against a list in the tier above you has you down at about a 25/75 disadvantage before skill modifies it. High skill from the lower tier vs low skill from the army a tier above it can bring you back to as high as a 60/40 advantage. Note that if the skill disparity is reversed, it becomes an easy 95:5 advantage for the higher army.

A two tier jump is almost insurmountable. With even skill, you're basically looking at a 10/90 disadvantage on even skill levels, usually relying on surviving to game turn 5, going second, tossing obsec guys on objectives, and praying for a game end roll to save you.
If the skill disparity is large and in the low tier's favor, you could bring that up to about a 30:70 disadvantage, still winning 1/3 games. If you are getting outskilled, you need a miracle.

If you are facing a list 3 tiers above you, you flat out need miracles to happen, unless you have been playing for a decade and your opponent is on like, his 5th game ever, in which case you can get back to 20:80 or so.

Also, in addition to the skill variable, there's a chance that your list might be super-effective against theirs. Lots of melta against vehicles, or lots of anti infantry vs infantry. Happening to have a counter-list to their list type will usually double your chances.

In friendly environments, the bar is a lot lower:

God tier:
Imperial knights
Eldar (both editions)
Necrons
Tau

Power tier:
Almost everyone else

Less power tier:
Chaos space marines
Dark Angels

The difference between tiers is much less pronounced on this one. You could play funsies dark angels and beat funsies eldar 1/3 of the time on equal skill levels. The main issue is "how much of the power stuff can he take before he leaves the for funsies zone?"

Higher tier:
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines
Grey Knights
Daemons

Lower tier:
Dark Angels

Everything else is balanced with each other; those higher tier armies need to be toned down and Dark Angels need a buff.

i really dont get why people say GK are so high, without allies they are one trick ponies relying on dreadknights which are good but fairly easily countered by any true top or mid tier army.

IMO

Necrons
Eldar

Space marines
SW
BA
GK
Tau

Nids
Daemons
Guard

Orks
Chaos marines
Dark angels
Dark eldar

I see the bottom four a long way off the others, two mid tiers i see as changeable depending on the player but even an average player with Cron harvest or eldar can do incredibly well and win most games.

is a new Dark Angels codex expected this year?

It's funny how sisters didn't even make it onto anybody's list except for niv-mizzet's XD

And probably not because they're considered weak, but because GW has ignored them into obscurity...sad times

Tier 1: (Battle of the Gods)
Eldar
Necrons

Tier 2: (So You Think You Can Fight?)
Space Marines
Grey Knights
Tau
Astra Militarum
Daemons
Space Wolves
Blood Angels

Tier 3: (Isn't That Cute?)
Tyranids (Non-flyrants)
Orks
Dark Eldar
Dark Angels
Chaos Space Marines

 Purifier wrote:

shyzo wrote:

P. S. Why did you rate CSM, Tyranids and IG so low?

CSM are horribly overpriced. If you compare them to their obvious counter point, the Space Marines, they have a more limited arsenal to use and each model pays more for the same or worse gear.
They have viable units in Nurgle, but a whole slew of wildly overpriced units like the Thousand Sons.

CSM are good with Heldrakes (though not quite as good) and liberal use of their supplements and particular combos, but the codex as a whole as almost no options beyond that, legions of useless units, and the best armies have nary and actual CSM in sight. Part of my judgement applies to how many viable builds, not just how strong the codex can theoretically build with a specific build.

This extends to Tyranids - Flyrants are good, Mawlocs are good. Everything else is hot garbage and basically useless in anything but a friendly game versus something super-fluffy and also bad like a Space Marine battle company full of tacticals, Devs and ASMs. Their one combo is good, though still very vulnerable to certain units, and everything else is horrific.

IG are similar to the other two, but not as extreme, hence I rated them higher. Guard are super reliant on Leman Russes to compete with most codexes - their standard infantry are bad even en-masse as counters are super-common, lots of units are useless - ratlings post sniper nerf, Ogryn/Bullgryn, Hellhound variants, Sentinels, Commissars, etc. Iconic units are completely obsolete due to a power curve which has left them in the dust, and only cheap but killy Russes keep them in the game, but provided you have Pask in something good and enough tank-based firepower and veterans in Chimeras you can basically screw around with what points you have left over, but nothing in the book is particularly good, and every other army can do the IG's kitsch better - only AV14 spam sets them apart.

While I'm more than willing to admit there's a huge power boost to the new Eldar, and the latest 'nid dex was a nerfbat to the gonads, I think these lists are pretty good evidence that most people interpret how easy an army is to master as being the same as how powerful it is.

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I'm more than willing to admit there's a huge power boost to the new Eldar, and the latest 'nid dex was a nerfbat to the gonads, I think these lists are pretty good evidence that most people interpret how easy an army is to master as being the same as how powerful it is.

Please show me all the complicated play in DA and CSM that I have missed despite my years of playing.
Is it Warp Talons? I recently had someone tell me Warp talons are the secret to beating eldar jet bikes

All that matters is that my beloved Thousand Sons, the psyker-marines of Chaos who have the powers of the Chaos Gods at their fingertips... get slapped around by the pointy-eared space pansies who have no business with such evil powers.


Tzeentch, hear my whine and stick an FAQ on their accursed, rose-petal scented book that states any roll of a double causes the elf to mutate into a spawn

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I'm more than willing to admit there's a huge power boost to the new Eldar, and the latest 'nid dex was a nerfbat to the gonads, I think these lists are pretty good evidence that most people interpret how easy an army is to master as being the same as how powerful it is.

Really? I think it shows how many people never think about allies when doing these lists (probably because it's too complicated).

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I'm more than willing to admit there's a huge power boost to the new Eldar, and the latest 'nid dex was a nerfbat to the gonads, I think these lists are pretty good evidence that most people interpret how easy an army is to master as being the same as how powerful it is.

Really? I think it shows how many people never think about allies when doing these lists (probably because it's too complicated).

Lol, that too.

Seriously, though. I don't have any problems against any army, as Dark Eldar, even though many of these lists place them in the bottom most tier. (A few folks even placed them below Tyranids, fer cryin' out loud!)

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I'm more than willing to admit there's a huge power boost to the new Eldar, and the latest 'nid dex was a nerfbat to the gonads, I think these lists are pretty good evidence that most people interpret how easy an army is to master as being the same as how powerful it is.

Really? I think it shows how many people never think about allies when doing these lists (probably because it's too complicated).

"This codex is underwhelming" "no it's not, all you have to do is use another one instead and it's great!"

It's not the most brilliant of arguments, you must admit. And I'm in this game for the aesthetics. I play the army I like and I think the allies matrix was bad for the game from the get-go. Also, the fact that they can ally, and the fact that this can make certain units stronger (purifiers in drop pods come to mind) does not mean that you can't still compare them to each other. There is no ally that can make Thousand Sons worth their points.

God tier:

Eldar, Necrons.

Noble Tier:

Tau, SPEHSS MUHREENS (assorted), Daemons

Commoner tier:

Guard, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, most forgeworld army lists.

Brettonian Peasant tier:

Sisters of Battle, Dark Angels, Tyranids, Orks.

When allies are figured in, the Tyranids race all the way down to rock bottom and find something lower than Brettonian peasant tier.

Brettonian peasant slave to an Orc entrusted with wiping his arse after he takes a poo tier.

Meanwhile the Eldar ascend to supergod and the Imperium ascends to god tier.

 Wulfmar wrote:
All that matters is that my beloved Thousand Sons, the psyker-marines of Chaos who have the powers of the Chaos Gods at their fingertips... get slapped around by the pointy-eared space pansies who have no business with such evil powers.


Tzeentch, hear my whine and stick an FAQ on their accursed, rose-petal scented book that states any roll of a double causes the elf to mutate into a spawn

Tzeentch cannot into not-crap psychic powers any better than poland can into space. :(

For my money, it seems to make more sense to consider armies in groups, based on alliance. So, with that in mind:

Eldar armies (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Iyanden, Corsairs, Harlequins, Covens)

Necrons

Tau forces (Tau, Farsight Enclaves, and Kroot)

Armies of the Imperium (Space Marines, Grey Knights, Skitaari, Angels both Dark and Blood, Space Wolves, Astra Militarum, Knights, Militarum Tempestus, Raukaan, Imperial Fists, Heroes of Fenris, Inquisition, and Sisters of Battle)

Orks

Armies of Chaos (Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Black Legion, Khorne)

Tyranids

But I think a skilled player can compete 3-5 tiers above themselves reliably, if they know their army (and their opponent's!) well enough.

 Purifier wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I'm more than willing to admit there's a huge power boost to the new Eldar, and the latest 'nid dex was a nerfbat to the gonads, I think these lists are pretty good evidence that most people interpret how easy an army is to master as being the same as how powerful it is.

Really? I think it shows how many people never think about allies when doing these lists (probably because it's too complicated).

"This codex is underwhelming" "no it's not, all you have to do is use another one instead and it's great!"

It's not the most brilliant of arguments, you must admit. And I'm in this game for the aesthetics. I play the army I like and I think the allies matrix was bad for the game from the get-go. Also, the fact that they can ally, and the fact that this can make certain units stronger (purifiers in drop pods come to mind) does not mean that you can't still compare them to each other. There is no ally that can make Thousand Sons worth their points.

Oh I agree allies are bad for the game, they force a position where you balance for allies and individual codex balance goes out of whack or you balance for codices and allies balance goes out of whack (unless you manage to make every single codex have the capacity to counter everything in every other codex in some manner, and don't have stupid gak like Battle Brothers). I'm talking about this from a general design perspective, as GW isn't the best at balance regardless.

That said allies are part of the game right now, ignoring the fact that some armies get better allies than others is like ignoring strong points of other armies that don't have a wealth of allies or the same quantity of good combos as others.

If people don't want to do it because of difficulty or inexperience with allied armies that's fine. But I would consider it an incomplete ranking without taking allies into account. If you disagree, we'll have to agree to disagree.

1. Eldar
2. Daemons
3. Imperial Knights
4. Necrons
5. Space Marines
6. Tau
severe drop off in power level
7. Grey Knights
8. Tyranids
9. Space Wolves
10. Dark Eldar
11. Blood Angels
12. imperial guard
13. Sisters of Battle
14. Orks
15. Chaos Space Marines
16. Dark Angels
17. Harlequins

No clue where skitarii fall as I've yet to face them or see them in a tournament, probably low as they have very limited options and are extremely easy to counter.

 Toofast wrote:
1. Eldar
2. Daemons
3. Imperial Knights
4. Necrons
5. Space Marines
6. Tau
severe drop off in power level
7. Grey Knights
8. Tyranids
9. Space Wolves
10. Dark Eldar
11. Blood Angels
12. imperial guard
13. Sisters of Battle
14. Orks
15. Chaos Space Marines
16. Dark Angels
17. Harlequins

No clue where skitarii fall as I've yet to face them or see them in a tournament, probably low as they have very limited options and are extremely easy to counter.

I dunno about those rankings. For example: Harlequin general power level is low, but they have certain combos in their list that can allow them to punch WAY above their weight class in ways that, say, Orks and CSM just can't.

Lol @ everyone thinking Dark Eldar is bad...

Since the new book my RTT results:

3rd
1st
2nd
2nd
3rd


Placed prize all 5 tourneys.

They're extremely good people just:

A.) don't play them

Or

B,) don't know how to play them right.

When played by a good player they're top tier.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Lol @ everyone thinking Dark Eldar is bad...

Since the new book my RTT results:

3rd
1st
2nd
2nd
3rd


Placed prize all 5 tourneys.

They're extremely good people just:

A.) don't play them

Or

B,) don't know how to play them right.

When played by a good player they're top tier.

How many players were in those RTTs? Now how many of those were top players using the latest type of cheese? If dark eldar just require a good player to win tournaments, does that mean every player who's taken DE to a GT since 7th was released were just bad players? I haven't seen them finish in the top 3 of a GT in all of 7th except as eldar allies, mostly for baron when he still existed. I tend to put more faith in results from 200-300 person tournaments attended by top players from all over the country and the world than I do in results from 16 person tournaments at your local comic book store attended mostly by people just wanting to spend a day gaming with their fun/fluffy builds.

I don't think its a matter of people playing them wrong, but I think a lot of people look at the codex and aren't sure how to go about it (and so don't start) or have a couple bad experiences and quit. Alternately, they see someone learning the army and assume all those losses mean it's bad. God knows I had a couple months when I first started where I lost almost every initial game, horribly. (Since they were small games I usually asked for a rematch, and oddly enough won almost every time.) It's a very unforgiving army that can feel underpowered when you're mastering it.

But every list that puts Tyranids ahead of Dark Eldar has me making that raised-eyebrow-lemon-mouth face of confusion.