Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So as an eldar player (I've been one for quite a while) the talk of banning the codex has come up along with banning units. I just wanted to ask the general public since I'll be playing eldar aspect list is it fair for me to say no to things like: Flyrants, grav-cents, Belakor etc. in return?
Thanks

Sure, you can say no to whatever you want. The question isn't whether you can say no, it's whether you can find an opponent willing to negotiate and compromise, which is a real challenge when it comes to pick up games.

No game is better than a bad game.

Sure. Go ahead.

The further along GW gets into the 6th-7th release cycle, the more pick up games are resembling tense diplomatic negotiations.

You can all you want! Walk in and demand that you will not face those units! And then watch the players that slightly considered playing you, decide to not. Fact is, and it's sad but true, everyone knows the eldar codex is ridiculously good. There is no justifying why it's good... It just is a poster boy lover boy to gw so they drool over making its units overly viable. People obviously take the anger out on eldar and its players by taking away the units that were overly powered up, in an attempt to help them stand a better chance. You're arguement would go like this... They want your strongest units not used... Leaving their strongest units on even ground with your average units.. you then say you don't want them to use their strongest units.. Leaving them with craps to fight your good units..

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
You can all you want! Walk in and demand that you will not face those units! And then watch the players that slightly considered playing you, decide to not. Fact is, and it's sad but true, everyone knows the eldar codex is ridiculously good. There is no justifying why it's good... It just is a poster boy lover boy to gw so they drool over making its units overly viable. People obviously take the anger out on eldar and its players by taking away the units that were overly powered up, in an attempt to help them stand a better chance. You're arguement would go like this... They want your strongest units not used... Leaving their strongest units on even ground with your average units.. you then say you don't want them to use their strongest units.. Leaving them with craps to fight your good units..

I'm not saying that's what I'm going to do, in fact it would've been better if explained it more. I'm saying that games tend to be more fun when there isn't destroyer weapons, invisibility(invinciblity), 2++ re-rollable saves and 5 flying monstrous creatures on the board. So when an opponent says no to those units (which I agree with) he shouldn't be taking his tournamament crusher list either.

Ah I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought from your original post you were doing so in retaliation. How you rephrased it makes sense.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
You can all you want! Walk in and demand that you will not face those units! And then watch the players that slightly considered playing you, decide to not. Fact is, and it's sad but true, everyone knows the eldar codex is ridiculously good. There is no justifying why it's good... It just is a poster boy lover boy to gw so they drool over making its units overly viable. People obviously take the anger out on eldar and its players by taking away the units that were overly powered up, in an attempt to help them stand a better chance. You're arguement would go like this... They want your strongest units not used... Leaving their strongest units on even ground with your average units.. you then say you don't want them to use their strongest units.. Leaving them with craps to fight your good units..

I'm not saying that's what I'm going to do, in fact it would've been better if explained it more. I'm saying that games tend to be more fun when there isn't destroyer weapons, invisibility(invinciblity), 2++ re-rollable saves and 5 flying monstrous creatures on the board. So when an opponent says no to those units (which I agree with) he shouldn't be taking his tournamament crusher list either.

Find an opponent with BA. Problem solved.

Martel732 wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
You can all you want! Walk in and demand that you will not face those units! And then watch the players that slightly considered playing you, decide to not. Fact is, and it's sad but true, everyone knows the eldar codex is ridiculously good. There is no justifying why it's good... It just is a poster boy lover boy to gw so they drool over making its units overly viable. People obviously take the anger out on eldar and its players by taking away the units that were overly powered up, in an attempt to help them stand a better chance. You're arguement would go like this... They want your strongest units not used... Leaving their strongest units on even ground with your average units.. you then say you don't want them to use their strongest units.. Leaving them with craps to fight your good units..

I'm not saying that's what I'm going to do, in fact it would've been better if explained it more. I'm saying that games tend to be more fun when there isn't destroyer weapons, invisibility(invinciblity), 2++ re-rollable saves and 5 flying monstrous creatures on the board. So when an opponent says no to those units (which I agree with) he shouldn't be taking his tournamament crusher list either.

Find an opponent with BA. Problem solved.

I haven't played against BA in ages, I'd like to play against them but unfortunately we only have one player and he only plays at the GW store.
BTW you could still ally in a invisible centstar, but it wouldn't be BA then would it eh?

Yeah, mono-BA and mono-DA are both pretty much abuse-proof.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, mono-BA and mono-DA are both pretty much abuse-proof.

Player skill doesn't enter the equation? I think you're selling yourself short man. You're in a hyper competitive meta, you'd crush a newbie with a pure BA army.

The player is kind of an important factor to consider. You might crush a fluffy 7th Eldar army too even...

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, mono-BA and mono-DA are both pretty much abuse-proof.

Player skill doesn't enter the equation? I think you're selling yourself short man. You're in a hyper competitive meta, you'd crush a newbie with a pure BA army.

The player is kind of an important factor to consider. You might crush a fluffy 7th Eldar army too even...

That's not list abuse. That's good play. Mono-BA have no mathematical exploits available to them via undercosted units like scatbikes or Riptides.

Also, I'd pick almost any kind of Eldar list over mono-BA. They are that good, and BA are that anemic.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
So as an eldar player (I've been one for quite a while) the talk of banning the codex has come up along with banning units. I just wanted to ask the general public since I'll be playing eldar aspect list is it fair for me to say no to things like: Flyrants, grav-cents, Belakor etc. in return?
Thanks

Perfectly fair, since a lot of us will just be straight up refusing to play eldar entirely. Go ahead and refuse the power units you don't like that actually can give eldar trouble. Mabye you can still find a baby seal out there willing to be clubbed...once or twice anyway.

 Orock wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
So as an eldar player (I've been one for quite a while) the talk of banning the codex has come up along with banning units. I just wanted to ask the general public since I'll be playing eldar aspect list is it fair for me to say no to things like: Flyrants, grav-cents, Belakor etc. in return?
Thanks

Perfectly fair, since a lot of us will just be straight up refusing to play eldar entirely. Go ahead and refuse the power units you don't like that actually can give eldar trouble. Mabye you can still find a baby seal out there willing to be clubbed...once or twice anyway.

Way to not read the rest of the read dude

Yay, another Eldar thread. We really needed one.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
No game is better than a bad game.

That's what 40k has devolved into, apparently; bunch of people sitting around not playing the game and either crying or screaming at each other, pointing fingers and laying blame for things that are ultimately GW's fault, all the while continuing to buy massive amounts of models from GW inexplicably.

This is the "hobby" now, there's no game left. Even if you were willing to play you would never find anyone else that would want to.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
There is no justifying why it's good... It just is a poster boy lover boy to gw so they drool over making its units overly viable. .

GW's poster boys wear power armor, make no mistake about that. Two Eldar books don't suddenly erase nearly two decades worth of favoritism.

 Orock wrote:
Perfectly fair, since a lot of us will just be straight up refusing to play eldar entirely.

And you should give yourself a big, fat pat on the back, for doing your part and assisting GW in making sure that 40k as a tabletop game dies a slow, horrible death. Good job.

Because as we all know it's the Eldar player's fault, and they should all be shunned and ridiculed for their crime of picking an army with really cool models. That'll fething teach them to play something other than Spehss Mahreens, and it'll totally show GW that the fanbase won't put up with their bullgak...you know...just as soon as they start giving a feth what the fans think.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yay, another Eldar thread. We really needed one.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
No game is better than a bad game.

That's what 40k has devolved into, apparently; bunch of people sitting around not playing the game and either crying or screaming at each other, pointing fingers and laying blame for things that are ultimately GW's fault, all the while continuing to buy massive amounts of models from GW inexplicably.

This is the "hobby" now, there's no game left. Even if you were willing to play you would never find anyone else that would want to.

I learned that hard lesson from RPGs actually. It simply isn't worth my time to play a game I know will not be fun. Whether that is based on the people, rules, or situation. No one is obligated to take one for the team.

Beside haven't you heard that "the Hobby" is actually buying stuff from GW.

GW's poster boys wear power armor, make no mistake about that. Two Eldar books don't suddenly erase nearly two decades worth of favoritism.

They get all the models, but Eldar certainly haven't gotten just two OP books, considering one should count 2nd (Exarch full gear could break an army, the closest cheese was space wolf terminator assault/cyclone), 3rd (starcannons and Altoic craftworld), 4th (Falconspam), 6th (Serpentspam!), and now 7th (Scatbikes, wraithknights).

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, mono-BA and mono-DA are both pretty much abuse-proof.

Player skill doesn't enter the equation? I think you're selling yourself short man. You're in a hyper competitive meta, you'd crush a newbie with a pure BA army.

The player is kind of an important factor to consider. You might crush a fluffy 7th Eldar army too even...

That's not list abuse. That's good play. Mono-BA have no mathematical exploits available to them via undercosted units like scatbikes or Riptides.

Also, I'd pick almost any kind of Eldar list over mono-BA. They are that good, and BA are that anemic.

Except pods full of whatever special weapons you want for a criminally low price. And one of the top 5 assault units in the game. And universally fast vehicles. And several of the best combat characters in the game. And one of the best support HQs.

BA are a balanced book, and really for the most part the Eldar book is, too. It ust so happens that no thought went into the creation of the new jetbikes, wraith guard or wraith knights.

Thought went into their creation. The problem is, that thought was "oh man, the financial report isn't looking too good this year. How do we make sure we sell as many eldar codexes, jetseers, jetbikes and wraith units as possible?" rather than "how do we make these fluffy and powerful but still balanced?"

 th3maninblak wrote:


BA are a balanced book, and really for the most part the Eldar book is, too. It ust so happens that no thought went into the creation of the new jetbikes, wraith guard or wraith knights.

If we're also forgeting things like BS5 "better than AP1" Fire Dragons, and other such massive across the board monster buffs that late 6E/early 7E armies didn't get in on over the course of the last 12 months

BA, like many other books up until the Necron book (GK, IG, DA, etc) got a laundry list of option removals and nerfs (some justified to be fair) with very little if any attention paid to underperforming units/internal balance.. Eldar simply had nearly every single unit (bar the Wave Serpent) made better or got formations to make them better. (EDIT: though, that said, BA's do have a one or two absolutely absurd formations...have I mentioned I just really dislike formations?)

 Toofast wrote:
Thought went into their creation. The problem is, that thought was "oh man, the financial report isn't looking too good this year. How do we make sure we sell as many eldar codexes, jetseers, jetbikes and wraith units as possible?" rather than "how do we make these fluffy and powerful but still balanced?"

And that's the sad part, from what I've seen and heard it's an awesome book apart from the and jetbikes. If it wasn't for that this would've been in-line with the balance of some of the other current books. It's a shame really

Yeah, absolutely. As an Eldar player, if you agree to not bring Scatbikes or Strength D in your list they can agree to at the very least no invisibility or super heavies of their own.


You see a knight or invis? You get a WK. seems totally fair.

WK is a lot better then a single knight. It is probably better then two times, because of the mobility combined with D shoting weapons on it.

All armies are capable of cheese. Eldar just get it easier, within their own codex (not allies needed) and can take it further. If you want to play a fun and friendly game, you can. And it’s perfectly reasonable to ask your opponents to do the same.

The problem is getting everyone on the same page as to what level to play at. But if someone refuses to play against you using Wraiths or scatterbikes and puts down a scremerstar or adamantium lance, they’ve got more chutzpah then is healthy.

We're only just at the start of the 7th codex cycle. People need to calm down.

Look at a recent batrep on youtube - the necron player absolutely savaged the eldar player who had 2 wraithknights.

All armies are capable of cheese

Show me an IG or SoB list comperable to eldar or necrons at 1500pts.

We're only just at the start of the 7th codex cycle.

there were already 4 books before eldar cron that were ment for 7th. 5 if one counts the last codex in 6th which was clearly ment for 7th too.

Makumba wrote:

All armies are capable of cheese

Show me an IG or SoB list comperable to eldar or necrons at 1500pts.

I mentioned that Eldar can do it worse, without help. SoB or IG might need a little help to get something that would be considered cheezy, and probably can’t reach the heights of Eldar, but they can still pull some tricks. IG blob squads are a base that other things work well with, SoB priests can pull some shenanigans, and they can spam scouting melta and have a few other aces up their sleeves. Can someone who knows them better then I cobble up a list that would get past your “cheese” threshold? Possibly. Everyone has a different tolerance.

Eldar can put together a cheesy list almost accidentally. Building a fluffy list from a number of craftworlds is going to be a powerhouse on the table. I’m not going to argue it’s a weak codex, because it is still quite powerful. But you can put together friendly lists with it.

I love all the claims of mono BA being average or bad - they give exceptional options to counter eldar. I watched this very game today as it destroyed the new eldar Dex.

2 jet seers, 3x6 scatter bikes, 1x5 scatter bikes, 3 d cannons, WK, 3 scatter walkers, 3x5 swooping Hawks

Vs

Storm raven formation (3 Ravens and 3x 10 tactical marines)
2 chaplains, 2x8 vanguard in pods, 5 scouts, pod

Eldar got smashed hard.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, mono-BA and mono-DA are both pretty much abuse-proof.

Player skill doesn't enter the equation? I think you're selling yourself short man. You're in a hyper competitive meta, you'd crush a newbie with a pure BA army.

The player is kind of an important factor to consider. You might crush a fluffy 7th Eldar army too even...

That's not list abuse. That's good play. Mono-BA have no mathematical exploits available to them via undercosted units like scatbikes or Riptides.

Also, I'd pick almost any kind of Eldar list over mono-BA. They are that good, and BA are that anemic.

Except pods full of whatever special weapons you want for a criminally low price. And one of the top 5 assault units in the game. And universally fast vehicles. And several of the best combat characters in the game. And one of the best support HQs.

BA are a balanced book, and really for the most part the Eldar book is, too. It ust so happens that no thought went into the creation of the new jetbikes, wraith guard or wraith knights.

LOL, pods with special weapons. One shot wonders who then footslog and get massacred. If I had an Eldar army, I could confidently say I would never lose to mono-BA. No matter rolling, no matter anything. The internal balance of the BA book is actually pretty poor, considering how many never-takes there are in the book. I'd also like to go on record to say that there is NOTHING criminally undercosted in the BA codex. Especially compared to the real codices in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Massaen wrote:
I love all the claims of mono BA being average or bad - they give exceptional options to counter eldar. I watched this very game today as it destroyed the new eldar Dex.

2 jet seers, 3x6 scatter bikes, 1x5 scatter bikes, 3 d cannons, WK, 3 scatter walkers, 3x5 swooping Hawks

Vs

Storm raven formation (3 Ravens and 3x 10 tactical marines)
2 chaplains, 2x8 vanguard in pods, 5 scouts, pod

Eldar got smashed hard.

There's nothing exceptional in that book. I could prove it to all these posters over and over in actual games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
All armies are capable of cheese. Eldar just get it easier, within their own codex (not allies needed) and can take it further. If you want to play a fun and friendly game, you can. And it’s perfectly reasonable to ask your opponents to do the same.

The problem is getting everyone on the same page as to what level to play at. But if someone refuses to play against you using Wraiths or scatterbikes and puts down a scremerstar or adamantium lance, they’ve got more chutzpah then is healthy.

I don't see any in the BA codex. We got a bunch of trap units again, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:


BA are a balanced book, and really for the most part the Eldar book is, too. It ust so happens that no thought went into the creation of the new jetbikes, wraith guard or wraith knights.

If we're also forgeting things like BS5 "better than AP1" Fire Dragons, and other such massive across the board monster buffs that late 6E/early 7E armies didn't get in on over the course of the last 12 months

BA, like many other books up until the Necron book (GK, IG, DA, etc) got a laundry list of option removals and nerfs (some justified to be fair) with very little if any attention paid to underperforming units/internal balance.. Eldar simply had nearly every single unit (bar the Wave Serpent) made better or got formations to make them better. (EDIT: though, that said, BA's do have a one or two absolutely absurd formations...have I mentioned I just really dislike formations?)

Which are those? Because I've already beaten all the BA formations in mirror matches using the CAD. Oh noes! Don't assault me with your tac squads from overcosted flyers! OMGZ whatever will the high tier codices do? The Vanguards with power weapons are particularly amusing, because of the cursing from the opponent when I shoot them to death. It's almost like a vacation compared to fighting Wraith, who have real defenses. Giving Vanguads power weapons is cute, but futile because they are still just meqs.