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Sup folks. Recently I have been kicking the idea of picking up some crons and expanding my horizons beyond the realm of Chaos. I worked up a few lists using the decurion formations and the following is my favorite and I think the most well rounded to take on the armies I see the most of in my gaming group. (Grey Knights, Orks, Astra Militarum, Imperial Knights, Space Wolves and Space Marines in Imperial Fist and White Scar flavors are what my pals play most) Pick it apart and let me know what you think....ill be buying and building 1500 points to start and am really trying to put together an all comers kind of force to hold me over until I can expand the crons a little more.

Reclamation Legion

Overlord
Warscythe
Gauntlet of Fire
Phase Shifter
The Nightmare Shroud

Immortals x10
w/ Night Scythe

Warriors x 10
w/ Ghost Ark

Warriors x 10
w/ Ghost Ark

Tomb Blades x 5
5 x Shieldvanes
5x Nebulascope

Canoptek Harvest

Canoptek Spyder x 3
w/ 3x Twin Linked Particle Beamer

Canoptek Wraiths x 5
w/ Whip Coils

Canoptek Scarabs x 3

so..... opinions?

Running 3 spyders in the Canoptek Harvest is good, but I wouldn't give them Particle Beamers.

The toughest match-up for you will be orks so you might want to run something like flayed ones which sucker punch that match-up.

I like running less vehicles (maybe just 1 NS and no GA) and more dudes on foot in today's meta. So take Zandrekh and march up your backwall of footcrons.

Are you sure 3 spyders is allowed?

I would take the 100 pts fromthe two spyders (which you're not allowed anyway) and take some form immortals and put into a third warrior squad.


Who are you playing? Vs SM/CSM a destroyer cult is essential.

Ahhhh I see now. the Canoptek Harvest specifically says just 1 Canoptek Spyder. I was looking at the codex entry where it said that 2 more could be taken for 50 points per model. This is also why I put this up here, so folks could point out possible errors I have made with the list building. I am a chaos players that hasn't bothered with Khorne Daemonkin's Blood Host rules yet so the Decurion concept is new to me.

My group plays a lot of the following:

Grey Knights
Orks
Astra Militarum
Imperial Knights,
Space Wolves
Space Marines in Imperial Fist and White Scar flavors mostly

A Destroyer Cult is doable I think as a replacement for the Canoptek Harvest.....again though im trying to nail down a decent all comer 1500 point list to start and give me a shopping list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK so here is a revision

Reclamation Legion
Nemesor Zahndrek - Warlord

Immortals x 5
Warriors x 11
Warriors x 10
Warriors x 10

Tomb Blades x 6
6x Shieldvane
6x Nebuloscope

Destroyer Cult

Destroyer Lord
Destroyer x 3
Destroyer x 4
Destroyer x 4

Deathmarks

Deathmarks x 10

1500 Points even. No vehicles...I am really reluctant about not having vehicles of any kind but between comments here and other online reading...I am hearing that no vehicles are a boon for Necrons especially at 1500 points. Its a ton of gauss and everything is 3+ save, 4+ Reanimation protocols due to Ever-living.

Assault lists could be tough vs this though....and foot slogging anything has its own disadvantages. maybe when I move up to the 1850 to 2000 point range a ghost ark or 2 and a ctan shard would be a decent investment?

Looks good. Tbh 4 destroyers in a unit might be overkill... I'm sure you could squeeze in a ghost ark if you needed.

You should be able to get a harvest, cult and reclaimation legion. It'll be tight but there will be enough for some war gear or possibly a ghost ark.

 Lunchbox739 wrote:
I was looking at the codex entry where it said that 2 more could be taken for 50 points per model.

This is correct. You have access to the Army Entry List and you can add 2 spyders to the Canoptek Harvest. The same rules apply to the Necron codex as they apply to every other codex.

col_impact wrote:

 Lunchbox739 wrote:
I was looking at the codex entry where it said that 2 more could be taken for 50 points per model.

This is correct. You have access to the Army Entry List and you can add 2 spyders to the Canoptek Harvest. The same rules apply to the Necron codex as they apply to every other codex.

This hasn't been settled by an FAQ yet and it's misleading to tell the OP definitively that he can do this. The tournament community (just one of several factions of 40k players, not authoritative) has come to the consensus that only one spider is allowed in a Harvest. Of course, outside the formation, 3 would be allowed.

Again, it is plausible (and preferable) that GW could issue definitive errata; but that as yet has not occurred. And the entry is pretty clear That it is "1" spider.

The codex is pretty clear that it's 1 Spyder and not 1 unit of Spyders. I don't see why there's any confusion for this. Even the little fluff description for the Harvest talks about the mechanical minds being slaved to a singular Spyder.

The Harvest formation is better than the Destroyer cult in competitive terms.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Harvest formation is better than the Destroyer cult in competitive terms.

Depends who you're playing. Vs armour value 3 destroyers every time. Vs cc army the harvest is only going to help if you've got some nifty cc of your own.

Marshal_Gus wrote:
The codex is pretty clear that it's 1 Spyder and not 1 unit of Spyders. I don't see why there's any confusion for this. Even the little fluff description for the Harvest talks about the mechanical minds being slaved to a singular Spyder.

The rules for Formations deal with units and army entry lists. What makes you think that we don't follow the rules in the case of the Necron codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shrike wrote:


This hasn't been settled by an FAQ yet and it's misleading to tell the OP definitively that he can do this. The tournament community (just one of several factions of 40k players, not authoritative) has come to the consensus that only one spider is allowed in a Harvest. Of course, outside the formation, 3 would be allowed.

Again, it is plausible (and preferable) that GW could issue definitive errata; but that as yet has not occurred. And the entry is pretty clear That it is "1" spider.

The Formation rules are pretty clear that you are dealing with units and army entry lists. The army entry list allows you to add extra spyders. Show in the rules where this permission is revoked. If you cannot then 3 spyders is legal per Canoptek Harvest by the rules. Like it or not, the rules apply to the Necron codex just like they apply to every other codex.

col_impact wrote:

Marshal_Gus wrote:
The codex is pretty clear that it's 1 Spyder and not 1 unit of Spyders. I don't see why there's any confusion for this. Even the little fluff description for the Harvest talks about the mechanical minds being slaved to a singular Spyder.

The rules for Formations deal with units and army entry lists. What makes you think that we don't follow the rules in the case of the Necron codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shrike wrote:


This hasn't been settled by an FAQ yet and it's misleading to tell the OP definitively that he can do this. The tournament community (just one of several factions of 40k players, not authoritative) has come to the consensus that only one spider is allowed in a Harvest. Of course, outside the formation, 3 would be allowed.

Again, it is plausible (and preferable) that GW could issue definitive errata; but that as yet has not occurred. And the entry is pretty clear That it is "1" spider.

The Formation rules are pretty clear that you are dealing with units and army entry lists. The army entry list allows you to add extra spyders. Show in the rules where this permission is revoked. If you cannot then 3 spyders is legal per Canoptek Harvest by the rules. Like it or not, the rules apply to the Necron codex just like they apply to every other codex.

Look man, it says Spyder, singular, 1 UNIT of Wraiths and 1 UNIT of Scarabs. Those terms clearly allow for additional Wraiths and Scarabs but NOT Spyders. The formation has absolutely nothing to do with a normal unit of Spyders in a CAD. It is a data slate that can be used by any army, including Necrons, as described. You can interpret however you want with your bros in the basement; but the ITC and NOVA tree events, in other words, the bulk of the US tournament community, disagrees with you.

 The Shrike wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Marshal_Gus wrote:
The codex is pretty clear that it's 1 Spyder and not 1 unit of Spyders. I don't see why there's any confusion for this. Even the little fluff description for the Harvest talks about the mechanical minds being slaved to a singular Spyder.

The rules for Formations deal with units and army entry lists. What makes you think that we don't follow the rules in the case of the Necron codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shrike wrote:


This hasn't been settled by an FAQ yet and it's misleading to tell the OP definitively that he can do this. The tournament community (just one of several factions of 40k players, not authoritative) has come to the consensus that only one spider is allowed in a Harvest. Of course, outside the formation, 3 would be allowed.

Again, it is plausible (and preferable) that GW could issue definitive errata; but that as yet has not occurred. And the entry is pretty clear That it is "1" spider.

The Formation rules are pretty clear that you are dealing with units and army entry lists. The army entry list allows you to add extra spyders. Show in the rules where this permission is revoked. If you cannot then 3 spyders is legal per Canoptek Harvest by the rules. Like it or not, the rules apply to the Necron codex just like they apply to every other codex.

Look man, it says Spyder, singular, 1 UNIT of Wraiths and 1 UNIT of Scarabs. Those terms clearly allow for additional Wraiths and Scarabs but NOT Spyders. The formation has absolutely nothing to do with a normal unit of Spyders in a CAD. It is a data slate that can be used by any army, including Necrons, as described. You can interpret however you want with your bros in the basement; but the ITC and NOVA tree events, in other words, the bulk of the US tournament community, disagrees with you.

People can democratically change the rules by house ruling. So thanks for pointing out that obvious point. That has nothing to do with a RAW argument.

The rules themselves are exceedingly clear . . .



Since the Canoptek Harvest does not specify '1 Canoptek Spyder model' we are unequivocally dealing with a unit of Spyders with an initial size of 1 Spyder and since the Formation has 'no restrictions' we can unequivocally add to that initial size since the Army LIst Entry allows us to.

I think the codex is pretty clear on this one however, I am sure there are some rules lawyers out there who would argue it further. If the formation was meant to be more than 1 Canoptek Spyder it would have actually read as 1 UNIT of Canoptek Spyders. The wraiths and scarabs both state unit in the description. 1 unit of wraiths is 3 wraiths with the option to add 3 more for a maximum of 6. 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders is 1 spyder with the option of adding up to 2 more spyders to a unit. In this case I will make my own judgment on the rule of composition of the canoptek harvest and say for the purposes of this list building thread it will be limited to 1 Spyder for the formation since the formation explicitly reads as 1 Canoptek Spyder and not 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders. I do thank the folks who chimed in on that matter for their input however.

I am a hobbyist with a budget... it is a generous budget mind you, but it is a budget, thus the 1500 point limit to start with. The purpose of this list analysis is to try and build a well rounded list that will play well vs any army I have thrown at it. I know that is a tall order, GW isn't exactly a "balance" kind of game company. None of my games will be in a serious competitive environment as strenuous as a tournament... just my game group and I and a desire to crush my friends under the weight of killer space robots.

The 4 destroyers in 2 of the squads of the destroyer cult was a decision made to balance the list at 1500 points even and as a lifelong follower of Slaanesh....I can say that nothing says success like excess. I guess the question at this point since everyone seems cool with the core reclamation legion portion is which would perform better when your goal is too make a well balanced list intended for use vs anything thrown at it? A canoptek harvest or a destroyer cult? or something else entirely?

Keep in mind that since ill likely be purchasing a battleforce box or two when I finally do go shopping for this army I will have a couple of ghost arks on my shelves should I decide to add a transport or two to the reclamation legion portion.

Glad to jump off the semantics merry-go-round and return to a tactics discussion.

So, if it's an either/or proposition, I would go for the Harvest and I'll tell you why: Invisibility. It's out there, and it's a problem. Invisible wolfstars, invisible centstars, invisible guard blobs, invisible khornedogs.....you get the picture. Wraiths won't actually do damage to these things, but none of them have hit and run. You just need to tarpit them, and Wraiths are the grandaddy of tarpits.

 Lunchbox739 wrote:
I think the codex is pretty clear on this one however, I am sure there are some rules lawyers out there who would argue it further. If the formation was meant to be more than 1 Canoptek Spyder it would have actually read as 1 UNIT of Canoptek Spyders.

The formation rules specify that we are dealing with units and army entry lists. You don't have permission to treat 1 Canoptek Spyder as '1 Canoptek Spyder model'. You are required by the rules to treat 1 Canoptek Spyder as '1 unit with 1 Canoptek Spyder' since that handling is specified in the formation rules themselves. For reference here are the formation rules which are exceedingly clear that they are unequivocally dealing with units.



Unless you can show me in the rules where the very specific language in the formation rules is overridden by equally specific language you are effectively breaking from the rules that you are provided and just implementing a house rule that runs counter to the actual rules. You can of course implement your own house rule with your buds if you democratically choose to do so but you should clarify for people on this forum that you are implementing a house rule.

Brother, we are not going to continue derailing this kid's thread shouting at each other. Your point has a rationale behind it, but there is also a reason why the major tournament circuits have ruled otherwise. That is why errata is needed. Let's just leave it at that, and return to giving the OP the tactical advice he deserves.

For what your running up against I'm liking a Judicator Battalion for you more than anything else, Praetorians are able to look at most things and will die and a Stalker giving your warriors and Immortal a 2 up to hit is great especially when every hit counts against orks. The Destroyer Cult is still great especially with space marines every where in your group.

Again col_impact your input is appreciated however, as I have said previously I will be using my interpretation of the codex for the purposes of this list build discussion and will be limiting Canoptek Harvest to one spyder as stated in the Necrons Codex. It will not be a "house rule" it is simply the interpretation myself and my gaming group are choosing to use until an errata is made by GW. Your interpretation has merit and a solid basis for questioning but in this case you are just going to have to accept the fact that we just don't agree and can move forward in a friendly manor agreeing to disagree. The argument may be a moot point completely for me if a decision is made to go with something other than a canoptek harvest. Please keep that in mind should you decide to post further on this matter.


Lonestar413 - In this point range do you think it is worth trimming 55 points out of the reclamation legion or deathmarks portion to fit it in? For 405 points I would get the base formation consisting of 2 - 5 man squad of praetorians and a triarch stalker vs 350 points for 3 bases of scarabs, a spyder and 6 canoptek wraiths with 3++ on the wraiths and the option of a reanimation protocol as long as I keep them within range of the spider due to adaptive subroutines. The latter seems like it would be a sturdier option to tie up those pesky death stars while the warriors, immortals, deathmarks and tomb blades in the reclamation legion portion are withering the rest of the foes army away with gauss fire. I feel like the Judicator battalion would provide more reliable destruction but would end up getting slapped around should the need arise to put in in front of a wolfstar, bikestar or some other type of deathstar coming across the table at me. Horde armies would be its weakness but even then it could still do enough damage to make up its points if positioned correctly.

Why not have your cake and eat it too?

Reclamation Legion (540)

Orikan the Diviner

10x Warriors
10x Warriors
5x Immortals

5x Tomb Blades: Vanes, Scopes

Destroyer Cult (580)

Destroyer Lord: Warscythe, Phase Shifter

2x Destroyers + 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyers + 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyers + 1x Heavy Destroyer

Canoptek Harvest (378)

Spyder: Gloom Prism
6x Wraiths: Whip Coils
3x Scarabs

Total: 1498

If it were me, I'd dump the reclamation legion and go full on rogue. Fill out the Destroyer Cult with more Heavy Ds, add a Judicator Battalion and just bring the heat. You'll be different than just about every Necron player around, and I imagine you'd win a lot of games anyway, even without the Decurion.

Does Orikan work as your overlord? Thought he and Szeras were royal court only in a decruion?

Derp! Zandrekh then. Whoopsy.

 The Shrike wrote:
Derp! Zandrekh then. Whoopsy.

Well he won't fit and he's not really adding much. Get a standard overlord and buy something else.

well... the Decurion detachment gives Ever-Living. that +1 to RA would make a difference and is why most of todays crons players are rolling the decurion. The sky is the limit however and I am not opposed to ditching the reclamation legion portion as long as it is tactically sound. Your Idea isn't a bad option Shrike.... it would cut out vehicles completely though and take the model count down to 51...


Reclamation Legion (585)

Overlord
Warscythe
Phase Shifter
The Veil of Darkness

10x Warriors
10x Warriors
5x Immortals

5x Tomb Blades: Vanes, Scopes

Destroyer Cult (545)

Destroyer Lord
Warscythe
Phase Shifter

3x Destroyers
1x Heavy gauss cannon
3x Destroyers
1x Heavy gauss cannon
3x Destroyers
1x Heavy gauss cannon

Canoptek Harvest (368)

Spyder
6x Wraiths
6x Whip Coils
3x Scarabs

Total: 1498

Being a legal Decurion detachment they will all have Ever-Living. The Reclamation Legion and the Canoptek Harvest start on the board with the Destroyer Cult in reserve, the Spyder in the Canoptek Harvest will take RA for its adaptive subroutine to give the Wraiths that extra survival roll for those times when a 3++ doesn't quite cut it. March the reclamation legion and harvest across the table and shoot. Turn 2, Deep Strike the Destroyer Cult in, then use the Overlords Veil of Darkness to pick him and his unit up and deep strike into a more favorable position to back up the destroyers if need be. I guess the question that should be asked for that tactic though is......is the Overlord's unit just one of the warrior, immortal or tomb blade units in the Reclamation Legion or is it the entire Reclamation Legion for the use of Veil of Darkness?

This seems fairly maneuverable even without dedicated transports... has a awesome tarpit to answer those pesky death stars, has extra bodies to pick up objectives when needed and enough gauss to handle whatever when the dice are rolling well. After doing the math this seems to be the cheapest in terms of model costs as well, which leaves room for a couple of extra models here and there for add on's to build past 1500 and get started on that 1850 list o.O

 Lunchbox739 wrote:
Again col_impact your input is appreciated however, as I have said previously I will be using my interpretation of the codex for the purposes of this list build discussion and will be limiting Canoptek Harvest to one spyder as stated in the Necrons Codex. It will not be a "house rule" it is simply the interpretation myself and my gaming group are choosing to use until an errata is made by GW. Your interpretation has merit and a solid basis for questioning but in this case you are just going to have to accept the fact that we just don't agree and can move forward in a friendly manor agreeing to disagree. The argument may be a moot point completely for me if a decision is made to go with something other than a canoptek harvest. Please keep that in mind should you decide to post further on this matter.

You and your buds can agree to house rule it however which way you want. However, as I have pointed out by pointing to actual rules, the rules are in favor of people playing up to 3 spyders in the Canoptek Harvest formation.

If a Necron player shows up at your local game store and wants to run 3 spyders in the Canoptek Harvest formation I hope all of you are principled enough to allow him to do so and to not resort to mob pressure to go against the clear rules in this case. In the absence of errata, the rules very clearly allow a Necron player to field up to 3 Canoptek Spyders in the Canoptek Harvest formation, as I have shown by referencing the formation rules themselves. If you feel otherwise, please point to actual rules.

This thread is about building a 1500 point list that will use 1 spyder in a canoptek harvest per the description in the codex not about whether or not taking more than one is legal. If you have something to add to the discussion that furthers that then please contribute.... otherwise kindly take your rules discussion over canoptek harvest to another thread.

col_impact wrote:

 Lunchbox739 wrote:
Again col_impact your input is appreciated however, as I have said previously I will be using my interpretation of the codex for the purposes of this list build discussion and will be limiting Canoptek Harvest to one spyder as stated in the Necrons Codex. It will not be a "house rule" it is simply the interpretation myself and my gaming group are choosing to use until an errata is made by GW. Your interpretation has merit and a solid basis for questioning but in this case you are just going to have to accept the fact that we just don't agree and can move forward in a friendly manor agreeing to disagree. The argument may be a moot point completely for me if a decision is made to go with something other than a canoptek harvest. Please keep that in mind should you decide to post further on this matter.

You and your buds can agree to house rule it however which way you want. However, as I have pointed out by pointing to actual rules, the rules are in favor of people playing up to 3 spyders in the Canoptek Harvest formation.

If a Necron player shows up at your local game store and wants to run 3 spyders in the Canoptek Harvest formation I hope all of you are principled enough to allow him to do so and to not resort to mob pressure to go against the clear rules in this case. In the absence of errata, the rules very clearly allow a Necron player to field up to 3 Canoptek Spyders in the Canoptek Harvest formation, as I have shown by referencing the formation rules themselves. If you feel otherwise, please point to actual rules.

Okay Lunchbox, back to your list.

I really don't like the idea of beefing up a foot lord. If you lost a Tomb Blade and some toys you could get a Barge Lord with scythe. I think that grants greater utility. You would lose the one-turn gate ability from the veil, but I think it's worth the trade.

Lol that has zero to do with principle and everything to do with RAW. As stated multiple times "one spyder" is not "a unit of spyders". There is no room for debate or at least here shouldn't be and this coming from a long time necron player who would absolutely love to run that formation with 3 spyders, however that's just not how the rules are written.

Back to the thread post for gods sake. Your list is solid, you have a good concept for a solid base for necrons. If you're going to run ghost archs I like running a big blob of 20 warriors. That unit will not die to anything except cc. No amount of shooting I have ever seen can kill a whole 20 man squad in 1 turn, and then the ghost archs replenish.

Epartalis wrote:
Lol that has zero to do with principle and everything to do with RAW. As stated multiple times "one spyder" is not "a unit of spyders". There is no room for debate or at least here shouldn't be and this coming from a long time necron player who would absolutely love to run that formation with 3 spyders, however that's just not how the rules are written.

If the Canoptek Harvest is a formation then you follow the formation rules.



The rules do not say "1 Canoptek Spyder [model]." The rules actually say "[1 unit of] 1 Canoptek Spyder." The formation rules as I have shown above provide the missing details and tell us unequivocally to treat the 1 Canoptek Spyder as a unit with unrestricted access to its Army List Entry. The rules are exceedingly straightforward. You are literally making stuff up to add 'model' to 1 Canoptek Spyder. The Formation rules do not allow that.