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I've been thinking about this for a while and it came up in another thread.

What's the point of tearing down a game system that either you don't play or, you've never played or that you have no intention of playing? Especially if your objction is based off of personal preferences or taste. For instance you think that the models in game A are really ugly and you just can't stand to look at them. That's fine and it's your perogative to avoid playing the game. And, if someone asks your opinion of the aestethics then please fee free to chime in. But if someone starts a thread about being interested in the game you jumping in and saying "Don't play it. The game stinks because I think the models are ugly." Then not only are you not adding anything to the conversation (no one can argue that you don't think the models are ugly) but you're seeking to deny another person the right to experience the game for themselves. I would presume merely to seek justification for your dislike.

If you don't like a game for mechanical or balance reasons then, by all means, say so but be clear in what you object about in the game. This may actually help a person decide whether or not to play the game and your objections can be discussed amongst the populace of the board. People ask advice for all sorts of reasons ranging from gaming experience to specific tactics. If you have something constructive to add I'm sure that they would appreciate the input. If you've got nothing to add but negative information based upon nothing but personal taste then why don't you just pass on the thread and allow the OP to get the information he needs?

In my opinion if you don't play because of a personal subjective belief then don't play. But I don't understand what you hope to accomplish by ruining someone else's experience. The only thing that I see coming out of it is an opinion from others that you are either immature or just a whiner.

/rant

Welcome to the internet.

Also, this is more a blog thing, not really a discussion worthy topic.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


In my opinion if you don't play because of a personal subjective belief then don't play. But I don't understand what you hope to accomplish by ruining someone else's experience. The only thing that I see coming out of it is an opinion from others that you are either immature or just a whiner.

/rant

If I see someone about to step into a pile of dog feces, I stop by and warn him.

I've just seen what has caused this thread. Someone saying that the slightly crappy looking models in WM stopped him wanting to play.

In a thread asking what the main weakness in WM was

Again welcome to the internet.

Incorrect. That thread wasn't asking about the main weakness in wmh was, it was a thread asking whether the turn structure of the game and piece trading were letting it down.

Personally I think disliking the aesthetics is a valid complaint. Wargames are more than just abstract geometry and attack angles.

Still, hardly merits a thread eh.

I imagine this will be locked anyways

 Sigvatr wrote:

If I see someone about to step into a pile of dog feces, I stop by and warn him.

This. If someone has enough $ to make all their own mistakes that's fine, but buying into a game that one ends up not liking can be a costly decision. As long as the detractor provides actual reasons for not liking a game then there's nothing wrong with trying to steer someone away from it.

Also, when it comes to games, one persons subjective reason is another person's objective measurement. There's little value in trying to discourage the expression of one of the other. If TDOJ is correct, then not liking minis is certainly a good reason to discourage someone from a miniatures game.Simply read, make your own judgment and shop accordingly.

IMHO, the most important thing to understand is that if a complainer's poorly expressed opinion is going to ruin your experience, then the complainer isn't the only one who is immature.

I'm not saying that a poorly worded complaint will ruin my experience or anything of the sort. My problem is people just saying negative things without providing a basis for their complaint. And yes I know that this is the Internet where anonimity allows people to act in a less than civil manner. But that doesn't mean that we have to accept that behavior.

I'm not limiting my discussion just to miniature games or even games in general. It's the same in real life. No one likes someone who just enters a conversation by saying "That stinks" (and not referring to his olfactory sense) and then leaving isn't contributing to the conversation.
The point of a thread/board, at least as far as I'm concerned, is to be able to converse with someone and exchange ideas and opinions. If you can't add to the discussion then why try to ruin it for others?
It's like going to a public debate and going "I don't support this" and then walking away. Did you get to express your opinion? Yes. Did it add anything to the discourse? No. Will it change anyone's mind? Probably not. So why do it? If you have a reason for not liking something then don't just say that you don't like it but also say why.
The exchange of ideas is what makes these boards worthwhile. If you can't or won't discuss those ideas in a civil (and not necessarily rational) way then why do you come here?

Some people like to troll threads just to stir the pot.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm not saying that a poorly worded complaint will ruin my experience or anything of the sort. My problem is people just saying negative things without providing a basis for their complaint. And yes I know that this is the Internet where anonimity allows people to act in a less than civil manner. But that doesn't mean that we have to accept that behavior.

Dakka has a moderation style that lets fools stating their opinions as long as they don't get overly offensive. I'd much rather have some idiots stating their opinions than have heavy-handed moderation that stifle's conversation. Looking at your profile, you've been around long enough that I would have thought you'd be more than used to this dynamic by now.

Used to it? Yes, but I don't have to like that particular dynamic. I'm all for freedom of expression but I don't have to like how some people go about making their opinions known. This wasn't meant as an appeal to Dakka to change their mod policy. It is an appeal to the users of Dakka to consider how they use the site.
Making a statement like "I don't know why he made this thread. It will just be closed by a Mod soon." Is a waste of everyone's time. The time he took to write it and the time that people took to read it. If he felt that way then why make a comment and why not just hit the Mod button instead? Did it add anything to the thread? No, but he felt he needed to make a totally worthless statement so that others could see how clever he is.
Trolling is becoming a way of life for some people but I don't have to like it or accept it without comment.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Making a statement like "I don't know why he made this thread. It will just be closed by a Mod soon." Is a waste of everyone's time. The time he took to write it and the time that people took to read it. If he felt that way then why make a comment and why not just hit the Mod button instead? Did it add anything to the thread? No...

Some people don't want the 'it just sucks' argument examined too closely because it's one of their few defences of 40K/WFB against other games and rules.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


In my opinion if you don't play because of a personal subjective belief then don't play. But I don't understand what you hope to accomplish by ruining someone else's experience. The only thing that I see coming out of it is an opinion from others that you are either immature or just a whiner.

/rant

If I see someone about to PAY MONEY FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO step into a pile OF THE FINEST dog feces, I stop by and warn him.

I corrected that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I've been thinking about this for a while and it came up in another thread.

What's the point of tearing down a game system that either you don't play or, you've never played or that you have no intention of playing? Especially if your objction is based off of personal preferences or taste.

Why do I still post on a largely 40k forum in 40k threads even though I've played only 2 or 3 games this edition over almost the past year? Because despite the fact that I actively despise the cramming of apoc into normal 40k in a crass attempt to sell more models at the expense of the community, I still own 20,000pts of painted 40k and would like to enjoy using them again. I have no intention of playing 40k 7e RAW for as long as it lasts (at current estimate... a few more months?) but I would like to look forward to playing a game of 40k sometime in the future without having to negotiate the turn 0 prenup to avoid the pitfalls caused by GW deciding to throw all responsibility of balancing the rules into their garbage bin. Until someone offers to buy all 20,000pts of my models at a fair value (say... 25% off current retail), I will continue to voice my opposition to the continuing negative changes the company is introducing unsuccessfully to shore up their flagging bottom line. From an economic perspective, GW screwing up the rules is lowering the value of my collection since lots of people play (and buy new and used) 40k simply because others are doing so.

There is a difference between stating a criticiism of something and being negative. If you have a valid argument for or against a game then you should air that argument. I don't mean that you should always be rainbows and flowers and no dissent can be tolerated. I mean that if you are going to say something, anything, back it up with more than just a statement. Try to form a congent rationale for your stand and let the slings and arrows fly.

I have to agree with Leo_the_Rat's sentiment.

Unfortunately, there is a rather large subset of internet users that completely lack any capacity to compose their ideas in a coherent manner and present them with reason and thoughtfulness. Whether it's age/maturity, intellectual ability, or relative degrees of laziness, this subset apparently believes that unsupported presentation of opinion suffices as reasonable discourse.

There is, unfortunately, nothing that can be done about individuals who think in this manner. I can only suggest liberal use of the "Ignore" function. Your browsing experience will thereby be improved.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
There is a difference between stating a criticiism of something and being negative. If you have a valid argument for or against a game then you should air that argument. I don't mean that you should always be rainbows and flowers and no dissent can be tolerated. I mean that if you are going to say something, anything, back it up with more than just a statement. Try to form a congent rationale for your stand and let the slings and arrows fly.

The problem is that any legitimate complaint is called "Negative" and "whining."

 warboss wrote:
Why do I still post on a largely 40k forum in 40k threads even though I've played only 2 or 3 games this edition over almost the past year? Because despite the fact that I actively despise the cramming of apoc into normal 40k in a crass attempt to sell more models at the expense of the community, I still own 20,000pts of painted 40k and would like to enjoy using them again. I have no intention of playing 40k 7e RAW for as long as it lasts (at current estimate... a few more months?) but I would like to look forward to playing a game of 40k sometime in the future without having to negotiate the turn 0 prenup to avoid the pitfalls caused by GW deciding to throw all responsibility of balancing the rules into their garbage bin. Until someone offers to buy all 20,000pts of my models at a fair value (say... 25% off current retail), I will continue to voice my opposition to the continuing negative changes the company is introducing unsuccessfully to shore up their flagging bottom line. From an economic perspective, GW screwing up the rules is lowering the value of my collection since lots of people play (and buy new and used) 40k simply because others are doing so.

I think you are missing Leo's point. You have grievances with 40k, but you don't need to air those grievances at every opportunity. Sure, if someone is asking for opinions on GW as a company, or 40k as a game, fire away, but if someone posts a thread asking which Marine chapter they should paint their new models as, jumping in to rage against GW is both inappropriate and rather douchey.

And 25% off retail for used minis? Come on man, that isn't fair value. 50% off maybe...

Then challange that statement. Ask the respondant to explain what makes the criticism "negative" or "whining". I'd be willing to bet that more times than not they can not come up with a counter argument to your complaint. As most people know one of the last resorts for someone losing a battle is to belittle the opponent rather than further address the discussion.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I
If you don't like a game for mechanical or balance reasons then, by all means, say so but be clear in what you object about in the game. This may actually help a person decide whether or not to play the game and your objections can be discussed amongst the populace of the board. People ask advice for all sorts of reasons ranging from gaming experience to specific tactics. If you have something constructive to add I'm sure that they would appreciate the input. If you've got nothing to add but negative information based upon nothing but personal taste then why don't you just pass on the thread and allow the OP to get the information he needs?

In my opinion if you don't play because of a personal subjective belief then don't play. But I don't understand what you hope to accomplish by ruining someone else's experience. The only thing that I see coming out of it is an opinion from others that you are either immature or just a whiner.

/rant

So, are you saying that complaints based on rule sets--those things we can ignore in favor of free rules from just about anywhere--are legitimate, but complaints based on the design, assembly, material or even the aesthetics of miniatures--those things we will spend hours assembling, painting and staring at--are pointless and shouldn't even be considered? Guess what I think of that.

Discussion about aesthetics are important. Without criticism, constructive or otherwise, minis would still all look like Gary Morley sculpts from the 90's. Warning a potential customer protects him from the harm of buying, say, Basilean Men at Arms or full-priced Sedition Wars. Criticism of the minis let creators know why people aren't buying their products, as well as what mistakes to avoid next time. Smart creators will use the criticism to improve their product lines or salesmanship, or identify their target niche more clearly.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
There is a difference between stating a criticiism of something and being negative.

Absolutely. The issue, and judging by your first post, is that people including yourself are more inclined to see anything criticizing the game as negative rather than just criticism.

If you have a valid argument for or against a game then you should air that argument.

Plenty on this board do just that. I'm not seeing what the problem is that your first post is really lamenting. Shitpoasting will happen regardless of whether its positive, negative, constructive, or trollish. Ignore the garbage and consider the good stuff. Its a forum on the internet, for better or for worse, you're going to attract a wide variety of people.

I mean that if you are going to say something, anything, back it up with more than just a statement. Try to form a congent rationale for your stand and let the slings and arrows fly.

Again, plenty of criticism against GW does exactly this. There's plenty that doesn't, but that applies to just about every aspect of this forum and every post. I don't see what's specific about GW and their criticisms.

Its up to you to dig through the garbage and find the good posts, of which there are plenty, on both sides of the fence.

People always complain about the no-content "I hate it" posts, but never complain about the equally-vapid "I love it" posts. Those both share the same amount of information, and as data points are equally valuable to prospective new players or game creators.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Then challenge that statement. Ask the respondent to explain what makes the criticism "negative" or "whining". I'd be willing to bet that more times than not they can not come up with a counter argument to your complaint. As most people know one of the last resorts for someone losing a battle is to belittle the opponent rather than further address the discussion.

I did.

I will admit, first of all to not reading the 5 paragraph long OP in that thread, but the title asks what the main detractor of that game is. My answer was exactly what I posted. Then responded to name-calling with a more detailed account of why I believe hat I posted in my original post.

I never once encouraged others to not play the game. I'm not concerned with how people I don't know on the internet spend their money. If I ruined anyone's gaming experience by pointing out how ridiculous the models are I would question their actual enjoyment of the game. It's like complaining about a person's bumper sticker changing your opinion of something. It doesn't happen. Disagree with me and move on, don't whine about it and even start a entirely new thread about it. Sheesh.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Then challenge that statement. Ask the respondent to explain what makes the criticism "negative" or "whining". I'd be willing to bet that more times than not they can not come up with a counter argument to your complaint. As most people know one of the last resorts for someone losing a battle is to belittle the opponent rather than further address the discussion.

I did.

I will admit, first of all to not reading the 5 paragraph long OP in that thread, but the title asks what the main detractor of that game is. My answer was exactly what I posted. Then responded to name-calling with a more detailed account of why I believe hat I posted in my original post.

I never once encouraged others to not play the game. I'm not concerned with how people I don't know on the internet spend their money. If I ruined anyone's gaming experience by pointing out how ridiculous the models are I would question their actual enjoyment of the game. It's like complaining about a person's bumper sticker changing your opinion of something. It doesn't happen. Disagree with me and move on, don't whine about it and even start a entirely new thread about it. Sheesh.

Because the entire two page thread was about the specific game mechanics of WMH. Then you come in saying "The models look goofy" and nothing else. It wasn't informed and it had nothing to do with anything in the thread.
Your post was called a troll post because that was exactly how it came across. Next time, bother to find out what the subject is before posting random things. That will avoid a lot of "negative criticism" of your posts.

Some people like the sound of their own voices and use it to fill some sort of personal void.
Use the ignore button, gloss over their posts and most importantly take a deep breath and realise tomorrow no one will even remember the post.

I love how whenever someone complains about "whiners" and "haters" and "internet negativity" they never actually link to any examples.

Bobtheinquisitor- I was not complaining about the subject of the statement, that the poster didn't like the models and therefore didn't like the game. I was/am complaining that the poster didn't state why he didn't like the models. You and I can discuss the various aspects of the aesthetics of varous models but if you or I just say "I like this." or "I don't like that." and leave it at that then no discussion can occur. I can't argue why you should like or dislike something if I don't know what the basis of your opinion is. I certainly do not want to get into a "because I said so" discussion. Those are a waste of time and effort.
Again, people should feel free to express their opinions but, they should also state why they feel the way they do. That's the only way to have a rational discussion.

Remember that whiners are a very vocal Minority.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember that whiners are a very vocal Minority.

Define "whiners" because if its synonymous with "person with valid criticism" then no, I don't think they're as much as a minority as you think.
Yes, there are people who will complain about everything. The "I refuse to watch the X-Men movies because they haven't done the going into space story arch yet."
But then there's the "This game has some serious problems. And here they are in great detail..."
They're not the same.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember that whiners are a very vocal Minority.

Define "whiners" because if its synonymous with "person with valid criticism" then no, I don't think they're as much as a minority as you think.
Yes, there are people who will complain about everything. The "I refuse to watch the X-Men movies because they haven't done the going into space story arch yet."
But then there's the "This game has some serious problems. And here they are in great detail..."
They're not the same.

When I say whiners, I mean the person who brings up their dislike of the game, even when it's off topic, backed up or not. Mind you, if its a topic about the game being good or not, if you back your opinion up, your not a whiner. If you just say it sucks, then your whining. Hope I cleared up my stance a bit.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember that whiners are a very vocal Minority.

Define "whiners" because if its synonymous with "person with valid criticism" then no, I don't think they're as much as a minority as you think.
Yes, there are people who will complain about everything. The "I refuse to watch the X-Men movies because they haven't done the going into space story arch yet."
But then there's the "This game has some serious problems. And here they are in great detail..."
They're not the same.

When I say whiners, I mean the person who brings up their dislike of the game, even when it's off topic, backed up or not. Mind you, if its a topic about the game being good or not, if you back your opinion up, your not a whiner. If you just say it sucks, then your whining. Hope I cleared up my stance a bit.

Perfectly.