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Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





Was going to post something about this but didn't know how to word it, until I saw the "Most Grevious Weakness" thread thats doing the rounds.

I'm very new to this game, as is my main opponent. We've run into something of a 'problem' in the rules, ie, where the first model to swing wins the fight. The game has largely degenerated into getting that first swing by whatever means and then dying to the counterattack by the rest of the army, and its detracting from both of our game experiences.

Now I hit a similar issue when I started Infinity, and eventually was able to move past it and enjoy the game fully. So I'm well aware that, despite a big thread saying its a hefty issue, this situation we're in is another "noob trap", a strategy that crappy players like myself have difficulty moving past without guidance from veterans.

So I'm just wondering, how best to move past this stumbling block in the rules and get onto something more interesting? What are some tactics and abilities (aside from bubble wrap, which we already use - one persons wrap kills the others in one turn and then the alpha strike continues!) that can help negate this alpha strike based gameplay?

I play Skorne btw, migrating from starter box to Rasheth's chain gang, against Legion using various casters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/21 10:26:54


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Some legion lists are just utterly brutal in the piece trade. A key example being a list full of Angelius warbeasts and epic Vayle as the caster. Those Angelius will bounce back and forwards, back and forwards, murdering models and retreating out of retaliation range. Those lists you will struggle against, because, when played well, they have a lot of synergy and are very mean.

Most people have an option to help with it though. Casters can throw around rough terrain to slow down the enemy alpha/counter to your alpha, you have animus' like bump, diminish, spiny growth, or other defensive buffs (or offensive debuffs in the case of diminish), and you have order of activation. I know you said "don't say bubble wrap" but "bubble wrap" really isn't the way to think about it. Get your titan in there, smash face, then activate those nihilators AFTER your titan, and run up, jamming your opponent further and, unless he goes to a lot of effort, leaving your titan free to murder next turn.

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




You can also be more selective with your targets. Sometimes its more crippling to take out a support piece rather than a beast. But in reality the game really is about piece trading in the sense you have to make sacrifices for you to win most games and you have to be selective about the wheres and the whens. It's like chess in some ways sometimes you have to give to get and then you look at the combinations in the exchange. If you end up in a better position at the end of the exchange then go for it. Otherwise look at doing something else.

Hordes is particularly brutal in damage output vs defensive stats. Trolls however, have a lot of good defensive buffs and most of their troops have tough. So their survivabilty is better than most.

You'll also find that playing the steamroller scenerios will help a bit since that adds another layer to the game.
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





You're going against Legion, an army with large attack power held up by excellent support units. They thrive in an attacking environment, they get in they get out and everything dies. Doubly so considering the fact that legion Beasts are a little bit fragile.

Against some armies, like trolls. You'll have a harder time knocking them down. They get into combat and unless you kill them in one turn, they'll hit you back.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

Most factions have some sort of tarpit or tank unit. I use alot of jamming units. You can also bait people with some of your models. Also scenarios are important.

Some casters are very control oriented or use debuffs. Spells like crippling grasp can basically remove a melee unit from the game. Even things like cover fire templates can change a battlefield.

All in all there is alot more to the game than just alpha strike peice trading. Sounds like you just need to explore it more.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





I found that I did much better when I got some tough to remove tarpit units to take the alpha strike on the chin. I'm a slow army so I have to plan for the counter attack.

You have to trade cheap units for expensive ones.
Recently I lost a game to Steel Head Halberdier spam. (2 units is a lot!) He choked my charge lanes so I couldn't get to his good stuff with my heavies.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





 motyak wrote:
Some legion lists are just utterly brutal in the piece trade. A key example being a list full of Angelius warbeasts and epic Vayle as the caster. Those Angelius will bounce back and forwards, back and forwards, murdering models and retreating out of retaliation range. Those lists you will struggle against, because, when played well, they have a lot of synergy and are very mean.

Most people have an option to help with it though. Casters can throw around rough terrain to slow down the enemy alpha/counter to your alpha, you have animus' like bump, diminish, spiny growth, or other defensive buffs (or offensive debuffs in the case of diminish), and you have order of activation. I know you said "don't say bubble wrap" but "bubble wrap" really isn't the way to think about it. Get your titan in there, smash face, then activate those nihilators AFTER your titan, and run up, jamming your opponent further and, unless he goes to a lot of effort, leaving your titan free to murder next turn.


I'm open to alternative uses for bubble wrap, and moving it second is an interesting idea. Will need some method to clear a path to their heavy - maybe Rasheth's acid cloud thing

Anyone here familiar enough with Skorne to suggest units that can help me here?
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Dakkamite wrote:

I'm open to alternative uses for bubble wrap, and moving it second is an interesting idea. Will need some method to clear a path to their heavy - maybe Rasheth's acid cloud thing

Anyone here familiar enough with Skorne to suggest units that can help me here?


You have access to the best unit in the game to both clear paths and to serve as a meat shield: Gatorman Posse
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





Getting stuck in the same type of game in WM can make things boring and seem that the game is 2 one dimensional. Which is bad.

I do think that being good at piece trading is a good way to see the game and will help you be a good player. But if you want to move on I suggest building a different type of list or playing new people. Both are super important in learning the game.

Playing with a wider variety of people will help your game and your enjoyment of it alot. You won't continue get stuck in the same bad matchups when playing certain people and will see many new tricks.

Playing different lists can you really lead the game away from piece trading. As Motyak pointed out some armies are really good at it and others not so much. So should change your list that there are not any pieces to trade, I do love hordes of troops, Go super high armor so that those alpha striking models may not have the umph to complete the kill.

The toughest part of building list with very different styles is that many new players don't have a ton of selection for models. To that I say proxy. Try everything, play a 4 beast heavy list, play 40 trooper spam and everything in between. This will help learn, not get in a rut, and save you a boat load of money from not buying models that you end up never using.

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