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Heard an unfortunate rumour in my FLGS yesterday that Battlefront was struggling to pay bills due to the DUST saga, and so a number of retailers were refusing to stock FoW any more - anyone else experienced this?

Out of sheer ignorance of how retail works I have to ask how Battlefront would owe money to people that stock their product?

Contractual stuff or unsold stock buy back?

I have heard similar stuff,basically a cash flow problem. Seems a number of companies like PSC are undercutting BF's high prices.

Without knowing a any real info on the issue I wonder what BF's long term plan is to deal with companies like PSC and Zvezda. Eventually they are going to run out of wars to cover so new releases will they dry up ?

Even useless companies like GW can re-invent figures or story lines at a drop of a hat ensuring a rush of people buying. What will BF do when they have covered all the wars ?

WW3 ?

Well they've expanded Vietnam recently, have announced more for Great War/fate of a nation, alongside 'Cold War gone hot' and also the Pacific (like that will sell) - they've got a lot coming up.

As for a cash flow problem I think there's more underlying the dust/battlefront breakdown than cash flow - and I doubt we'll ever know the real truth.

Would also add my FLGS is sticking more FoW than almost anything else

Currently, I don't think anyone outside of any of the companies involved is qualified to comment on what's happening. With stuff like this there are usually rumours, the 'truth', and the actual truth, with many people claiming to know the latter, but only really knowing either or both of the former two.

Most of the information anyone on Dakka has, as well as ongoing discussions about it, can be found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/633537.page

As for retailers refusing to stock FoW, I can't say I've personally experienced it, no.

This stock supply issue has been going on for about twelve to eighteen months, maybe longer. One of my FLGS gave up stocking BF because of the stock supply issue. I hear about restocking issues from retailers all the time.

I thought BF's solution to the PSC/Zvesda 'problem' was their new range of plastic kits.

Likely what has happened in the Dust saga is that there a large number of stores backed that and/or served as a conduit for others to back it. This puts them in the unenviable position of having their store's funds tied up in that nonsense or angry customers who are venting through the store, which understandably makes them loathe to continue to deal with the company. Throw in other on-going issues like getting stock and various tournament changes making that scene less desirable for the stores as a profit vehicle and it's entirely reasonable from the store's perspective to just say "I don't care who's wrong, I'm out" and wash their hands of them both. That BF is having cash flow sounds more like a store's interpretation on why the drama is occurring than fact, though obviously the saga is indeed on-going with no real end in sight being reported.

However, looking at the FoW State of the Union and plans for 2015, I don't see signs that there's there's a major cash flow problems with BF as a whole; those kinds of things aren't even thought about without the capital to back them up since we're talking about a large amount of plastic and the concomitant lead time. With 3 plastic kits being released so far in 2015, that's likely a similar amount of money to the dispute ($72k of freebies) spent on just those, never mind the supposed six Soviet kits coming with Berlin in a month's time. An expansion into Cold War Gone Hot could imply that they feel strategically they "need" to expand into areas with less competition, but that's their general MO; 15mm WW2 was a thing they did specifically to get into a market where they could be the bigger fish versus 28mm. That some prospectively strong sellers aren't until very late in the year and with ample warning to those competitors that it's coming implies that there's no real urgency behind those moves.

Obviously if we get to October and BF has pushed a ton of that stuff back then yes, there's cash flow problems. Mid-way through the year it's hard to say, as they were supposed to preview their new buildings and haven't yet, but everything else through 5 months is about where they said it would be, US dock strike notwithstanding. Berlin will be the first real show in that regards I suppose; if that slips then perhaps those are cracks in the foundation.

Rumors about Battlefront's fiscal health are nothing new. There have been rumors floating around for at least a couple of years. The primary thing that people point to is the difficulty that BF seems to sometimes have in getting stuff to stores. We know that there have been some changes at the manufacturing level, and that this might have affected BF's actual (as opposed to scheduled) release schedule. But we don't know how much it did, and how much might be due to something else - for instance, the rumored financial problems.

The dispute over Dust can be read about on the Rumor forum. Long story short, no one really knows what's up except for the people involved.

BF has a full set of releases scheduled for this year, which suggests that the company is still able to get product out. And so far as I know, the spin-off periods have done well enough. At the very least, the release of Brown Water Navy suggests that people are buying Vietnam products.

The closest thing to a bad sign, imo, is the recent cutting loose of Wargames Illustrated. One possibly take away from that is that Battlefront didn't think it had the funds needed to support the magazine. On the other hand, it's also possible that the split was due to other, entirely different reasons. There's not really enough information to say either way.

I always felt that Wargames Illustrated was doomed from the start. when they acquired it, the mag was on life support. How you are supposed to take a dying magazine with limited appeal In a niche market and then reduce the options of coverage within that niche yet somehow expand readership baffles me.

It just seemed like it would be a constant resource suck.

Shotgun wrote:
I always felt that Wargames Illustrated was doomed from the start. when they acquired it, the mag was on life support. How you are supposed to take a dying magazine with limited appeal In a niche market and then reduce the options of coverage within that niche yet somehow expand readership baffles me.

It just seemed like it would be a constant resource suck.

I wonder how Wargames Ill. would have faired if they would have turned into a White Dwarf Knock off for BF minis and games.

 col. krazy kenny wrote:

I wonder how Wargames Ill. would have faired if they would have turned into a White Dwarf Knock off for BF minis and games.

Extremely badly. It already arguably suffered by not covering other WW2 games like Bolt Action.

Personally I quite like WI although its an occasional purchase for me.

 col. krazy kenny wrote:

Shotgun wrote:
I always felt that Wargames Illustrated was doomed from the start. when they acquired it, the mag was on life support. How you are supposed to take a dying magazine with limited appeal In a niche market and then reduce the options of coverage within that niche yet somehow expand readership baffles me.

It just seemed like it would be a constant resource suck.

I wonder how Wargames Ill. would have faired if they would have turned into a White Dwarf Knock off for BF minis and games.

Probably even worse than the real White Dwarf mag is doing.

Shotgun wrote:
I always felt that Wargames Illustrated was doomed from the start. when they acquired it, the mag was on life support. How you are supposed to take a dying magazine with limited appeal In a niche market and then reduce the options of coverage within that niche yet somehow expand readership baffles me.

It just seemed like it would be a constant resource suck.

How did they reduce the options of coverage within the niche? WI had always covered periods and genres other than just what BF produces products for, and continued to do so after they purchased the magazine.

 eddieazrael wrote:
Heard an unfortunate rumour in my FLGS yesterday that Battlefront was struggling to pay bills due to the DUST saga, and so a number of retailers were refusing to stock FoW any more - anyone else experienced this?

For Memorial Day Weekend, Brookhurst Hobbies ran a Flames of War (only) sale.

I swung by Brookhurst Hobbies on Monday, and the pickings were kinda slim - nothing particularly attractive that I wanted to buy. No Open Fire! base sets of any sort, and very little other stuff.

No sales on PSC (which I actually wanted), Peter Pig, Warlord Bolt Action, Dragon, Tamiya or any other WW2 / WW1 / ACW / RW stuff. Just Flames of War on sale.

I'm not surprised that word has gotten out, and suspect that BH was doing a pre-clearance of BF product under the Memorial Day pretext.

This day and age, a magazine isn't really that good of an investment unless you have a really captive audience. Historical gamers are not captive in the way GW and PP players are.

They also just launched a new paint line. Probably just as bad an idea, but we'll see.

They've also kept a small factory in Malaysia running all this time, and started plastic production.

Like any company, their finances probably wax and wane for a variety of reasons. These latest rumors are probably a direct result of Dust fans desperately trying to cast doubt on BF's business.

It is likely that their cash reserves are pretty low right now just from actually doing stuff with it, rather than the Dust spat really affecting them all that much.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 eddieazrael wrote:
Heard an unfortunate rumour in my FLGS yesterday that Battlefront was struggling to pay bills due to the DUST saga, and so a number of retailers were refusing to stock FoW any more - anyone else experienced this?

For Memorial Day Weekend, Brookhurst Hobbies ran a Flames of War (only) sale.

I swung by Brookhurst Hobbies on Monday, and the pickings were kinda slim - nothing particularly attractive that I wanted to buy. No Open Fire! base sets of any sort, and very little other stuff.

No sales on PSC (which I actually wanted), Peter Pig, Warlord Bolt Action, Dragon, Tamiya or any other WW2 / WW1 / ACW / RW stuff. Just Flames of War on sale.

I'm not surprised that word has gotten out, and suspect that BH was doing a pre-clearance of BF product under the Memorial Day pretext.

That sale had actually been going on all month; I know because I eyed the Armored Artillery Battery at 25% off many a time. Ended up not really being (much) of a sale though because of shipping wiping out the savings compared to my normal source who'd get them here faster. Seems more like a general clearance they were doing for a while. What will be interesting to see is if they are dropping the line entirely, or going to special order only. If you can swing by the store at some point and ask, it'd be interesting to know; a store closer to me did a clear-out of their FoW stock about a year ago, but they still advertise the range on their webstore.

While not evidence of "struggling" per se, BF has been dropped by a lot of stores of late (~past 2 years) and that's certainly not a good thing. I believe that's independent of Dust and more of mundane business. In addition to things outline previously, BF has struggled to keep certain popular SKUs in stock in that time. The range itself is enormous, which makes it hard to stock completely in the first place without tying up vast sums of store capital for what remains a niche product even in the niche market of wargaming. Online retailers tend not to like to have to wait weeks+ on orders, because it holds up shipping and makes customers angry in the Internet era; I suspect that's why Miniature Market parted ways with BF years ago. Personally, I had one order with a store take nearly a month to be shipped because of a single blister. Another order was held up because BF failed to put the store's explicitly-requested and confirmed blister in the box, but they got all the stuff for Barbarossa in there just fine. Deal with enough of those incidents and as a store owner you're going to get sick and tired of the company really fast independent of any other drama (if you're involved with that drama too? Yeah...).

Now, if that's the case and they don't get their logistics together and make a concerted effort to woo back some stores they could very easily end up out in the cold.

Battlefront just posted that they're looking for freelance sculptors:

Freelance Sculptors Required
both Digital and Hand disciplines

We are looking for talented sculptors in a variety of scales, as we have some big projects in the pipeline and our in-house team will not be able to cope alone with what we have coming. We are looking for people with skills in the following areas:

◾15mm / 30mm / 75mm
◾Fantasy and Sci-fi miniature ranges
◾Licensed board games
◾In-house miniature ranges
◾Collectables and busts.

If you are interested, please email matt.parkes@battlefront.co.nz with your CV and examples of your work, or links to a portfolio.

If they're struggling, they're doing a good job at hiding it

 Krinsath wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 eddieazrael wrote:
Heard an unfortunate rumour in my FLGS yesterday that Battlefront was struggling to pay bills due to the DUST saga, and so a number of retailers were refusing to stock FoW any more - anyone else experienced this?

For Memorial Day Weekend, Brookhurst Hobbies ran a Flames of War (only) sale.

I swung by Brookhurst Hobbies on Monday, and the pickings were kinda slim - nothing particularly attractive that I wanted to buy. No Open Fire! base sets of any sort, and very little other stuff.

No sales on PSC (which I actually wanted), Peter Pig, Warlord Bolt Action, Dragon, Tamiya or any other WW2 / WW1 / ACW / RW stuff. Just Flames of War on sale.

I'm not surprised that word has gotten out, and suspect that BH was doing a pre-clearance of BF product under the Memorial Day pretext.

That sale had actually been going on all month;

Seems more like a general clearance they were doing for a while. What will be interesting to see is if they are dropping the line entirely, or going to special order only.

If you can swing by the store at some point and ask, it'd be interesting to know;

I wasn't aware it was a month-long thing.

BH had a *lot* more BF FoW product back in November, during their Black Friday sale. A lot of the line does not move very well - they still have a lot of the early blisters sitting on pegs.

I just pop by from time to time; over the weekend, I needed styrene tubing for my Shadowsword project. I'll swing by at some point in a few weeks to see if they actually put capital into restock.

My, not so local, FLGS has had a 4 foot section of shelf space with Battlefront stuff on 50% off for a few months now, but I think that's due to saturation for that particular community in terms of WWII 15mm. There is some PSC, but not that much. Certainly not as much as Bolt Action and Saga have.

I must admit that I've been wondering...

The stock supply problem has been going on for quite a while now. And that might have served to alienate some stores and customers. Sucks to have that many products out of stock.

And now they seem to be going full steam ahead... Yes, it seems to be a good thing, but I still wonder...

I'm kinda reminded of Games Workshop, continually accelerating their release schedule to keep the cash flowing. If Battlefront was in a good spot, I'd say that now would be a good time to go back and make sure that early and mid war was brought up to v3 standard. But instead of doing that, they're forging ahead with new games and new periods.

I would guess that they've been harder pressed by their competitors than they'd like to admit. In all honesty, they began switching to plastic way too late, and now they have to struggle really hard against competitors offering core units at lower price and better quality.

I think the problem they have with redoing mid war is this - it'll make them no money. There are no models that they dont already have so all you're doing is plastics, but which ones? I think they're being sensible expanding away from ww2

Redoing midwar is actually conversion from expensive resin/metal to less-expensive plastic. Except there are lots of alternatives like PSC skimming the cream off the generic 15mm space.

 Reaver83 wrote:
I think the problem they have with redoing mid war is this - it'll make them no money. There are no models that they dont already have so all you're doing is plastics, but which ones? I think they're being sensible expanding away from ww2

Agreed.

Question is: how much will it cost them to not redo early and mid war?

Personally, I couldn't care less about the Isreal / Arab conflict or Vietnam. And truth to be told, I'm getting a bit tired of all the special rules and big toys in late war too. So by not going back and redoing the earlier periods, they're actually in the process of loosing me as a customer.

And I know I'm not the only one feeling like that. But how many are we? Don't know... Perhaps there're so few of us that early and mid war are effectively dead?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Redoing midwar is actually conversion from expensive resin/metal to less-expensive plastic. Except there are lots of alternatives like PSC skimming the cream off the generic 15mm space.

Yeah...

They really did miss the bus on that one. They should have begun the shift to plastics a long time ago, but they kept on with the resin / metal and so allowed others to muscle in on their marked.

I'm surprised you say ew is dead, with rising sun/Barbarossa/Barbarossa digital it's become ever more popular - the UK this year has had more and bigger ew tournaments than ever - I think this years ETC being EW helps too. I think a points adjust for blitzkrieg etc would be nice but even then the books have immensely viable lists people are playing.

MW is another beast to me - some tournament players in the UK want MW left alone as it is so 'balanced' by few lists and fewer special rules. Others say it needs a ground up reboot and rebalance (no one uses Panzers as they're too expensive)

I would rather they take their time and do it right. I'm not for Vietnam but like AIW for the tanks

I think it depends very much on the local meta. Around here, despite having recently having had a small early war one-day tournament, everyone plays late war. Early and mid war is as good as dead.

That is to say... The armies are probably out there. But when meeting for gaming, it seems to always default to late war gaming.

Battlefront carries a fair bit of the blame for that, I would say. They keep on pushing late war books and models, while leaving the rest floundering in the dark.

Yes, we did recently get Barbarossa. A rather slim book with what seems to be some serious internal balance issues. And nothing in the way of the special companies seen in late war. But plenty of DLC... :-(

And the rest of the early war books are little better. Blitzkrieg, in particular, really need to be looked at.

Just my opinion, of course...

Mid war is a bit strange. Yes, many of us would like to see it left alone. And yes, it's mainly because we don't want it to get the huge amount of special rules that have infected late war. But on the other hand, it's somewhat lacking in variety and the balance is a bit off.

But yeah... With a bit of luck, ETC will bring some much needed attention to the earlier parts of the war.

As for taking their time, I fully agree. However, when looking at their plans for the next year, you might be struck by the complete absence of anything going on in early or mid war.

Why?

Instead of continually branching out into smaller branches that will, by their very nature, have a limited audience, why not fix the issues with their core products instead?

That's why I said that I've been wondering. Continually churning out new products, rather than taking care of your core business, tends to be a bad sign. It doesn't have to be, but... Well... Given what's been going on lately and the rumours floating around on the internet, one has to wonder.

I think you may be suffering more from your local area not liking EW, I think battlefront have done a great job pushing EW it's the first era complete! I'm also a big fan of the digital lists, I have no interest in Hungarian/Slovaks in EW, but I do for Finns, being able just to get what I want seems a win to me.

The biggest problem EW (and all periods to some degree) is the technology jump, 1939 vs 1941 is a huge jump, Brits French etc would have no answer for a KV, likewise in MW the desert has less 'good' lists than the eastern front. I think personally you just theme events, have it 'eastern front' or 'desert' because that was you get a far fairer battle - the books in themselves are well balanced, it's just the advent of t34's etc (which historically happened and were tough as nails initially) which has made blitzkrieg etc a little under powered.

I would say though there are some rad too tournament lists, French mech, div cav, Rommel and Czech 38t's, Polish cav - all great lists which still can win tournaments. (Polish cav won Art of war - biggest UK ew tournament)

I think they need to expand as lots of older players have their 'panzer III' why would they want a plastic one? Updating areas and opening new ones is not mutually exclusive.

The last word on Mid-War is that BF knows that it needs to be updated, but isn't sure how to approach the problem. Some revised lists (British, iirc, though I might be misremembering) were posted on the website a while back, but nothing further ever went up.

In the meantime, the books are out of print.

EW has its own issues. Namely, as noted, the technology changes. One of the biggest issues that this has created is absurdly expensive artillery (because it has the best AT values). I'm not sure how you fix the problems it has.

And as for the LW focus... a lot of that is player driven. A lot of players - particularly the new ones - want the big tanks. And that means that they gravitate toward LW.

The change in technology is inevitable. And early war isn't the only place this is seen - mid war also has some pretty big issues with the '42 / '43 gap on the eastern front.

Personally, I've long advocated that Battlefront ditched the idea of periods and instead went with campaigns. That would keep the technology much more in check. It would reduce the cross-book compatibility, yes, but I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't mix books anyway - for both historical reasons and to keep the balance intact. Barbarossa, in particular, seems to have screwed up early war pretty badly...

As for late war, I won't argue with what you're saying, 'cause it's true, but I would argue that it's a nasty spiral that's driven by both sides. The players asked, so Battlefront delivered. The players played what they had models for and asked for more. So Battlefront delivered. The players kept on playing what Battlefront made and so on and so forth.

So we're seeing a situation now where late war is not just popular, it's close to being the only viable period to play for new players as the other periods have been neglected for a long time, both book- and model-wise.

Mid-War does have some technology issues. But they're nowhere near as pronounced as they are in Early War.

I'd disagree - I think almost every list at every MW event I've gone to is 1943