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Because it's looking like that's what's needed

1 chaplain, 1 captain, 6 TAC squads, 2 dev squads, and 2 assault squads gets you 10 free razorbacks in the new codex.

Oh and they get the new company tactical doctrines

And new buffed chapter tactics

And everything gets objective secured.

Can't wait to play against this with my orks, my 2000 point army against 2000+1250 points of free razorbacks.

So... what does this have to do with Necrons again?

Also, you are basing all this over rumors. Typical knee-jerk reaction: "New codex coming out! My army is dooooooomed!"

I don't think you'll have much to worry about. They are still just Space Marines, the most bland army in the game.

I can see it now, the Living tide dataslate formation becomes a Decurion esque formation.

If you kill anything it immediately re-enters ongoing reserves. No matter if it's a termagant brood or a Heirophant. Everything has objective secured and you get a free tervigon with every troop choice that never runs out of termagants. Then everyone can get free biomorphs because screw you.

It'd be fitting with the general trend of the game.

Necrons, Eldar and SMs all get the decurion-style detachment, which puts them head and shoulders above any army that doesn't have it.

You can deal with

-unkillable Necron hordes and wraiths.

-lightning fast Eldar with every unit getting 6" JSJ and unlimited busted wraithknights

-and now, 50 points of free razorback for every 75 points of marine in the full company.

-Honorable mention to 1000 free points of skitarii AdMech and knight upgrades for a 2000pt list.

Formationhammer is a completely different game than Warhammer at this point, and we just gotta sit tight until it's our turn to receive a busted decurion.

 Tamwulf wrote:
So... what does this have to do with Necrons again?

Also, you are basing all this over rumors. Typical knee-jerk reaction: "New codex coming out! My army is dooooooomed!"

I don't think you'll have much to worry about. They are still just Space Marines, the most bland army in the game.

Necron was the first codex that got the ridiculous power-spike. Everything after that has followed the trend of getting very powerful formations. So, everything pre-Necron is one game and everything post-Necron is another game.

Wasn't so hard, was it?

Well... that's only a part of the story...

PRE-titans and POST-titans is at least as big a difference as formations IMO.

Do people really think that Knights had that much of an impact on the game?

the_scotsman wrote:Honorable mention to 1000 free points of skitarii AdMech and knight upgrades for a 2000pt list.

What are you doing to get 1000 points worth of upgrades?

Genuinely curious, as Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus upgrades are on the fairly low side(with the exception of Skitarii weapons that aren't Arc Rifles).

 Tamwulf wrote:
So... what does this have to do with Necrons again?

The Necron codex, released in February 2015, was the last main faction to be updated from black&white 4th/5th edition paperback to full-color hardback format.

Even if it was the first codex to feature the decurion style alternate force organization, it still was the last codex needed to complete the first hardback cycle, and thus many players might be seeing it at the last thing to get to have a "codex cycle" completed by GW.

Ofc this is pretty wonky since about halfway into the 1st hardback cycle, the game transitioned from 6th to 7th edition and the codexes changed their internal layouts quite a bit (going from artwork to photographs and creating the lord of war slot), and then once more, beginning with the Necron dex to include the decurion formations.

Nope.

Listen, the rise of Formations/Detachments in Warhammer 40k was plain for everyone to see. Remember back when 7th edition first dropped and people were wondering why the standard Force Organization Chart was now a "Combined Arms Detachment"? This is why. Formations and alternate Force Org Charts were coming to 40k.

My personal theory was that the GW design team was experimenting with this in small doses with the earlier 7th edition releases, and then with that success decided to go all the way with the Necron codex, and introducing an entirely new way to build an army.

Let's also seriously take a look at these new Formations-of-formations. The Decurion is probably the most powerful, but excluding Wraiths is balanced. The Khorne Daemonkin Slaughtercult fundamentally ties into the Blood Tithe system. Believe it or not, the Warhost is not one of the broken things in the Eldar codex. Free upgrades sounds broken in the combined Mechanicus formation, until you look at the mandatory units you take with it.

And really, how many Space Marine players fielded Captains with the last codex? Devastators? Assault Squads? Let's also not forget that, according to many on this website, Tac Marines suck. GW really had no other way to go to make these units more viable on the tabletop, short of buffing them to movie marine levels. Let's also remember that while the METAL BOXES are free, their upgrades are not.

TL;DR formations are here to stay, it's a L2P issue, and with GW's release schedule your army will get one soon too.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
METAL BOXES

It's METAL BAWKSES, git rekt skrublord.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Nope.

Listen, the rise of Formations/Detachments in Warhammer 40k was plain for everyone to see. Remember back when 7th edition first dropped and people were wondering why the standard Force Organization Chart was now a "Combined Arms Detachment"? This is why. Formations and alternate Force Org Charts were coming to 40k.

My personal theory was that the GW design team was experimenting with this in small doses with the earlier 7th edition releases, and then with that success decided to go all the way with the Necron codex, and introducing an entirely new way to build an army.

Let's also seriously take a look at these new Formations-of-formations. The Decurion is probably the most powerful, but excluding Wraiths is balanced. The Khorne Daemonkin Slaughtercult fundamentally ties into the Blood Tithe system. Believe it or not, the Warhost is not one of the broken things in the Eldar codex. Free upgrades sounds broken in the combined Mechanicus formation, until you look at the mandatory units you take with it.

And really, how many Space Marine players fielded Captains with the last codex? Devastators? Assault Squads? Let's also not forget that, according to many on this website, Tac Marines suck. GW really had no other way to go to make these units more viable on the tabletop, short of buffing them to movie marine levels. Let's also remember that while the METAL BOXES are free, their upgrades are not.

TL;DR formations are here to stay, it's a L2P issue, and with GW's release schedule your army will get one soon too.

And the armies with formations are at such a higher powerlevel that splitting it into two "games," one for the haves and one for the have-nots, would make perfect sense. Everything you said is all the reasons why I think facing them against each other is silly.
It's not an L2P issue, it's a "wait for your codex"-issue. By claiming it's L2P I can only assume you've gotten yours.
edit: And I see the sig shows Eldar. What a surprise.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Nope.

Listen, the rise of Formations/Detachments in Warhammer 40k was plain for everyone to see. Remember back when 7th edition first dropped and people were wondering why the standard Force Organization Chart was now a "Combined Arms Detachment"? This is why. Formations and alternate Force Org Charts were coming to 40k.

My personal theory was that the GW design team was experimenting with this in small doses with the earlier 7th edition releases, and then with that success decided to go all the way with the Necron codex, and introducing an entirely new way to build an army.

40k Formations would have been a whole lot cooler if they went about it in the Horus Heresy "Rites of War" style. I.e. you can have access to these nasty special rules, but they will fairly severly restrict the units you can bring.

The Decurion kinda sorta does this, but literally every unit in the codex can be brought inside a Decurion detachment, so not really.

For example, if the Decurion worked differently, and was a restriction like "only units with the Reanimation Protocols special rule may be taken in a Decurion detachment", I doubt most people would have reacted so negatively to it.


Oh well...I'm wishlisting on a train that has already left the station.

 Purifier wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Nope.

Listen, the rise of Formations/Detachments in Warhammer 40k was plain for everyone to see. Remember back when 7th edition first dropped and people were wondering why the standard Force Organization Chart was now a "Combined Arms Detachment"? This is why. Formations and alternate Force Org Charts were coming to 40k.

My personal theory was that the GW design team was experimenting with this in small doses with the earlier 7th edition releases, and then with that success decided to go all the way with the Necron codex, and introducing an entirely new way to build an army.

Let's also seriously take a look at these new Formations-of-formations. The Decurion is probably the most powerful, but excluding Wraiths is balanced. The Khorne Daemonkin Slaughtercult fundamentally ties into the Blood Tithe system. Believe it or not, the Warhost is not one of the broken things in the Eldar codex. Free upgrades sounds broken in the combined Mechanicus formation, until you look at the mandatory units you take with it.

And really, how many Space Marine players fielded Captains with the last codex? Devastators? Assault Squads? Let's also not forget that, according to many on this website, Tac Marines suck. GW really had no other way to go to make these units more viable on the tabletop, short of buffing them to movie marine levels. Let's also remember that while the METAL BOXES are free, their upgrades are not.

TL;DR formations are here to stay, it's a L2P issue, and with GW's release schedule your army will get one soon too.

And the armies with formations are at such a higher powerlevel that splitting it into two "games," one for the haves and one for the have-nots, would make perfect sense. Everything you said is all the reasons why I think facing them against each other is silly.
It's not an L2P issue, it's a "wait for your codex"-issue. By claiming it's L2P I can only assume you've gotten yours.
edit: And I see the sig shows Eldar. What a surprise.

Yes, I have gotten mine, with the massive stigma that being an Eldar player carries. Fortunately, I don't use the broken units. Trust me, space elves are more than strong enough without them.

Now, with the new Space Marine codex, the majority of players will have gotten one of the new Formation-of-formations. So they don't get to complain anymore.

The only armies that have really been left in the dust in terms of power are the ones that were already underpowered (Sisters, CSM, Dark Angels, Orks). Funnily enough, there are rumors that three of those might be updated soon...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
METAL BOXES

It's METAL BAWKSES, git rekt skrublord.

That's the loyalist pronunciation. Everyone else says MEEEEEEEEEEEEEETAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOXEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES.

Space wolves, blood angels, inquisition, dark Eldar....

You know it's funny how many armies there are in the game when you just choose to ignore everything you don't play and say "L2P" when you have the single most universally broken army in the game.

I wouldn't say this is necessary, most armies can still hold their own against eldar/necrons etc so far. Admittedly the new kind of formation can be a fair bit stronger than some of the older books, but there doesn't seem to be a massive gap between the two types

the_scotsman wrote:
Space wolves, blood angels, inquisition, dark Eldar....

You know it's funny how many armies there are in the game when you just choose to ignore everything you don't play and say "L2P" when you have the single most universally broken army in the game.

Imperial Guard, Daemons, Tau.

The formation thing is simply to sell models that no-one wanted before. I imagine there is a warehouse full of razorback upgrade sprues circa 2002 somewhere and it needs shifting.

The power spike is unfortunate, for a while there back in the previous edition things looked hopefully level but it was never going to last long. However I don't really play tournament or pick-up games where people are simply looking to beat my face and call me up on every slip-up!

the_scotsman wrote:
Space wolves, blood angels, inquisition, dark Eldar....

You know it's funny how many armies there are in the game when you just choose to ignore everything you don't play and say "L2P" when you have the single most universally broken army in the game.

How many times do I have to explain this? Eldar have broken units. As an army, however, they are hardly overpowered or broken. Anyone who's complaining about Aspect Warriors really does need to L2P. If this keeps up, I might just have to change my signature to something that will decrease my credibility even more!

The main problem is, as it almost always is, GW. Their rapid release schedule has, as an unintended consequence, not allowed for there to be any sort of "cooling off" period where people can try and figure out how to deal with the shift in the meta the latest codex has caused. We have had six new codexes in the past six months or so. By previous standards, that's insane!

I wonder if this means that Dark Angels will actually be a much more powerful army to field and a heck of a lot more competitive when they get their book. I really hope so, those shady dudes need some time in the spotlight.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Space wolves, blood angels, inquisition, dark Eldar....

You know it's funny how many armies there are in the game when you just choose to ignore everything you don't play and say "L2P" when you have the single most universally broken army in the game.

How many times do I have to explain this? Eldar have broken units. As an army, however, they are hardly overpowered or broken. Anyone who's complaining about Aspect Warriors really does need to L2P. If this keeps up, I might just have to change my signature to something that will decrease my credibility even more!

Nobody has really been clamoring about "Aspect Warriors" as a whole. There have been issues with certain ones(Dark Reapers and Swooping Hawks off the top of my head), but the main focus has been on the fact that ranged D-Weaponry is no longer an Apocalypse thing.

Remember how when Knights was getting redone, there was an insistence by Eldar players that they "only got ranged D-Weaponry because Imperial Knights were going to get it too"? That didn't pan out.

In an edition already pretty hostile to non-skimmer/flying or superheavy vehicles, it got even MORE hostile towards them with the Eldar book.

The main problem is, as it almost always is, GW. Their rapid release schedule has, as an unintended consequence, not allowed for there to be any sort of "cooling off" period where people can try and figure out how to deal with the shift in the meta the latest codex has caused. We have had six new codexes in the past six months or so. By previous standards, that's insane!

Many of those "six new codices" weren't that big of a deal.

Ranged D-Weaponry that is relatively cheap and relatively easy to utilize(such as WWP Wraithguard) is a BIG shift, no matter how you try to play it off.

So at this point should we just split pre and post Necron codexes into two different games?

Or we could just wait until the rest of the codicies get updated which is very likely (easily) by the end of 2015 and then assess the lay of the land / meta game?

There have always always been codicies that have been "left behind" with release schedules. This is no different whatsoever. The only positive point this time is that GW actually seem to be belting out releases quite quickly so likely it will balance out.

Then we'll get 8th

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do people really think that Knights had that much of an impact on the game?

the_scotsman wrote:Honorable mention to 1000 free points of skitarii AdMech and knight upgrades for a 2000pt list.

What are you doing to get 1000 points worth of upgrades?

Genuinely curious, as Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus upgrades are on the fairly low side(with the exception of Skitarii weapons that aren't Arc Rifles).

1000 points seems fairly accurate. With the War Convocation you are literally getting 600 free points of upgrades, you are also getting a no hot on plasma upgrade, Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule on generally 8 units (probably worth 20 points/unit) at 2K, and Scout/Crusader on your 6 skitarri unit. So all in all its like 600 + 160 + lets say 60 to ignore plasma on your army (of course you probably are only taking plasma on vanguards, but other models have the option) and then scout/crusader which is worth like what 10-15 points? so another 70-100 for a grand total of roughly 900-1000 points between literal free points and special rules. There is also this leadership thing from the maniple as well, but its most irrelevant.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Many of those "six new codices" weren't that big of a deal.

Ranged D-Weaponry that is relatively cheap and relatively easy to utilize(such as WWP Wraithguard) is a BIG shift, no matter how you try to play it off.

Which is why I'm not defending ranged D. That and Scatbikers and a criminally undercosted GC are the biggest problems with the Eldar codex. Which is why those particular parts need to be FAQed/house-ruled out (1 in 3 can take a cannon, Distort weapons use 6th ed. rules, ban the Wraithknight) so that Eldar have something resembling balance against other armies.

Honestly, I really like the new "Decurion-style" force org chart. It makes list building that much more interesting compared to the bland old CAD.

SilverSaint wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do people really think that Knights had that much of an impact on the game?

the_scotsman wrote:Honorable mention to 1000 free points of skitarii AdMech and knight upgrades for a 2000pt list.

What are you doing to get 1000 points worth of upgrades?

Genuinely curious, as Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus upgrades are on the fairly low side(with the exception of Skitarii weapons that aren't Arc Rifles).

1000 points seems fairly accurate. With the War Convocation you are literally getting 600 free points of upgrades, you are also getting a no hot on plasma upgrade, Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule on generally 8 units (probably worth 20 points/unit) at 2K, and Scout/Crusader on your 6 skitarri unit. So all in all its like 600 + 160 + lets say 60 to ignore plasma on your army (of course you probably are only taking plasma on vanguards, but other models have the option) and then scout/crusader which is worth like what 10-15 points? so another 70-100 for a grand total of roughly 900-1000 points between literal free points and special rules. There is also this leadership thing from the maniple as well, but its most irrelevant.

So you're slapping points costs on the USRs and Canticles...?

By the way--Plasma Culverin are the base option on Kataphron Destroyers, which is likely why you have the "no gets hot". To encourage Plasma Culverin instead of Heavy Grav Cannons.

I think a thread needs to be made suggesting ideas to give the other races Decurion style formations at least until the hopeful day comes that some external balance is made.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you're slapping points costs on the USRs and Canticles...?

By the way--Plasma Culverin are the base option on Kataphron Destroyers, which is likely why you have the "no gets hot". To encourage Plasma Culverin instead of Heavy Grav Cannons.

I didn't post that original amount, just giving you an idea how he got to the 1000 points. Compared to a CAD based armies his 1000 points was fairly accurate on the higher end in bonuses, but this seems to be the nature of the game now days with formations that armies just get inherent point bonuses either in literal points or in special rules hence the entire OP.

SilverSaint wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you're slapping points costs on the USRs and Canticles...?

By the way--Plasma Culverin are the base option on Kataphron Destroyers, which is likely why you have the "no gets hot". To encourage Plasma Culverin instead of Heavy Grav Cannons.

I didn't post that original amount, just giving you an idea how he got to the 1000 points. Compared to a CAD based armies his 1000 points was fairly accurate in bonuses, but this seems to be the nature of the game now days with formations that armies just get inherent point bonuses either in literal points or in special rules hence the entire OP.

I'm having a hard time of reaching "1000 points" of upgrades using the criteria being put forward, but sure. Why not.

 Slaphead wrote:
I wonder if this means that Dark Angels will actually be a much more powerful army to field and a heck of a lot more competitive when they get their book. I really hope so, those shady dudes need some time in the spotlight.

My guess is that DA will be SM-1 and the new SM will be SM+1. Just to balance things out.. Oh, and L2P, ok?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Space wolves, blood angels, inquisition, dark Eldar....

You know it's funny how many armies there are in the game when you just choose to ignore everything you don't play and say "L2P" when you have the single most universally broken army in the game.

How many times do I have to explain this? Eldar have broken units. As an army, however, they are hardly overpowered or broken. Anyone who's complaining about Aspect Warriors really does need to L2P.

Lets be real here, we can find some pretty silly things about Aspect Warriors too things like Fire Dragons getting BS5 in formations and a total of +3 on vehicle damage chart, for zero additional points cost, is pretty absurd. They were hardly broken or in need of a buff before, and they simply got massively buffed.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I think a thread needs to be made suggesting ideas to give the other races Decurion style formations at least until the hopeful day comes that some external balance is made.

It's pretty simple... make a rule at your table that everyone plays with a CAD. Disallow all formations. Consider allowing for dual CADs and an Allied Detachment, and keep it at that.

Eldar don't need the Warhost formation. Necrons don't need the Decurion. They won't break if they don't use them.