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So at the end of the month I had planned to invest in Warhammer Fantasy, however with the latest rumours and information (I realise these are rumours), it sounds like Warhammer Fantasy is just going further down hill with low sales and less interest with 40k still on top and doing well.

So the money I was going to invest in Fantasy, I think it would be better invested into a secondary army for my 40K Side, I currently have been playing Space Marines and am enjoying them thoroughly, especially with the new book.

But I would like a secondary army which is non marines to add some variations for my friends and me to play against and with.

I have been looking through the Eldar model range and really like the models and want to start looking into starting Eldar as that secondary army.

So

I have heard that Eldar are currently considered a very cheesy army or powerful army, with that in mind I would like to make it clear I am not a competitive player as such but still like to field a solid list. So is all the hate that I have read on Eldar justified or is it just people over reacting to the current meta etc?.

And continuing on, just any advice you can give to a new Eldar player on what to expect, what units are good choices, fun choices and yh any tips in general for a new player considering Eldar.

Thank you.

My theories:

-Stick to a CAD, no Formations
-If Jetbikes, no more than 1 heavy weapon per 3
-Avoid the WK
-No WWP for Wraithguard


Following those rules, your army will be fairly reasonable.

Bonus round - try not to duplicate any units aside from (foot) Guardians or Dire Avengers. Diverse Eldar armies are more fun for both players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For more advice, that would depend on the type of Eldar army you plan on building. Swordwind? Militia? Windrider Host? Spirit Host? Mechanized?

It is true that Eldar have broken units: Windriders with heavy weapons (Scatbikers) are very undercosted and overpowered. D-weapons are real, and most people won't play against them. The Wraithknight is even more undercosted and overpowered for what it is. However, beyond that, Eldar are an army with excellent internal balance and offer a variety of playstyles on the tabletop.

As has been pointed out before, there are three basic rules when playing Eldar to avoid the cheese:
-Only have 1 in 3 jetbikes take a heavy weapon
-Use the old 6th edition rules for Distort (S10 AP2, 6's to wound/to pen are Instant Death/automatic penetrating hit)
-Avoid the Wraithknight. If you really must use one, either get your opponent's consent or treat it as a Monstrous Creature

Don' t believe the internet: most of our formations are perfectly fine balance-wise. The only ones to avoid outside of competitive play are the Crimson Death (arguably undercosted), the Dire Avenger Host (OP overwatch and shooting), and the ability to take multiple Wraithknights.

Eldar are an army of specialists, with each unit performing a specific task on the battlefield, and prize mobility highly with even out infantry. Resist the temptation to spam Aspect Warriors. This is actually a terrible idea, as having different units to cover all you bases is important, especially with the Aspect Host formation, our most powerful. Again, any more detailed advice is dependent on what kind of Eldar army you want to play.

Thank you for the replies, so far I have not read much of the book, I was mostly going by just the models look wise.

I like the look and have looked over the rules for striking scorpions, are these well used in a eldar army?.

And in general I am open to any units or playstyles, I plan to be able to at least field 1 unit of everything, unless of course there are any units which should be avoided at all costs because they are just plain bad etc.

Cheers

Eldar are great fun. The thing about Eldar that is nice is that the book is so GOOD that it's really hard to take BAD units. You can make almost anything work. This makes it really easy to field the kind of army you WANT to field. You can field a very cool fluffy army and not worry that units are bad.

Striking Scorpions are a lot of fun to use, and they're very good. I like using lots of Aspect Warriors in my list, and Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks are my favorite. Dark Reapers got a very nice boost with the new book, and I'm looking forward to trying them out.

The new book even fixed Howling Banshees, which were the "worst" aspect in the last book. I still don't think they're quite as good as Striking Scorpions. Generally if I had to pick a close-combat unit for Eldar I'd pick either Striking Scorpions or Wraithblades. That being said though, I still don't think Howling Banshees are bad. I haven't personally used them in the new book, so I can't give you personal experience with them.

Honestly you can't go wrong with Eldar. Yes, there are units that are better than others, but just about everything can be fielded well.

My suggestion:
-Pick a troop
-Pick a different one
-Pick an HQ

Then, repeat this as needed:
-See a unit you like? If you don't have it, get one. If you do, move on.

Following that schema should give you a fun and fair lis . Generally speaking, one unit of each thing keeps you from spamming, and unless you excel at picking either terrible or amazing units, will be a fair and fun list.

Scorpions-
Think ASMs. But instead of jetpacks, they're sneaky.

It means they are harder to shoot to death, but a bit squishier in CC. They hit faster though.

Like ASMs, they are bullies, not front-line fighters. Don't expect to wipe out a CC unit, but they can generally take anything an equal ASM squad could.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
the Dire Avenger Host (OP overwatch and shooting), and the ability to take multiple Wraithknights.

There is no such thing as a Dire Avenger Host, not sure where you got that. The only 2 formations that allow Dire Avengers are auxiliary formations, thus not a core which allows multiple WK, and in one, the Aspect Host, you are simply not taking Dire Avengers because they make the formation so much worse compared to the other options. In the other, Dire Avenger Shrine, you are gaining some stuff, but losing obsec is pretty huge and the models die like flies with limited range, T3, and a 4+. Not really sure in what world you think the Dire Avenger Shrine is OP as its definitely far from it.

I'd recommend reading up on the different Craftworlds and picking one. Siam-Hann are the bikes & vyper craftworld, so if you want lots of jetbikes and skimmers, paint 'em red and it'll still be very fluffy and enjoyable to fight against! So long as you don't abuse the ability to take everything with a heavy weapon, then it'll still be quite enjoyable for your opponents. Ulthwe resides close to the Eye of Terror and helps defend against Chaos and Daemons - don't feel bad AT ALL for taking a Warhost with Guardian Defenders and the Seer Council; this is what Ulthwe is, a strong and well coordinated battleforce supported by a large squad of buffing psykers. It's literally their thing. Alaitioc is all about the Snipers, and there are a slew of warlord traits, special characters, and special wargear that further reinforces this style. Biel-tan is the Aspect Warrior Craftworld, so feel free to bring in those Aspect Shrines - even double up on them if you want! Iyaden is the Wraith Craftworld. They used to be "meh" a long time ago, but now are probably the most over-powered one there is. Still, if you like 'em, take 'em.

The nice thing about Eldar is that there are almost no bad units in the book. It's possible to make a coherent list even if you're just grabbing units.

The main thing you want to watch out for is to not buy too many of the same slot type of unit, and then not be able to use them all in an army list. Before your buy, think about whether you can fit your army into a standard Combined Arms Detachment or Warhost Detachment.

To give you an example: if you wouldn't want to buy two full squads of Swooping Hawks and two full squads of Warp Spiders. In both the CAD and the Warhost Detachment, you would have one squad left over that you couldn't legally fit into the list.

I would start by buying a windrider farseer or the winged autarch, and then a couple of squads of windrider jetbikes. That gets you the core of a legal CAD, after which you can add pretty much whatever you want to your army. Be sure not to skimp too much on high strength weapons (so you have the ability to kill vehicles), but otherwise... buy what's cool.

When making an Eldar army first see what/how is your local meta played. If Knights and other super heavies/lords of war are commonly used, there is nothing wrong with running a single wraith knight. If a ton of air is used in your area, there is no problem in running the crimson death formation or other air units as Eldar do have AA problems outside of their own air units. Outside of the wraight knight and air the main thing people complain about is windriders with scatter lasers, but running a few (example 1 troop choice of 6 or just 2 of 3) is pretty minor as these people are more complaining about 20+. There is no reason to ever self nerf to 1 heavy choice per 3 bikes as either you are running none, a few (say 6 or less), or a ton (for a tournament thus why are you nerfing yourself?)

If you really like striking scorpions they are fine, you just run 10, exarch w/ scorpion claw. You can also add in Karandras as your HQ to really add to the unit.

Example TAC list 1000 pts, pretty far from the "cheese" lists people mention, but can fight most lists. The scorpions, with karandras can literally go toe-toe, if not win, vs any melee unit in the game and are excellent vs both elite and horde units. The Hawks are great vs horde armies and dominate vehicles with haywire. Dark reapers are all purpose removal for either vehicles, marines, etc. The windriders are there to mostly be a cheap troop choice that can actually do something (guardians literally are worthless in small numbers and are expensive. rangers are OK, but generally poor. This really leaves windriders for cheap or dire avengers, who are solid, but typically would want a transport making them expensive.

HQ: Karandras

Troops:
2 x 3 Windriders w/ Scatter lasers

Elite:
1 x 10 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch w/ Claw

Aspect Host:
2 x 7 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch (these come 5 + an exarch in a box though and you really want to run 6 models per unit total for grenade pack, but there wasn't anywhere else to add points besides another windrider).
1 x 5 Dark Reapers w/ Starshot missles w/ Exarch


You can do a lot of things with Eldar. Maybe you want more of a mech spam and want to use Fire Prisms, War Walkers, or Wave Serpents. Another idea is taking one of each of the Aspect Warriors. Maybe you want to make a wraith army using spirit seers, wraithblades, some wraithguard and wraith lords. A more melee focused list using the Storm Host and an avatar is interesting. All of these are fine and far from what people complained about.

Ok this has given me some great insight, So basically thr complaints are mostly against like apamming 20 of the bikes and multiple wraith knights etc.

In terms of my meta it varies tbh, I play down at warhammer world and there are varied lists ranging from fun to competitive.

Thank you for all the info and keep it coming .

I will definitely look into the striking scorpions.

Shinzra,

Eldar are great in some ways, and not so wonderful in others.

The best part about them is that like Space Marines, they are a Most Favored Faction by GW. As 'the other original good guys' Eldar are consistently quite playable, reasonably competitive, and not restricted to monobuild. They have a huge number of playable units and models, lots of good synergies, and you probably will get bored of them before you run out of new ways you can expand your army. This is in contrast with Blood Angels or Imperial Guard or even Space Wolves, where sure, there's some good stuff, but a lot of it is junk (from a, "is it good?" perspective, rather than is it fun, or are the models nice).

Eldar also have the best allies of a Xenos army. Dark Eldar, Harlequins and Eldar are all Battle Brothers, and it allows not only some great tactical shenanigans (like using Dark Eldar to teleport your Eldar), but some fantastic modelling opportunities.

If you like the modeling aspect of the hobby, however, there is something of a mixed bag.

For an awful lot of codex entries, GW has neither gotten rid of the entry nor updated the model. The result is that a whole bunch of cool, playable stuff is in finecast or metal, and a lot of the finecast models really aren't that nice. Even some of the plastic models (like Guardians) are pretty lacking, compared to, for example, Dark Eldar or Harlequin counterparts. There are also not a lot of hover-tank variations. Basically, everything has the Wave Serpent body; just add on a different top turret and bottom gun. And maybe the odd prong. If you thought Rhino chassis vehicles were similar, Eldar hover tanks take it to a whole new level. Players mix up falcons and night spinners on the board because they look practically the same.

Some of the models that are great to play are just ancient, like Aspect Warriors. Fire Dragons, for instance, are an ok model, but finecast and monopose (and actually quite expensive). You need to decide if this will bother you, because there's not really any great solution to it. Oh yes, and because they're not plastic, all those models are Web Only items, which means less stock in a store, and some stores won't order it or will charge you full or close to retail for a special order.

On the other hand, there are some absolutely gorgeous models, like Wraithknight, Wraithguard, the new Autarch and Windrider, Hemlock, and so on. And both the allies, DE and Harlequins, have consistently good models.

Oh well, as you can probably tell, I'm a guy who places a high importance on my army looking great on the battlefield as well as being marginally effective

Well, you already got some good replies.

I'd start with a Jetseer or maybe two, one unit of six Windrider Jetbikes, one unit of five FDs in a Serpent, one or two units of DA in Serpents, and three Warwalkers.
This could be the core of a beginners list.
Grab as many scatterlasers as you can get or as many you want.
No experiments with Phoenix Lords and other Aspects.

Thank you again for the replies, In terms of the Farseer on bike, is it better to just buy the actual released farseer on bike or try and convert one?.

^Ignore him. He's had bad experiences with Eldar cheesemongers and now drinks daily doses of the Haterade. Still, this brings up a good point: Eldar have a bad reputation. Don't expect to make friends if you bring the OP units in the codex. But if you don't, then the onus is on your opponent to play around you.

Shinzra wrote:
Thank you again for the replies, In terms of the Farseer on bike, is it better to just buy the actual released farseer on bike or try and convert one?.

Buy the new kit. Converting a Jetseer can be a nightmare.

EDIT: Hmmm, wonder what happened to kburn's post?

Be careful what you do with your Eldar lists. Basically everyone is telling you to just play with the point values of 7th while using the rules for 6th.

In addition Eldar have gotten so much hate that somehow Adeptis Mechanicus flew under the radar.

Well im not to bothered about people not wanting to play, if I come with a balanced list without exploiting the cheese units etc , and someone still wishes to not play, plenty more people to play .

Lots of varied opinions here, so I figure I'll give you another one.

I agree completely, as an Eldar player myself, with a few basic ideas that others have brought up:

1) Windriders: limit yourself to 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes. Yes, you can have a heavy weapon on every bike. But just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you -should-.
2) Don't use the WK. It's a cool model, no doubt, and is incredibly powerful for its points. It's also a model that makes it very easy to anger your opponent. Some people have lost friends over the use of this model. And, it's freakin' expensive $-wise.
3) Limit the number of D-weapons. I know many people who hate Wraithguard, but they are some of your most expensive troops and they have pretty short range. A unit probably won't trigger someone into wanting to put you in a head-lock: several units might. If you DO take units with D-weapons, agree to use the 6th edition rules for them. They're -still- nasty, just not Jerry Springer-nasty.
4) Resist the urge to use allies. The allies chart allows for some of the worst abuse I've ever seen in 40K.

Also, just a couple more of my own opinions that I know some will take exception with....

Eldar have 'specialists' as others have mentioned. With that in mind, they are -not- forgiving. If you screw up with your awesome Toughness of 3 and average Armor of 4+, other armies will eat you for lunch. Resist the urge to think that you are Space Marines - because you're not. They will always have armor equal or better than yours, and their toughness will generally be better than 90% of your army. Someone mentioned Eldar were a 'favored army' of GW - and I distinctly disagree with that opinion (and it is just opinion). Space Marines and their seemingly infinite varieties, have been and always will be GW's clear favorite child. Just get used to that and you'll be fine.

Understand that codex-creep is pretty much inevitable. The latest Marine codex has nice varieties of cheese, as well, but loud voices here and elsewhere like to 'distract' from that by pointing back at the Eldar dex. This is a common tactic on any subject, when negative attention is focused on something we value. 'Yeah, I got cheese, but YOU got more!'. Etc. It's going to happen. You're going to see it, unless you play with an insular group that avoids such issues.

Also understand that there are non-Eldar players out there who hate them - no matter what you bring. A large % of players play human armies, and as such, some of them don't like the idea of Xenos armies that can not only stand up to theirs, but beat them. Every list in the game can be min/maxed for effectiveness, some to more degrees than others. Eldar are given weapons (especially D-Weapons) to off-set their inherent lack of toughness and armor. They've almost always been a 'glass canon' in that regard, and this edition with the bike weapons, WKs, and D-weapons, they might be the most 'canon-like' yet.

If someone whines that they won't play you simply because you play space-elves - that's their problem. Move on and find other more reasonable people to play with. If -you- are reasonable yourself, there's no reason someone shouldn't play with you, but only -you- know just how reasonable you are.

In the end, you mentioned you like the models of the Eldar line. I do too. To me they are the best looking army in the game, which is why I've been collecting them ever since they were released. There's nothing wrong with collecting for aesthetic value. If you think the WK looks cool and you're dying to assemble and paint it... then do it. If you're dying to put an Eldar army on the table - then go for it. But the general consensus you've seen just in this thread will help you to provide a varied opponent for your friends, and avoid sending them into mental-overload.

Enjoy!

I dunno man -- mort has certainly captured some pain points (or at least perceived pain points). While I wouldn't go out of my way to build the cheeriest list ever, I don't think it's fair to yourself to purposely gimp your army by purposely not taking a wraithknight (for example). I mean, if you look at tournament play, this will never happen.

Likewise, I don't think a lot of scatter lasers are the end of the world. The issue is just that some armies have been refreshed to 7.5 with the core-command-auxiliary format, and given new formations that are both fluffy and powerful.

As the books get updated, I'm pretty sure this will be the new norm. So, DA, which is currently universally panned, look like they'll be pretty good in a few days.

If you purposely cripple your army, as more books get updated, you'll just fall further behind, because other players aren't necessarily going to do the same (in fact, the reverse will be true as more and more armies are updated). If you look at people who complain about power levels, they are almost universally IG, Ork, DE and Blood Angels. I'm certain IG will get a new book this year, fixing their issues. And any BA players that want to be competitive ally another army, Olay as a vanilla successor anyhow.

Space Marines, Space Wolves, Grey Knights with vanilla allies, AdMech, Necron, Imperial Knights, and probably Dark Ngels are all golden. They can compete with the best the Eldar can pump out. Tau and IG will get new books soon.

I'm not suggesting you try to put together a hatefully annoying list to play -- just that you should buy and build whatever makes you happy.

Also, don't listen to the people saying to avoid the D. The meta for the entire game is changing. Don't gimp yourself. GW will take care of that for you.

They just released the skyhammer formation that basically completely nullifies all the units you'd have with D weapons by tying them up in melee and/or alpha striking them off the board with grav weapons. Every unit that we have with D weapons is vulnerable to being tied up in melee by cheap chaff units, or outright slaughtered in melee by decent melee oriented units. A formation that let's your opponent deep strike and assault in the same turn handily neuters ranged D.

Further, the Dark Angels book is about to release, and their flyer reportedly has a ranged D weapon that is large blast, which I'm sure we won't hear nearly as much complaining about.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
A formation that let's your opponent deep strike and assault in the same turn handily neuters ranged D.

I see, so because one formation supposedly beats Eldar D-spam it's ok, and we'll just conveniently ignore all the armies that don't have turn-1 deep strike + assault?

kburn wrote:
No offence, but I wouldn't play you regardless of list.

Starts off his first sentence in the thread with "No offense, but...", then proceeds to continuously abuse the OP and everyone else playing Eldar for rules they didn't write and tries to encourage others to ostracize them. Sounds legit.

Just shut up and go paint your fething toys, Jesus Christ. Ask your mom for a milk or something, might help you calm down.

kburn wrote:
Enjoy your gameless Sunday afternoons, or your elf vs elf battles. No one deserves to play against you.

The only one having gameless afternoons is probably going to be you, with that attitude. Or is that why you're venting here about Eldar in the first place?

If you want to play a list with a bunch of scatter laser jet bikes, do it. Don't let the internet discourage you from using strong units just because a few people are getting tears in their neck beard.

If you like the awaken model, buy one.

If you like the wraith models, buy them too.

Don't let what other people think of what you would enjoy discourage you. The new codices are being bumped up in power level, and the most common army, Space marines, just got a buff. Ad mech is stupid good. Necrons are really good.

If you are really concerned, ask the people you play with regularly. They will be the ones you play against, not us.

Thank you again for all the tips and information on eldar, You have all been very helpful.

 Talys wrote:
I dunno man -- mort has certainly captured some pain points (or at least perceived pain points). While I wouldn't go out of my way to build the cheeriest list ever, I don't think it's fair to yourself to purposely gimp your army by purposely not taking a wraithknight (for example). I mean, if you look at tournament play, this will never happen.

Likewise, I don't think a lot of scatter lasers are the end of the world. The issue is just that some armies have been refreshed to 7.5 with the core-command-auxiliary format, and given new formations that are both fluffy and powerful.

.

OH!

If he's going for a tournament list... well... do the -exact opposite- of what people are suggesting in this thread. Load up WK's and D. Load up scatter-bikes - as many as you can buy/paint/find. Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women. Let the cries of cheese wash off your back - if you're following your codex and are playing by the rules - they should take their cheese and wine to GW directly.

Tournament play is a -totally- different animal than casual play. At least to me it is. Tournament play = WAAC. Go for the throat. No Mercy. Table-turn-2. It's the height of competitive play (usually with prizes/incentives that go beyond simple 'having fun' involved), and as such, most people I've played against in tournaments put 'play to win at all costs' a little big higher than 'play to have fun' on the priority list. Of course, for -some- of those folks, 'playing to win at all costs' IS 'having fun'. So your mileage may vary.

Crazyterran makes a really good point - if you have a regular group of friends that you play with, have an honest chat with them. Their opinions matter a LOT more than ours.

Im not really aiming for any tournament based list, maybe in the future if I decide to try the tournaments out, aiming for more of a balanced but strong list with trying some fun units out.

But thank you to all, I have had plenty of great feedback here

 Mort wrote:
LOT more than ours.

Yeah, for sure

It's all really fine and good for a bunch of us to say, "Play what you want!" or "Don't play that!" -- but the people you'll play with are the ones that you need to have fun with, and the practical matter is that if your army makes it really annoying, un-fun, or repetitive for them, you'll probably end up switching it up anyhow. No different than them!

Yh, my friends will be fine with the eldar, and thank you for all the comments, I have a great deal of new information for me to read through and consider.

Cheers all.

So I have purchased 3 Eldar War Walkers, I have a question regarding which in general is the best loadout for them?.

Cheers

Scatter lasers.

They've almost always been a 'glass canon' in that regard, and this edition with the bike weapons, WKs, and D-weapons, they might be the most 'canon-like' yet.

So those 2ed exarchs that were soloing 1500pts armies, super skimers of 4th , unkillable t8 wright lords or the serpents never existed? Eldar were never a glass cannon army. In fact they are probably one of the most resilient armies ever.


Forgot the ++2 invunerable with re-rolls beast star, to add to the glass cannon eldar armies.