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I'm primarily a historical gamer, lots of hail caesar, lots of DBA. I play WHFB with my gaming club, but with the coming of the age of sigmar, it seems that my gaming group is thinning. Coupled with my recent move, I now only have a handful of people to play Warhammer with, and 0 people to play my historical games with.
there is a thriving warmahordes community in my region, but I'm debating getting into it.
I like tactical depth, which doesn't seem very present in warmahordes (from my admittedly narrow exposure to the system) it appears to be a March forward, run to the middle 40k type game...
I could be completely wrong.
I like the aesthetic of both games, but am concerned about the rules, and afraid to drop any money on a game I'm not sure I will like.
could somebody clear up some of my (possible) misconceptions about the game?
Maybe give me a rundown of what to expect?
Let me know

Thanks

 Redbad wrote:
I'm primarily a historical gamer, lots of hail caesar, lots of DBA. I play WHFB with my gaming club, but with the coming of the age of sigmar, it seems that my gaming group is thinning. Coupled with my recent move, I now only have a handful of people to play Warhammer with, and 0 people to play my historical games with.
there is a thriving warmahordes community in my region, but I'm debating getting into it.
I like tactical depth, which doesn't seem very present in warmahordes (from my admittedly narrow exposure to the system) it appears to be a March forward, run to the middle 40k type game...
I could be completely wrong.
I like the aesthetic of both games, but am concerned about the rules, and afraid to drop any money on a game I'm not sure I will like.
could somebody clear up some of my (possible) misconceptions about the game?
Maybe give me a rundown of what to expect?
Let me know

Thanks

It's a great game, and well worth getting into. It's different to hail Caesar though.

For what it's worth, you are completely in the wrong with regard to the comment about tactical depth. the march to the middle is partially true,cut thst doesn't mean it's not tactical, especially when your comparison is 40k. It's like saying boxing isn't a tactical game because it's not in a big field where you can kick a ball around and dismissing how they move around a small square. Like boxing, it is a game of inches, and deceptive depth. Sure, It involves a push to the centre to contest for objectives, to promote an aggressive style of play, and to prevent castling, and gunlines, which are quite boring. But it is a game where that positioning and movement matter a great deal.cbeing an inch out can win or lose you a game. The smallest things matter. You can't just rely on 'that' build to win - everything has its counter and everything can be built into a game winning strategy. It is a game of synnergies and clever trickery.

You have range, melee, control/denial, attrition, Tarpitting, alphastrikes, beta strikes, feints, manoeuvre, shenanigans, and out and out skullduggery. And to be fair, it is an excellently written rules set (clear and precise, no grey areas or ambiguities) with very solid balance, great cariety, great fluff and pretty models.

What to expect? Expect to lose, frankly. Expect to lose your first dozen games. It has a very high learning curve and it will rake a while until things start to click, but when they do, and you can see the depth of the game, it's a great moment. It means when you win, it's because you outplayed and out thought tge other guy, you didn't just take a netlist from the most recent codex.

In terms of money - don't think its limit 40k with a crazy up from cost. Buy a Battle box, find a pressganger and get some games in, see if it's something you like. If it is, great - think about expanding. Try and look into something like an escalation league from there.

If you have a Triving wmhrd comunity you may as well ask for a speed demo.

As well IIRC there is a free quick play pdf on line that can help understand it a bit.

I just jumped head first into a 35 point list . came out to about 230$

Thanks for the long reply!

I was worried that it was a game that (like 40k) had no depth. I like games with lots of depth.
in the few videos I have watched, it just looked like everything running up the middle, with lots of dice rolling.
The biggest draw for me was the models, I love the way the models look.
I was just apprehensive about the game as a whole.
I'll try to contact somebody about the game, and see if they will give me a demo.
thanks
austin

 Redbad wrote:
Thanks for the long reply!

I was worried that it was a game that (like 40k) had no depth. I like games with lots of depth.
in the few videos I have watched, it just looked like everything running up the middle, with lots of dice rolling.
The biggest draw for me was the models, I love the way the models look.
I was just apprehensive about the game as a whole.
I'll try to contact somebody about the game, and see if they will give me a demo.
thanks
austin

Yeah, no offense, but if you were to watch a video of hail Caesar you'd see exactly the same... Or else they'd March to the other side of the board, and roll lots of dice...

If you don't follow boxing, and watch it on tv, a Match is two brutes punching each other. When you follow boxing,byou see the clever combos, you see the difference between the outfighters and the in fighters and the brawlers, how they move and feint, hoe they counter and attack, the footwork, the defensive stances and so on...

Playing table top wargames and watching them on YouTube are two completely different things and are, in my mind,all but incompatible. Especially when you don't know what's going on... I'd rather watch paint dry.

The models are great, generally. The plastics are questionable at times, but quality is improving. The lore is a hidden gem. The game is great. But it's obviously a fame first, rather than a reenactment tool.
It's less simulation, and more arcade setting with over the top violence. Think less Starcraft and more street fighter.

honest thoughts? Jump right in. Warmachine is the game that made me fall in love with wargaming again.

No offense taken!
I completely understand.
valid criticisms made.

I will just have to jump right in and see what it is all about.

Thanks
austin

 Redbad wrote:
No offense taken!
I completely understand.
valid criticisms made.

I will just have to jump right in and see what it is all about.

Thanks
austin

Watching a video just isn't quite the same. You don't really see or understand why that unit of Storm Blades are running up the board until eStryker pops his feat, and the Stormbaldes move again and attack.

You don't get why that warjack with two open fists has three focus on it... until it picks up an enemy warjack and throws it away into the opposing warcaster.

Why is his entire army moving into that zone on the table? Oh, because it's the objective of the scenario they are playing.

I've had much the same reaction from people that have never played the game but watched it in action. They say things like "All the models just run towards the middle" and "they roll a lot of dice, but I don't see much happening..." When I sit down and play a game or two with them and show them a thing or two about the game, the light bulb goes off, and they are hooked. Or it doesn't, and they make such claims like "Well, it's not like that in 40K," or "This game is too shallow for me. I like the strategic and tactical complexity that Warhammer offers...".

Ask around the local game store or community for a Privateer Press Press Ganger. They are the volunteers that show people how to play the game, run events, and in general, hype up all things Privateer Press. They will even bring everything you need to play (models included). Ask for a demo or two, and then make your decision.

Don't confuse the aggressiveness of WMH with a lack of tactical depth, once you understand a bit more about the game you'll be surprised how much you've missed.

Things to expect:
- You'll probably lose a lot to start if people aren't pulling their punches. This is a high skill game with a fairly steep learning curve, and 1 positioning error is sometimes all it takes to lose a game. Just have fun and learn from your losses.
- Much like chess, the positioning of your infantry/pawns (once you move beyond battlebox games) can have a greater impact on the outcome of a game than your large, expensive pieces.
- You won't know much about what your opponent's forces can do, so ask to look over their cards before a game, paying particular attention to their warcaster/warlock.
- Everything dies. Even the most durable of units can be taken out in a single turn if you give your opponent the opportunity.
- Expect to find strategies that work well in a "just kill each other" game, such as gunlines, to be less effective once you start playing scenario.

How is khador as a starting faction?

Thanks for the replies so far.

Thanks
Austin


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
No offense taken!
I completely understand.
valid criticisms made.

I will just have to jump right in and see what it is all about.

Thanks
austin

Watching a video just isn't quite the same. You don't really see or understand why that unit of Storm Blades are running up the board until eStryker pops his feat, and the Stormbaldes move again and attack.

You don't get why that warjack with two open fists has three focus on it... until it picks up an enemy warjack and throws it away into the opposing warcaster.

Why is his entire army moving into that zone on the table? Oh, because it's the objective of the scenario they are playing.

I've had much the same reaction from people that have never played the game but watched it in action. They say things like "All the models just run towards the middle" and "they roll a lot of dice, but I don't see much happening..." When I sit down and play a game or two with them and show them a thing or two about the game, the light bulb goes off, and they are hooked. Or it doesn't, and they make such claims like "Well, it's not like that in 40K," or "This game is too shallow for me. I like the strategic and tactical complexity that Warhammer offers...".

Ask around the local game store or community for a Privateer Press Press Ganger. They are the volunteers that show people how to play the game, run events, and in general, hype up all things Privateer Press. They will even bring everything you need to play (models included). Ask for a demo or two, and then make your decision.

On a side note, I'm not a Warhammer elitist.
I have been playing Warhammer for years, but will never parade it as something more than what it is: a clunky niche game with a setting I enjoy. (The fantasy variety, haven't touched 40k since 5th ed)

I much prefer historical games.

 Redbad wrote:
How is khador as a starting faction?

Thanks for the replies so far.

Thanks
Austin

Actually quite good. They're decently straightforward, lots of combined arms with one or two Jacks is generally how they are run, personally I bring a single Spriggen in my lists and a bunch of infantry because they have a lot of great infantry models, Ironfangs are great IMO, Winter Guard are the bread and butter of a lot of lists, it's pretty great.

Khador can do very well. However I will forewarn you Khador is an INFANTRY faction. They do not run multiple warjacks well. usually you have one maybe two.

Their jacks are cool and man -o-war look awesome but neither of these will be taken en mass.

They have multiple flexible lists from the ranged "Winter Guard Death Star" lists to the melee only doom reaver spaming of Butcher 2. But either way infantry is the strength of Khador.

That's not to say Khador doesn't have awesome warjacks, of course. It's just that in general they're rather Focus hungry, not terribly quick without buffs, and Khador's warcasters really would like to use their focus for other things.

Oh yeah sorry. Any faction *can* run jack heavy it's just Khador is not very good at it. Usually 1-2 but they're tough as nails & hit like trucks.

Its because most Khador casters are quite greedy and like to get things done themselves.


This few has changed a little with Warmachine Reckoning (the latest book) because we now have cheap waraxes which we can use.

But infantry is very good in a Khador list, especially infantry that can look after itself without too much external help.

So where does one start with khador then?

I like what I'm hearing about the infantry heavy lists, that's how I like my soviets .

Does khador play like a meatgrinder? Or more reserved?

Thanks
austin

 Redbad wrote:
So where does one start with khador then?

I like what I'm hearing about the infantry heavy lists, that's how I like my soviets .

Does khador play like a meatgrinder? Or more reserved?

Thanks
austin

Well you may want to look to see if you can get one of the all-in-one army boxes for Khador. They released it a few months ago but it was a limited run so finding one online may be hard. http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/starter-products/all-in-one-army-boxes/warmachine-all-in-one-army-box-khador The box is a really good deal and winterguard are really good with eSorscha.

As far as khadors infantry strategy they are more combined arms really. Even though they don't run many jacks they don't just spam out cheap infantry either. I would take a look at this article for more information about play style. https://threediceoverload.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/starting-armies-how-do-the-factions-of-warmachine-play/

I have a question.
what are the letters in front of the casters?
What does that mean?

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:
I have a question.
what are the letters in front of the casters?
What does that mean?

Thanks
Austin

Warmachine has an evolving story so a lot of warcasters have multiple versions to represent the same character at different parts of the story. The rules for the caster are different depending on which version you use. For example they have different spell lists, feats, abilities and sometimes, not always, different gear. They also have different models to represent them on the table.

A short hand way to say which version of the caster you are talking about is to for example say pSorscha for the first version of Sorscha and eSorscha is the second. Some casters have more than two versions in that case numbers are used, like pButcher, Butcher2, Butcher3. pSorscha's full name is Kommander Sorscha and eSorscha's is Forward Kommander Sorscha. So same character fluff wise but different model and rules.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I appreciate it.

Thanks
austin

 Redbad wrote:
So where does one start with khador then?

I like what I'm hearing about the infantry heavy lists, that's how I like my soviets .

Does khador play like a meatgrinder? Or more reserved?

Thanks
austin

It depends on the caster, is the simple answer. And the list too.

Casters like irusk 1 or butcher1 can be described as infantry focused attrition casters, while irusk2 is less focused purely on attrition and more on control/denial and movement/repositioning shenanigans. Then you have blitzkrieg casters like vlad1 or strakhov. Sorscha1 and butcher3 are more akin to super solos where the army grinds and tarpits and exists to to clear th way for the caster to wreak havok. Then you have more specialist casters like vlad3 who is an all round toolbox, but with a cavalry hit and run/multiple alphastrike leaning.

Taking obnoxious hard to remove infantry choices like iron fleshed black dragon pikemen or boomhowlers, or, to an extent, kayazy lets you focus the attrition game. The winter guard are a toolbox unit, and can be chucked into the breach, but are as good hanging back with excellent long range and accurate guns. Then you have the more specialised units like kayazy eliminators and widowmakers snipers that aren't really meatgrinder and prefer to skirmish and hang back than jump into the thick of it...

Khador is my main faction. I've loved them since day1. Khador are the no frills powerhouse faction. In khador, there is no such thing as 'excessive' and the word for 'bigger' is the same as 'better'. Khador is what's described as an 'answers faction'. It's not subtle. It does not ask tricky 'questions', it does not ask 'trick questions'. You'll see it coming a mile off. The question is: can you deal with it before it smashes into you like a freight train. But as an 'answers' faction, khador has plenty answers and lots of variety. It doesn't ask the questions,but it answers them all.

Starrting depends on thew caster. Do you want a melee or ranged infantry heavy army? I assume infantry heavy as "tha'ts how you like your Soviets"


Might I suggest eIrusk with winterguard and kovnik Joe.

eIrusk or eSorscha I'd say.

By the way, once you find a caster you like, stick to it for a while. Keep the same caster for ten or so games until you really get to know them. Outside of maybe p Zerkova, Khador hasn't got any really hard casters, once you get to know the game, then try swapping things around.

Thanks for all the advice.
Both eIrusk and eSorscha look interesting.
If you were to advise a first purchase, what would it be?

If you can find the All in One box for Khador it's pretty damn good and you can just use Sorchsa and the two jacks to learn how to play with some battlebox level games.

Buying a battlebox is never a bad idea to start off with either, they're rarely a fantastic combination of models but they are cheap at only $50 which is an excellent price for a Warcaster and 2 heavy jacks. Maybe grab Irusk2 alongside it so you can swap him in after a few games. I believe both jack chassis in the battlebox can be built into multiple things, so you can magnetise them and buy/trade for the extra parts later on to really get value out of them.

One thing I would recommend before buying anything is finding someone, preferably a pressganger, to give you an intro game.

 Redbad wrote:
Thanks for all the advice.
Both eIrusk and eSorscha look interesting.
If you were to advise a first purchase, what would it be?

Battle box.

Cut your teeth with that and learn the basics. Thrn expand slowly, if you can, via an escalation league. There are a lot of directions to choose from, so it's not like 40k's 'you play [faction x]? build this list to win'.

Don't jump in at the deep end with a 50pt list. This will only lead to you beimg overwhelmed.

Start off small like other people said. Play the battle box for a good ten games just to get a feel then move up to 15 or 20 pts adding a unit to the battle box. Ask a lot of question to your opponent after the game looking for feedback on what you could have done better. Find out when the next journeyman league is going to be played at the shop and sign up. It's a great way to learn the game by getting a bunch of games in.

I'd actually get the all in one box, and then use eSorscha and two jacks in a battlebox formation.

The AiO is the best value hands down. You can scale down if you'd like but if you can find one get one.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
The AiO is the best value hands down. You can scale down if you'd like but if you can find one get one.

And if you can get the AOI for a discount the value goes through the roof. I did the math once and you'll be getting so much stuff for free that it's a bit silly.

If you can't find one I'd be willing to buy one at my LGS and ship it to you. I think we're only out of Menoth.

Granted they don't discount so it'd be retail + 8% tax & shipping but it's still a good deal. I'd be willing to provide recepts as verification, I'm not looking to make $ here, just support my LGS.