Facing DEF16/17 infantry with Skorne

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**Dakkamite**

New player here, running Skorne with pMorghoul and a number of big fat beasts. My main opponent either runs beast heavy or Hex Hunter Legion. If he runs beast heavy we have a good game, and I have a strong chance to win. If he runs Hex Hunters, he can buff their already massive DEF 14 to 16, and to 17 with (insert name here)'s infinite animus feat which makes it impossible to hit them.

Even Morghoul, the infantry shredding ninja caster, can't kill this gak. Wondering what sort of answers Skorne has to this sort of problem. Preferrably without changing casters or going mass infantry - I'm here for the big smashy beasts

**Laughing Man**

Bronzeback with lots of Fury to blow? Cyclops and Molik Karn? No matter what you field, sticking with a caster that lacks accuracy buffs is going to hurt your ability to deal with high defense infantry. AoEs will also help, and you can boost the damage if absolutely necessary, so Titan Cannoneers or the upcoming Aradus?

**Shas'O Dorian**

Dakkamite wrote:
Preferrably without changing casters or going mass infantry - I'm here for the big smashy beasts

Then you're very limited. Two answers would be the Mammoth and the Titan Cannoneer. Particularly the mammoth.

High DF is nice, but usually high Df means low ARM. The mammoth can pump out 3 AoE's at size 4 and POW 8 (Assuming non hit). Which should blow away most lightly armoured infantry. The range is only 10 but you can take a cyclops raider to give him snipe for rng 14.

You could also use a Rhinodon. While they're only Mat 5, use the Amuck animus to boost their special attack rolls then Thresher. But then again you'd have to bring a rhinodon...

**PrinceRaven**

Hex Hunters are ARM 12 with a single box which means they die to a stiff breeze if you actually hit them. Knocking them down or hitting them with AOEs are the best way to deal with their high DEF.

Also, I'm assuming your opponent is using Bethayne, so two things to keep in mind that I'm not sure they're following:
1. Ashen Veil is an upkeep spell, only 1 unit may have it on them as casting it again makes the first instance immediately expire.
2. A Warbeast can only cast its Animus once per activation, getting Tenacity on 10 Hex Hunters without spending Bethayne's Fury requires 10 separate Shredders.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Also you could slam a couple of the models into each other. Just boost the hit dice and you should be killing 2 models with each slam.

**Grey Templar**

Indcindiarii

/thread

Seriously, get these guys. They solve so many problems.

**Gazzor**

Definitely.

Fire works more of the time vs. nasty stuff like Satyxis (Blast immune) and high armour infantry that would shrug off POW 6-8 blasts.

And if you can tag the enemy caster, then that's even better...

Gaz

**Shas'O Dorian**

I'd recommend incindiarii but he said "I'm here for the big smashy beasts"

Incidiarii are fantastic & find their way into almost ALL of my skorne lists. If you can get over the hangup about infantry definitely take them.

I had a guy shield wall a big unit of convergence shield people and I just did a 6 man CRA. The blast is POW12 at that point lol.

**Dakkamite**

I'm here for the beasts and don't want to spam infantry. Perfectly happy to take a unit of them.

So Cannoneer is the best beast based answer? I'll give it a go. Was considering one for other reasons because it looks like it can smash face in melee too with the skorne buffs

Will also try the heavy fire dudes. God those models are expensive, thats one of the reasons I like the beasts

**Shas'O Dorian**

The best beast option is the mammoth

**Dakkamite**

Extoller Soulward seems pretty damn good at this. Put eyeless sight on something and ignore stealth/concealment - hex hunters and ashen vale lose a lot of their scariness. Can also apparantly do a pretty nasty shot after you lose a few cannon fodder to take a lump of HP from a beast - meaning my roided up cyclops savage can kill heavies. For just 2pts thats very very nice

**Grey Templar**

Eyeless Sight does nothing against the -2 to hit from living models part of Ashen Veil though. It literally only matters if you are shooting them and aren't within 2".

**PrinceRaven**

Well if you're shooting them you probably aren't within 2".

**Dakkamite**

Grey Templar wrote:
Eyeless Sight does nothing against the -2 to hit from living models part of Ashen Veil though. It literally only matters if you are shooting them and aren't within 2".

Ashen Veil is Concealment and -2 within 2". For melee troops it should ignore the +2 DEF from concealment, and -2 is certainly better than an effective -4. As for the rest, well, we are kind of talking about shooting them

**Surtur**

Concealment does nothing in melee

**Grey Templar**

Concealment only effects shooting. It doesn't do anything against melee attacks.

The only time concealment matters in melee is if a model with gunfighter attacks something in melee under the effect of ashen veil, in which case it will be a cumulative -4(for concealment and for the -2 to living models) as gunfighter attacks are still ranged attacks.

**Dakkamite**

Thats what I get for listening to battle college I guess

**Grey Templar**

Pretty sure even battle college isn't saying that Concealment applies to melee attacks.

If you point me to the page, I'll fix it.

**Dakkamite**

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cover+%26+Concealment

"Concealment yields a +2 DEF bonus against melee attacks if your base is partially obscured by an obstacle or obstruction."

I assumed if a model "has concealment" all the time this would apply to them

**Grey Templar**

That was written by someone who was confused obviously. I have fixed it.

Its a common mistake to be fair.

**chaos0xomega**

If you're having trouble with high DEF models, hit them with AOEs, blast damage will usually do it. Also, as others have said, Incendiarii. They might not kill them with the blast damage, but the continuous fire that the enemy models will be suffering will probably get it done. As others have suggested, Slamming models usually works as well.

I think that is one of the beauties of the game system, is that there are ways around just about any obstacle if you're clever enough to use the tools given to you in the core rules.

**Dakkamite**

Slams look like a cool way to get past the DEF - still gotta hit the first guy but then he can take several with him

**oomiestompa**

Dakkamite wrote:
If he runs Hex Hunters, he can buff their already massive DEF 14 to 16, and to 17 with (Bethayne)'s infinite animus feat which makes it impossible to hit them.

Bethayne's feat allows your opponent's warbeasts to "use their animi without being forced". This does not mean they get to use their animi infinitely. They are still restricted to one animus use each. Relevant ruling from an Infernal linked here.

**Dakkamite**

That post just made my day. It seemed ridiculous and we googled it but the forum threads that came up said it was infinite uses.

**PrinceRaven**

As I said, to get Tenactiy on 10 Hex Hunters without spending any fury, you'd need 10 Shreddeers.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Well, I've heard of Thagrosh lists that consist only of shredders. So I guess it is possible to have 10+ shredders on the board at the same time.

**PrinceRaven**

It's possible but it's highly unusual for Bethayne who normal runs an atypical amount of infantry for Legion.

**Mordekiem**

Dakkamite wrote:
Thats what I get for listening to battle college I guess

Battle college has its place, but don't rely on them for rules and such. There are things that are wrong or out of date.

All that said, it has gotten better with the newer releases.