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Made in gb
Squishy Squig




So I recently started playing warmachine and I've just finished reading through the forces of warmachine: menoth book and it got me wondering about the way they feel about other races such as, elves, dwarves, trollblood ect. Also, are there any cases of non-human menites? Just curious
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





Probably not very highly, then again humans don't regard any of the other races too highly, thagrosh was an enslaved ogrun, and the trolls feel betrayed by cygnar.

Menoth is the creator of mankind, so I doubt any non humans worship him as their god.

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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The Protectorate, and Menoth himself, are mostly ambivalent about non-humans. As long as they aren't Devourer worshippers you aren't going to be killed on sight or anything. There is some xenophobia in the Protectorate, but its directed against everyone. And mostly against humans who don't worship Menoth.

Now as far as non-humans worshiping Menoth. They can do that. They're not going to receive anything for it. Menoth isn't going to accept their souls into the City of Man when they die. So really there would be no point for a non-human to worship Menoth, except possibly the Giants, who were also likely creations of Menoth.

The Protectorate does have a moderate non-human population, less than other kingdoms, but this is more of a byproduct of them being an isolated insular society until recently. The Protectorate was basically Cygnar's ghetto to get rid of all the troublesome Menites and kick the can further down the road. It was believed to be a mostly barren wasteland with few resources. Hence there wouldn't be much point in living there unless you were a Menite human in the first place and needed a sanctuary.

That was of course before the discovery of rich mineral deposits and oil.

It should also be noted that Gobbers were instrumental in the early days when the Protectorate was smuggling in cortices. Gobbers are a major part of most smuggling organizations and other criminal activity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/15 21:12:29


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Squishy Squig




So what happens to non-human souls when they die? Do their gods have there own kingdoms in Uncaen like Morrow and the other twin?

So how do other human nations feel about non-humans?
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

It depends. Dhunians get reabsorbed into her and, they believe, are reincarnated.

Morrow and Tamar have lesser kingdoms in Urcaen.

The Devourers followers go to Urcaen and are reincarnated as vicious beasts, which prey on all the other souls wandering Urcaen who didn't follow a particular god or they attack the other god's realms.

The various god's and their followers in Urcaen are in perpetual war with each other.

Nobody knows what the elven souls do now. They used to go to the Veld in Urcaen. But after the demise of the god's nobody is sure if its still there.

Most other kingdoms are integrated with non-humans without much conflict. Gobbers mostly live among humans, although small communities do live on their own. Trollkin and Ogrun have great opportunity as laborers or mechanics or soldiers. Dwarves are great traders and mercenaries as well. Cygnar has the best acceptance of non-humans.

The most racist of the various nations are the elves. They blame humans for the death of their gods and have become isolationists/total xenophobes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/15 21:53:16


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ca
Bane Lord Tartar Sauce




Regarding the Protectorate's stance on non-human races, as well as Menoth's stance, is formally 'whatever, as long as you don't help the devourer'. I don't have my copy of "Gods and Kings" with me at the moment, where I believe that it is discussed, but I will recall what I can. Remember that Menoth is ultimately the god of humanity and has no real interest in the other races. As a result, the official stance of the Protectorate is that they are friendly towards non-humans, and do not believe that they have any less right to Caen than humans do. They are actively seeking to improve diplomatic ties with the non-human races as a result (with more success in Rhul than Ios for obvious reasons). As for non-humans living in the Protectorate, they are allowed to practice their own religion as long as A) it isn't Devourer worship, B) its kept to the insides of their own homes.

Unofficially, it is not a good thing to be a non-human living in the Protectorate, at least compared to those living in the other nations. While the official stance towards non-humans may be 'indifferent acceptance with a mix of second-classness', remember that the majority of the Protectorate's citizens are uneducated zealots who need only the slightest provocation to burn somebody's family to death. Dhunia worship is all but wiped out within the Protectorate due to the fact that it is often identified as Devourer worship, and the Elves outside of Ios are few in number yet still mistreated. So many non-humans in the Protectorate either have left or seek to leave, and the theocracy does not regret them leaving.

Regarding souls and death,

Just to provide insight on what happens to human souls on death, there are, generally speaking, 5 options - they go to Urcaen in some gods domain, they are lost in the wilds, they become a beast of the Devourer, they are trapped on Caen, or they are consumed by an Infernal. If option 1 occurs, it is because the individual was devoted to one of the major gods (Menoth, Morrow or Thalmar) and joins that god in his/her domain. Option 2 happens to those without a god, they become lost in the wilds to be preyed on by the Devourer Wurm. For those who worship the Wurm, they join him in the hunt, although it is unclear if they remain in their form to hunt, or if they become feral beasts. Option 4 occurs when something prevents the soul from leaving Caen upon death. Perhaps it is caught in a soul cage, or bound to the earth by a particularly bloody death leaving a ghost or wraith. The 5th option is the worst. Individuals who either make a deal with an Infernal or whom are sacrificed to one have their soul captured by the Infernal. It is not completely clear what happens, but it is implied the Infernal eats the soul.

It is worth noting that Cyriss does not have a domain in Urcaen, which is why clockwork ascendancy is so important to them. Should they die and their soul be lost, they will be alone in the wilds and devoured.

For non-human souls, it depends on the beings race and religion. I can't remember what happens for Dwarves, but for Dhunians, they are absorbed into Dhunia to be reborn. The elves have a more... complicated situation. In the past, when an elf died, his or her soul was judged to see if it was suited to moving to the Veld (the Elven god's territory in Urcaen, implied to be separate from that which holds Menoth, the Devourer, and the Twins). However, since the collapse of the World Bridge this has been ambiguous, and since the Rivening it is believed that there is no longer a judge or guide for the souls, and many of the souls meant to be reincarnated or move to the Veld become lost.
   
Made in us
Storm Guard





Not all of the elves are racist/xenophobic the Retribution of Scyrah is just a small subsect of the Iosian nation who are regarded by most as a bit crazy. There are something like 13 ruling houses and the retribution only is supported by two of them. Though they are gaining popularity, Thyron is from a third major house and they sent him out to see if they want to align themselves with the Retribution.

Aiyanna is one of the more moderate Iosians who isn't Part o the Retribution who travels around looking for answers to fix their problem instead of blaming it all on humans.

-------------
As to souls of non-humans it depends on their gods. For example those who follow Dunia are reabsorbed into the Earth/Caen.

Skorne on the other hand go into a void of eternal suffering when they die, so alit of their time is spent trying not to die, or if they do have their souls collected in a gem and inserted into a statue whih creates an Ancestral Guardian.

The PP podcast actually just had an episode dealing with souls in the Iron Kingdom.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

I believe human souls can also fall into the abyss between Caen and Urcaen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/16 05:28:56


 Ailaros wrote:
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I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Dwarves go to the land beneath.

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Combat Jumping Ragik






 jeratoll wrote:
Not all of the elves are racist/xenophobic the Retribution of Scyrah is just a small subsect of the Iosian nation who are regarded by most as a bit crazy. There are something like 13 ruling houses and the retribution only is supported by two of them. Though they are gaining popularity, Thyron is from a third major house and they sent him out to see if they want to align themselves with the Retribution.


Three, now 4.

Shyeel & Nyarr are the original big 2.

Vyre joined later on adding their heavy Myrmidons as well as arcanist Ossyan and the new electromancers,

Ellowuyr is the new one. They have not fully committed to joining the Retribution but have sent forces to test the waters.

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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I believe human souls can also fall into the abyss between Caen and Urcaen.


Yes, although the nature of the Void is not well known other than its where Banes come from.

The only certainty is the identity of Tarterus. Goreshade might know a little more about it, but he's probably not sharing that information.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Squishy Squig




Deadnight wrote:
Dwarves go to the land beneath.


Is that just what the dwarves call Uncaen or is that something totally different?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The common menite is likely to perceive trollkin, gobbers, ogrun and other monster-like peoples negatively. There is a longstanding cultural meme that they are spawn of the devourer wurm. This is theologically and factually incorrect and something the clergy is actively working to squash, but such things die hard so the attitudes do remain especially in rural areas but are in decline.

Dwarves and elves don't face these attitudes and the dwarves are often even respected for having gods that kind gel nicely with menoths "follow the rules" approach.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/16 17:35:13


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Boss Gitkrusha wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
Dwarves go to the land beneath.


Is that just what the dwarves call Uncaen or is that something totally different?


The Dwarven gods do have a place in Urcaen too. Its some tower they made out of the bones of another godlike being who created the dwarf gods to be his slaves that they killed to make the tower.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Boss Gitkrusha wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
Dwarves go to the land beneath.


Is that just what the dwarves call Uncaen or is that something totally different?


It's all urcaen.

Think of the realms of the gods in urcaen as being individual continents, separated by vast wilderness. The wilderness is where the devourer and its minions hunt, and the city of man, the veldt, the dwarves tower of ghorfel*, and the realms of morrow and thamar all exist in a single realm. The entirely of urcaen Can be referred to as 'hell', if you are interested...


It is believed that the infernals also exist, but their realms are separate and distinct.

* the dwarves creation mythology is quite excellent btw...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/16 20:54:44


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Deadnight wrote:
Boss Gitkrusha wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
Dwarves go to the land beneath.


Is that just what the dwarves call Uncaen or is that something totally different?


It's all urcaen.

Think of the realms of the gods in urcaen as being individual continents, separated by vast wilderness. The wilderness is where the devourer and its minions hunt, and the city of man, the veldt, the dwarves tower of ghorfel*, and the realms of morrow and thamar all exist in a single realm. The entirely of urcaen Can be referred to as 'hell', if you are interested...


It is believed that the infernals also exist, but their realms are separate and distinct.

* the dwarves creation mythology is quite excellent btw...


It's important to also keep in mind all this knowledge is a vague mixture of myth (in the sense of fictional stories), educated guessing, and what writings or limited visions the gods choose to send down. All the "Canon" information we have from the books is simply what beliefs mortals in the world hold. There aren't any sources that give a kind of objective, zoomed out "True" vision of the afterlife and supernatural realms in the setting.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Chongara wrote:


It's important to also keep in mind all this knowledge is a vague mixture of myth (in the sense of fictional stories), educated guessing, and what writings or limited visions the gods choose to send down. All the "Canon" information we have from the books is simply what beliefs mortals in the world hold. There aren't any sources that give a kind of objective, zoomed out "True" vision of the afterlife and supernatural realms in the setting.


Like the bit that menoth is a giant ogrun...

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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

True, but some of information is pretty well documented and consistent. Urcaen isn't just a legend and its conjectured that these various gods have realms there, because multiple people have actually returned from Urcaen to tell the tale. Some of whom are still alive.

The exact scope and nature of the various realms isn't known. Just that they do exist in Urcaen.

So its factual that the City of Man, Thamar and Morrow's realms, and the Tower of Ghorfel all exist in Urcaen. Separated by a wilderness that is roamed by savage beasts aligned with the Devourer, and the Devourer himself also roams the wilds. Urcaen is also known to be similar to Caen, in that is has roughly natural topography. Forests, mountains, etc... Some of this information is also given directly to the reader and not through a colored lens of someone in the setting.

Things which are unclear are,

The elven gods realm of the Veld may or may not be in Urcaen. It most likely is, but specific details of it are limited as any records of it were destroyed in the cataclysm, and the Iosans aren't exactly sharing their knowledge with anyone.

The nature of the Void. And weather or not the bane Void and the Skorne Void are the same thing. If Goreshade and Zaal got together and compared notes there might be some more details sorted out, but that is very unlikely to happen. For all we know the Skorne Void could just be their interpretation of the wilds of Urcaen where their ancestors are tortured and hunted by the Devourer's spawn.

Dhunian races believe they get reincarnated. There isn't a ton of evidence either way, so we have no reason to doubt this claim.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

 jeratoll wrote:
Not all of the elves are racist/xenophobic the Retribution of Scyrah is just a small subsect of the Iosian nation who are regarded by most as a bit crazy. There are something like 13 ruling houses and the retribution only is supported by two of them. Though they are gaining popularity, Thyron is from a third major house and they sent him out to see if they want to align themselves with the Retribution.

Aiyanna is one of the more moderate Iosians who isn't Part o the Retribution who travels around looking for answers to fix their problem instead of blaming it all on humans.


Aren't the borders closed to pretty much anyone? Retribution may be extremists, but the entire nation has closed itself off. From what I recall there are elves out and about in the world. However, the vast majority of them stay holed up in Ios shunning the rest of the world.

I think the small group Aiyana belongs to are the Seekers. They are kind of the opposite of the Retribution in that they are seeking the truth but are willing to work with and learn from non elves and don't blame the humans.
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Most elves are racist and xenophobic. Not all are extreme enough to act on it beyond closing the borders.

They all accept that human magic is responsible for the death/dying of their gods, which may or may not be true as its just based on a coincidence, but only the Retribution is doing anything about it. And their whole deal is "our gods are dead/dying, might as well get revenge on humans before our race goes extinct."

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






 Grey Templar wrote:

They all accept that human magic is responsible for the death/dying of their gods,
...
but only the Retribution is doing anything about it.


Both are false.

Some do, and all of the Retribution does. But all of Ios does NOT share this view and the Seekers actively oppose it. The seekers are attempting to fix it via knowledge gathering.

Yryas’ heavy reliance on ancient
texts and questionable prophecies, however, has led the
Seekers to countless futile investigations and dead ends.
Furthermore, they stubbornly reject the idea that human
magic and the Rivening are linked
.


Because the Seekers are not prone to violence and conflict wqe don't see them much. But Sylys Wyshnalyrr is a Seeker.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 04:20:31


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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

They all accept that human magic is responsible for the death/dying of their gods,
...
but only the Retribution is doing anything about it.


Both are false.

Some do, and all of the Retribution does. But all of Ios does NOT share this view and the Seekers actively oppose it. The seekers are attempting to fix it via knowledge gathering.

Yryas’ heavy reliance on ancient
texts and questionable prophecies, however, has led the
Seekers to countless futile investigations and dead ends.
Furthermore, they stubbornly reject the idea that human
magic and the Rivening are linked
.


Because the Seekers are not prone to violence and conflict wqe don't see them much. But Sylys Wyshnalyrr is a Seeker.


People seem too broadly conflate "Retribution" with "Ios" for some reason. The Retribution are just one sect in Iosan society and arguably rather on the fringe from an ideological perspective. Sure the borders are closed but that's broadly because of the Demographic collapse they're going through, they're reacting to to sudden tragedy with withdrawal. The fact that closing the borders was an event of note is clear evidence that elves has hateful, ultra-reclusive xenophobes just isn't the normal way of things otherwise a closed border would have been the norm for a long time. The closed border is a noteworthy and (especially on Elven timescales) very recent occurrence. Sure they're probably the most secretive and insular of the nations but that's far from "Kill all humans" being a widespread or longstanding belief.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 13:09:40


 
   
Made in ca
Bane Lord Tartar Sauce




 Grey Templar wrote:


1. Most elves are racist and xenophobic. Not all are extreme enough to act on it beyond closing the borders.

2. They all accept that human magic is responsible for the death/dying of their gods, which may or may not be true as its just based on a coincidence, but only the Retribution is doing anything about it. And their whole deal is "our gods are dead/dying, might as well get revenge on humans before our race goes extinct."


1. The first part may or may not be true. It is unknown whether the majority of the Iosans are racist and xenophobic, although it is implied that many are and the numbers are growing. The second statement is false. The borders weren't closed due to racism and xenophobia, the borders were closed due to the Iosan civil war, since the elves didn't want the other nations knowing of their war which would have made them vulnerable to attack. Xenophobia once again may play a part in why they remain closed, but it is only part of the reason. Other reasons include Ios's historical isolationism (they are more concerned about their internal problems and solving them on their own than anything else).

2. There is a bit wrong with this. While it is unclear how much racism is present in Iosan society (they at least have a bit of a superiority complex), MOST elfs do not accept that human magic is the cause of the death of their gods. Although the Retribution is large and growing, until very recently the organization was actually outlawed and is still viewed by the majority of Ios as a fringe group of fanatical extremists. Some members of the Retribution don't even believe in the cause, either participating because it is politically advantageous (Rahn's entry states that he see's the Retribution as a means to his house's advancement rather than an ends, Garryth loves killing and the Retribution lets him get away with it, and it is likely that Vyros, Issyria and Ossyan feel similarly) or simply because they feel that it is better to do something, even if it isn't necessarily helping, than nothing.

Additionally, the 'kill all humans' thing is not endorsed by the nine voices. Even among fanatics, most members of the Retribution view the desire to wipe out humanity in general as too far. Most only want to kill human mages, and that is it. While the elves are very liberal when it comes to the ideas of 'collateral damage', they don't see a point in killing a man unless it leads to a dead mage. There is even a short story (in NQ I think) about a human caravan that is wiped out to kill a member of one of the fraternal orders, and the head Mage hunter lets the son of the wizard live despite being gifted with the warning that should he practice magic, the mage hunters will return.

Basically, the view that the Retribution is PURELY a hate organization is overly simplistic. While there is no denying that there are racist elements to the Retribution, at least some of them view what they do as a necessary evil to preserve their race, which makes the organization as a whole a bit more interesting than they seem at first.
   
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Combat Jumping Ragik






 Chongara wrote:
The closed border is a noteworthy and (especially on Elven timescales) very recent occurrence. Sure they're probably the most secretive and insular of the nations but that's far from "Kill all humans" being a widespread or longstanding belief.


To expand on this, the border was closed due to a civil war started by Ghrshyyld (now known as Goreshade) and house Vyre. Being a cautious bunch, Ios did not want to appear weak and closed the borders to prevent information leaking out and possibly inviting an attack of opportunity (heh). I believe the borders have remained closed for the most part but they have reopened trade, it is just done at the border gates.

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If you were to go by what the Attendant priest is most often attached to, you'd be led to think that Menites really LOVE Dwarves (w/Hammers).

   
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Storm Guard





 derek wrote:
If you were to go by what the Attendant priest is most often attached to, you'd be led to think that Menites really LOVE Dwarves (w/Hammers).


That actually still annoys me. We can take most dwarves except the ones that set people on fire.
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 jeratoll wrote:
 derek wrote:
If you were to go by what the Attendant priest is most often attached to, you'd be led to think that Menites really LOVE Dwarves (w/Hammers).


That actually still annoys me. We can take most dwarves except the ones that set people on fire.


Its Hammerfell vs Horgenhold. We can't take Hammerfell units.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grey Templar wrote:
 jeratoll wrote:
 derek wrote:
If you were to go by what the Attendant priest is most often attached to, you'd be led to think that Menites really LOVE Dwarves (w/Hammers).


That actually still annoys me. We can take most dwarves except the ones that set people on fire.


Its Hammerfell vs Horgenhold. We can't take Hammerfell units.


And it's cause we hate them for stealing our schtick.

   
 
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