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Hello! So I've tried to have another go at Warmahordes after a sit on the sidelines.
After my first real encounter with a Legion beast list, I was left with very little to take away from the game other then I had nothing worth having on the table to fight them on an even footing.

While I can't remember the exact setup of their force, mine was as follows.

PSorsha - 35pts
Devastator
Destroyer
Max Winter Guard Unit + UA + 3WA
Manhunter
WG FieldGun
WG Morter
WidowMaker squad.

From memory they had

eAbsylonia
2x Scythean
5x Shredders
Nightlurker
Raek
The Forsaken
2x Shepherd
and those goblin cloud throwers who I can't recall the name of.

Either way, the game was an area hold objective game, so I piled up the both objective areas to contest and started throwing explosives at them.
Due to the high def of their whole army and nearby cover I could only hope for lucky scatters but then was usually only doing 1 -2 damage with each shot.
By the end of the game I was mostly tabled and had killed a couple of shredders and the Raek, while Sorcha failed her Sorcha rush badly.

What had really put on off guard was the Legion ability to Alpha strike from outside most of my guns range, while ignoring all my defensive buffs and just fly over all the cover I had in place, with their high def High arm and High Mat trumping everything I had for returning fire with.

Did I just take the entirely wrong list to the fight or is this normal for legion to crush on the alpha strike, So I should have conceded the objectives in the hope I get in range to attack first?

Since I wasn't there I would give the following advice on how I would play that game.

First replace the field gun with Kovnik Jo. Or, take out the mortar and take Jo and a war dog. Jo does so much for your WG and the dog helps Sorscha stay alive. Jo can boost whichever artillery piece you keep on the board for a round or two before being needed with the main troops.

Use the widow makers to take out the shepards and forsaken. Without them he has a major headache in Fury management.

The priority target for you is to take out the Nightlurker. After that your opponent is going to have to boost to have even a decent chance of taking out your (bob and weaved + Iron fleshed) WG. WG are sitting at Def 17 and tough his beast are Mat 6. You're going to cut his attack capability about in half. If the Scythians have to use their animus to take away your tough that's even less attacks and he is only going to kill 2 models, at best, each turn.

CRAs are your friend his beasts aren't able to withstand too many POW 16 shots. Don't forget that they add to RAT as well as POW.

After that if everything goes well it's just mopping up his little pieces and his caster.

Thanks for the Advice.

I'm not sure about the Tough for the WG though as in this game I think it would have allowed them to use the combo attack on the big warbeasts to hit everything in range (since if they hit the same target with both initials then they also get a free attack on everything nearby)

As it was, the WG were a reasonable speed bump in this game as only 2-3 were dieing in a turn.
I wonder if there is something I can get them that ups Def in combat to stack with bob and weave? Def 16 WG would be better then Tough I think

I might swap out the Destroyer for Sorsha Character jack and go with the tier list, since then I loose the widowmakers, get the solo instead, and then get Jo for free which is always nice.

Might see if I can get the card for him and convert my own though Jo's model is a bit mehh to me

As Leo said take out his support shepards and forsaken. He will have a hell of a time trying to manage all the fury.

Your only heavy hitter is a manhunter. As beasts go, legion heavies aren't that hard but you still need more than winter guard pow12s and a manhunter. Iron fangs, great bears, doomies etc. aiyanna and holt help a great deal too

I just don't know how to reach them when he has 13" threats on all of his beasts and can charge further then most of my guns
(and hoping for a lucky mortar scatter does not seem a good tactic!)

Yup, make sure to read your opponents cards before the game so you know what to prioritize on. And, in all honesty, I would think of dropping the Destroyer and Field Gun, take Beast-09 for the added MAT and Reach to get a little more threat range. And drop the Mortar and take Kovnik Joe and a Wardog. You lose a little ranged, but with the higher DEF of some Legion models, and the poor RAT of most things Winterguard. I honestly think that would do you a little better for how speedy his list was.

 aprilmanha wrote:
I just don't know how to reach them when he has 13" threats on all of his beasts and can charge further then most of my guns
(and hoping for a lucky mortar scatter does not seem a good tactic!)

He can charge further then your gun range, but your walk + shoot range is longer than his threat and while POW 12 will not hurt the Scytheans it will absolutely murder everything else in that list including the Naga and the Raek. But you'll probably need to time Sorcha's feat correctly to help you hit since you don't have Joe for some reason.

The Mortar and the Widowmakers should have the Shepherds and Forsaken as their primary target. The Mortar's 4" AOE means that you only need average dice to hit a Shepherd with a deviation and a POW 8 should kill it without any problems. The Widowmakers have a 20" walk and shoot threat so deploying them on a flank should give them decent LOS to the Legion player's support models (and the Mortar's Arcing Fire should make it impossible to hide Shepherds behind the warbeasts).

Honestly, the only change that I would make to your list would be to replace the Field Gun with Kovnik Joe

Hehe Funny thing is in the game I played the only thing that managed to get a shot on and kill one of the shepherds was the Field Gun

This is why I prefer the w40K scatter rules... I have amazing luck rolling a hit every time (when I play orks) but with the Mortar Its usually maximum deviation for me

PhantomViper wrote:

 aprilmanha wrote:
I just don't know how to reach them when he has 13" threats on all of his beasts and can charge further then most of my guns
(and hoping for a lucky mortar scatter does not seem a good tactic!)

He can charge further then your gun range, but your walk + shoot range is longer than his threat and while POW 12 will not hurt the Scytheans it will absolutely murder everything else in that list including the Naga and the Raek. But you'll probably need to time Sorcha's feat correctly to help you hit since you don't have Joe for some reason.

The Mortar and the Widowmakers should have the Shepherds and Forsaken as their primary target. The Mortar's 4" AOE means that you only need average dice to hit a Shepherd with a deviation and a POW 8 should kill it without any problems. The Widowmakers have a 20" walk and shoot threat so deploying them on a flank should give them decent LOS to the Legion player's support models (and the Mortar's Arcing Fire should make it impossible to hide Shepherds behind the warbeasts).

Honestly, the only change that I would make to your list would be to replace the Field Gun with Kovnik Joe

Yea, but the feat will only get you just one turn of stationary goodness, she can also Freezing Grip, but with just an average Focus and it taking four to cast. I feel that he should get something better at cracking armor. Right now both of his 'Jacks are pretty pillow fisted by Khador standards. P+S 17 on the Destroyer is good... But not great, the auto hitting POW 18 is great... But then it is ARM 17 and has two P+S 16 fists. That, and the reroll on charge attacks and increased MAT with Beast-09 goes a long way on non feat turns. I love me some pSorscha, my personal favorite 'Caster. But you can't rely on the feat for everything. I personally don't run more than one Warjack with her, but the Devastator can make a great first line Warjack. Use it to slam things out of threat range for his turn, Bulldoze open charge lanes for a good melee beater to come on through. At that point I would like to have either a Spriggan or Beast to be able to get a little extra threat range, and be able to get charge lanes that something without Reach can't. Her feat is wonderful, but with the amount of large and medium based models your opponent is using, a lot of what Sorscha can draw line of sight to can be easily blocked (fury management solos, Warlock). Find what fits your play style, but I think that a little more high P+S for cracking ARM and something that can hit a little more accurately on non feat turns will go a long way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, a nasty trick I have picked up. Is to make your opponent think you are going to Sorscha's bomb him on your turn by setting up that way, but allocate focus to your melee jack, wind rush Sorscha forward pop feat and than walk backwards. It will let you get good mobility to maximize your feat. Against a Warlock, assassinations are hard if they have any fury on them. Don't try and get Sorscha to do all of the work. Let her army work for her, and only go in with her if they are out of Fury for transfers. And remember she has a hand cannon. You can always stand still after Wind Rush and feating to get a good damage boosted shot off while still hanging out some focus.

Tough WG are not very good against legion, the animus of the Scythean gives him the ability to ignore tough, and slaughterhouse will hack a whole bunch of them.

But widowmakers on the sheppards will take them down. Average rolls to kill, and you can use them to chip away at the beasts, because they are not the toughest of creatures, the hardest part is hitting, and sorscha can help with that.

If you can knock out his fury management and he has to run his beasts hot, then sorscha can hit Abby and break her on half without the ability to transfer.

There is always Riflecorps and Joe. Use them to blast apart his fury management, and just have a bonkers threat range. Place out covering fire templates... The beasts won't care about them, but their support sure as heck will. Forcing them to either go around or keep his fury management towards the rear.

Remember, your walk + shoot range is 14". Throw a few WG out to screen, then when he kills them, you have an 8ish man CRA to blow him away. That's RAT 14 POW 20. Boom Boom.

Joe giving +1 on attack dice will help your rockets take out his shepherds. Their Walk + shoot range is 20" iirc.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Remember, your walk + shoot range is 14". Throw a few WG out to screen, then when he kills them, you have an 8ish man CRA to blow him away. That's RAT 14 POW 20. Boom Boom.

Joe giving +1 on attack dice will help your rockets take out his shepherds. Their Walk + shoot range is 20" iirc.

Very true, shoot, with the ARM values of most Legion Heavies, at that point you could get away with two four man CRA's and still do some decent damage.

But that's still 2-3 turns of the CRA hitting and getting good rolls on the damage when all he needs to do is one round of combat to wipe out half the CRA.

Even Khador jacks are one turn fodder to Legion charges, (except his Scyther who charged my devastator and promptly rolled 6,6 to hit followed by 1,2 for damage like 5 times in a row O_o )

Is there anything I can get to make my Jacks more survivable? Seems like battle meks won;t be much use with a dead jack, but is there something easy to add that can give them like +3~4 Arm? I think then I should at least manage to last more then a turn so I can counter attack back and score some hits

 aprilmanha wrote:
But that's still 2-3 turns of the CRA hitting and getting good rolls on the damage when all he needs to do is one round of combat to wipe out half the CRA.

Even Khador jacks are one turn fodder to Legion charges, (except his Scyther who charged my devastator and promptly rolled 6,6 to hit followed by 1,2 for damage like 5 times in a row O_o )

Is there anything I can get to make my Jacks more survivable? Seems like battle meks won;t be much use with a dead jack, but is there something easy to add that can give them like +3~4 Arm? I think then I should at least manage to last more then a turn so I can counter attack back and score some hits

Nope, battlemechs aren't going to be very good because by the time they get to move, the jack is toast.

Actually, a Scythean isn't too brilliant against Khador Axejacks. He's only pow 17, so he's always rolling minus 3. There is a chance the jack will not die in one turn. The clam should be able to survive, but he might get lucky first hit and knock out an arm. The only option is too try and knock an aspect out at range. Then the damage is significantly reduced.

 aprilmanha wrote:
one round of combat to wipe out half the CRA.

If one beast is taking out 5-6 infantry you really need to work on your spacing... If he's dedicating two heavies to WGI he's neglecting something else.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 aprilmanha wrote:
one round of combat to wipe out half the CRA.

If one beast is taking out 5-6 infantry you really need to work on your spacing... If he's dedicating two heavies to WGI he's neglecting something else.

True, leaving other stuff open to be pummelled. I am still feeling that your best defense against those heavies is going to be a Devastator slamming/bulldozing things away or towards the rest of your army, with Beast or a Spriggan for mop up duties. Heck, you can load up Beast/Spriggan with three focus. One to the Devastator and boundless charge one of those two guys in. A good offense with Khador I have found to be better than just finding ways to absorb the blows. Try and bait him in with your infantry too, get him into a position YOU want. And than punish him. It is hard to absorb a charge from a heavy with your heavy, learn when to piece trade and how to lure in your opponents to force them to piece trade. Make him run his beasts hot while your Khadoran Jacks do what they do best, smash things. While using your Winterguard Infantry and Widowmakers to pop his fury management.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, all of that stuff can be done without feating, use Joe to boost sprays, Spriggan is MAT 8 on the charge attack, Beast-09 is always a natural MAT 7 with reroll on charge attacks(with Sorscha). Leaving you to force him to run hot in non ideal conditions, with potentially nothing to transfer to. Than you are free to feat your next turn and Sorscha Bomb, or send in a Jack against a stationary Warlock.

I was wrong to say use Jo to give the WG tough, as you pointed out, but he can boost their ranged attack rolls or give them +3 STR that makes them POW 11 with CMA that can bust a lot of your opponents low arm things. Your averaging 3.5 damage per hit.

I know this may sound like a cop out but you might consider going to Sorscha 2. She helps your winter guard go to 11. She can give one unit desperate pace (+2 move) and allows you to reroll missed CRAs. With her feat you'll be cracking Legion easy.

You may also want to invest in a Rheinhold figure. He can help out quite a bit.

Keep your jacks just beyond max charge range of the Scytheans, if they charge any of your infantry with a Scythean you can tear it apart with one of your warjacks.

Keep in mind that Legion is more scared of high quality attacks than high quantity. Spread out and CRA with your infantry, this will force your opponent to engage but also minimise your own losses.

The only problem I see with using the CRA on his beasts while they eat the one or 2 men they can reach is that if he does manage to not kill one of them and remains engaged I'm more likely to shoot my own guy in the back

Rerolling CRA's is a nice idea though.

Also, pushing does not work on the heavy beasts, as they have some ability that ignores all pushes and knockdowns I think

 aprilmanha wrote:
The only problem I see with using the CRA on his beasts while they eat the one or 2 men they can reach is that if he does manage to not kill one of them and remains engaged I'm more likely to shoot my own guy in the back

Rerolling CRA's is a nice idea though.

Also, pushing does not work on the heavy beasts, as they have some ability that ignores all pushes and knockdowns I think

No, they do not. Heavies can be pushed, slammed and knocked down. There are only a few than cannot. Mainly the serpentine models without legs.

 aprilmanha wrote:
The only problem I see with using the CRA on his beasts while they eat the one or 2 men they can reach is that if he does manage to not kill one of them and remains engaged I'm more likely to shoot my own guy in the back

In this situation you have the one or two models that are engaged advance out of melee range, while the rest of the unit forfeits their movement to aim. You'll take free stirkes on the models that disengage and they'll probably die, but if they live you can have them participate in a CRA and, as long as they aren't the main model shooting, the fact that they aren't aiming doesn't matter.

Also, pushing does not work on the heavy beasts, as they have some ability that ignores all pushes and knockdowns I think

You're thinking of Fortify, which is one of Absylonia2's spells. As an upkeep spell she may only cast this on a single model.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

You're thinking of Fortify, which is one of Absylonia2's spells. As an upkeep spell she may only cast this on a single model.

That'll be why I couldn't do it then

 PrinceRaven wrote:

In this situation you have the one or two models that are engaged advance out of melee range, while the rest of the unit forfeits their movement to aim. You'll take free stirkes on the models that disengage and they'll probably die, but if they live you can have them participate in a CRA and, as long as they aren't the main model shooting, the fact that they aren't aiming doesn't matter.

Exactly this. Remember you cannot CRA into melee (To my knowledge only Ret has this ability) so you will want to walk out. Losing one guy to a free strike is acceptable losses to drop a couple nasty CRAs.

And losing 1 guy is even iffy. If you upkeep Iron Flesh on them, and they get Bob and Weave, a Scythean unbuffed will need 9s to hit a Winter Guard walking away with a free strike.

As for eSorscha I cannot commend her enough. She is the most fun I have had playing warmachine in 3 or so years now. The ability to see a no-camp enemy caster who thinks that they are safe 19" away and go "yeah...you're dead", almost unbeatable mobility (compared to the other caster's I have played), strong denial/debuffing (freezing gr-gr-gr-grrriiiiip is the best when the enemy doesn't see it coming), infantry clearing out the wazoo and turning winter guard up to one hundred and eleven, just good god I love that caster. Such fun.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

In this situation you have the one or two models that are engaged advance out of melee range, while the rest of the unit forfeits their movement to aim. You'll take free stirkes on the models that disengage and they'll probably die, but if they live you can have them participate in a CRA and, as long as they aren't the main model shooting, the fact that they aren't aiming doesn't matter.

Exactly this. Remember you cannot CRA into melee (To my knowledge only Ret has this ability) so you will want to walk out. Losing one guy to a free strike is acceptable losses to drop a couple nasty CRAs.

Actually correct me if I'm wrong, but when you CRA or CMA, don't you need everyone in the attack to have the same buffs to benefit from it?
So everyone needs to aim or no-one does and everyone needs to charge or no one boosts Damage rolls?

You can charge 2 guys into a combat 1 guy is already in, and if you CMA you'll get the +3/+3 to hit/damage, but you don't get the boosted damage roll.

 aprilmanha wrote:


Even Khador jacks are one turn fodder to Legion charges, (except his Scyther who charged my devastator and promptly rolled 6,6 to hit followed by 1,2 for damage like 5 times in a row O_o )

Is there anything I can get to make my Jacks more survivable? Seems like battle meks won;t be much use with a dead jack, but is there something easy to add that can give them like +3~4 Arm? I think then I should at least manage to last more then a turn so I can counter attack back and score some hits

You don't need more arm. This is not a game of survivability. This is a game of damage output.

Distance. Bubble wrap your jacks with infantry. Like real life. Tanks are very vulnerable to infantry, and therefore need infantry support.

Spread out your infantry and use them to absorb the alpha strike from his warbeasts and tarpit them. Hold your jacks further back. They're 'concentrated force', not 'alphastrike'.Use your jacks and units like the great bears as a second wave to counter punch, and wreck his beasts. Trading a carnivean for a few winter guard is a good trade.

 motyak wrote:
The ability to see a no-camp enemy caster who thinks that they are safe 19" away and go "yeah...you're dead",

Allegedly, remember Sorcha is only P+S13 and remember 19" is her MAX that's assuming it is a straight shot and her initial charge target is in the right spot. Any movement to get around intervening models & such will cut that down.

Also after that giant move she will only have 2 focus to boost dmg / buy attacks, to break it down:

Sorcha boundless & cyclones to get in melee. Sorcha is MAT 7 Vs avg caster Df of 15. Needs an 8 to hit (41% chance to hit). You may want to boost hit since you're definitely dead if you fail (83.8% chance to hit).

P+S 13 Vs avg caster armour of what, also 15? (I don't know I'm just flipping through books and ball parking)

Dice - 2 is 5 dmg. Boosted is 8.5 dmg. Under feat 10-17 dmg. So to kill most undamaged casters you will need to feat as a damaged caster is likely camping a few focus. Most caster I saw have 16-18 DMG.

Even still you're looking at about 50% success rate to suicide Sorcha. Assuming the enemy caster has 0 buffs and 0 focus.

Not to say it can't happen, just warning new players that hey, it's possible, but it is VERY dangerous and I wouldn't recommend it if it can be avoided. And COMPLETELY useless against warlocks who have 2 transfers and very VERY unlikely against warlocks with 1, since after all this is a counter legion thread.

Now if you can avoid casting boundless charge or cyclone it works much better as you will have an extra 2 focus for attacks. But even then...

Fun? Yes. Cool to see? Yes Something to count on / go for if you don't need to? No way.