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Long time lurker, first time poster.

So I wrote about this a little while ago on Reddit, but things seem a bit more steamy around here.

Anyway, I'm getting back into this game for some reason after being out of action since 3rd ed. I'm in the process of dusting off and rebuilding models from a bygone time.

As a teen, I lacked vision and coherency in my list building - and this time around I really want to build around a strong theme. I also really want to build a list inspired by this guy:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/311/2/f/2fcccb642827bb8be8f7533d81d6a0c1-d32e10t.jpg][/url and 7.JPG

and also this guy: http://eldar.arhicks.co.uk/miniatures/other/warhammer_40000/images/orks_1_7.JPG

So Blood Axes with a strong Kommando theme. My rules of even bothering with this are:

1) Fun to paint.
2) Fun to play.
3) Sneaky gits.

After a lot of playing around with battlescribe (21st century list building is a dream) and reading just about every thread with the word Ork in it, I've cobbled together the following:

Boss Snikrot's Red Skull Kommandos

Snikrot (50 pts)
12 Kommandos + Nob with PK, BP (170 pts)
12 Kommandos + Nob with PK, BP (170 pts)
12 Kommandos + Nob with PK, BP (170 pts)
12 Kommandos + Nob with PK, BP (170 pts)

CAD

HQ

Warboss w Da Finkin' Kap, PK, Warbike (120 pts)

Elites

5 Tankbustas, 2 bomb squigs (75 pts)

5 Tankbustas, 2 bomb squigs (75 pts)

Troops

10 Grots, Runtherd (35 pts)

10 Grots, Runtherd (35 pts)

Fast Attack

Dakka Jet, Flyboss, 3 twinlinked Supa Shootas (145 pts)

Dakka Jet, Flyboss, 3 twinlinked Supa Shootas (145 pts)

Warkopta Squadron, 2 Warkoptas (130 pts)

Total 1500 pts

Thoughts:

This list evolved from an original idea of running Snikrot's Red Skull Kommandos alongside the Air Armada. I fully intend to do that some day, but at this points level I couldn't figure an effective way to do it. Thematically I want sneakiness in the form of a bunch of Red Skulls showing up while supported by heavy air based fire power.

The warboss exists to have the Finkin' cap, and will be modeled as a "field general" wheeling about on a wartrack. My idea with him is to re roll until I get the ability to re roll reserves. If I don't get that then the plan is to only roll threes. He's got a PK and I'm hoping to keep him moving and in cover with the intention of getting him stuck in where the Red Skulls need him most. Originally he was going to roll with a couple deffkoptas, but he's going to go on his own until I see if this is survivable.

Next, the tankbustas will roll in to Ride of the Valkyries on their Warkoptas and nuke whatever looks most nukeable. I'm thinking I might deploy them as one unit in the trailing Warkopta to add to their survivability, but I'll have to play test that. I could then stash one of the grot units in the forward 'Kopta to grab a forward objective or something. Dunno. But I figure the two warkoptas basically equal a Dakkajet with troop transport capacity of 20 models. And if someone says I can't play with FW, well, they have poor taste.

My friends the grots will be modeled as scouts (trying to find the gorkamorka rebel grots for this) with a kromlech ork comissar runtheard kinda standing over them. Their job is to deploy, hit the deck, and prevent me from getting tabled turn 1 while hopefully clinging to a backfield objective for dear life.

Then there are the Dakkajets, which are fully kitted out and play the role usually filled by Lootas in most lists. Based on not too crazy maths and lengthy discussion on various threads, I figure them to be similarly effective and far more bad ass. Plus you know, as a 3rd ed guy, flyers are tremendously novel to me. And dat model almost makes me not embarrassed to be doing this at such an advanced age.

Of course there is the meat and potatoes: Snikrot and his boys. I figure they roar on, and hit the deck. Hopefully nobody has ignore cover and bob's my uncle when they charge everything on turn 3. Super lame that they need to wait to turn 3, but hey. Of course, they will always show up on turn 2. It will be impossible for them not to. Mork said so.

So that's that. From here I plan to grow the list to include the armada, maxed out Red Skulls, and perhaps another tankbusta warkopta.

Modelling wise, the Kommandos are all kitbashed based on the stormclaw naked torso (and their really awesome ork heads.) I don't like the super encumbered version of kommandos, so they all have small amounts of extra packs on their backs. The bustas on the other hand are modeled with regular torsos, but encumbered with backpacks full of explosives. I think I'm going to go with the Stormclaw helmet w goggles heads and scratch built bazooka type rokkits, but we'll see. I also kinda like the kromlech kommando heads for this application. To me, the Busta's play more like kommandos/sappers than the kommandos really do.

The koptas will be built out of some 1:48 Chinook models I've got my eye on because the FW ones are the only bad FW models that exist.

That is all. Hopefully someone out there thinks this is neat ... because I literally have no one to talk to about this. My old gaming buddies think I've gone insane and I think my wife is hoping this passes rather quickly.

Cheers.

I will start by saying that Kommando with flamer (burnas) are really good. They put a lot of pressure on boards edge, which mean people will deploy close to the rest of your army. Might want to look into that.

Also, with only 20 Grots on the board turn 1 (or 10 if you do the thing where you put 10 in a koptas), you will be really easy to board. Mobile army with bike/jetbike and whatnot are popular lately, and those would board you turn 1 for sure if you only have 10grots on table. With 20, I guess you could survive, but that's a gamble I wouln't want to take hehe.
Oh and I just also notice your warboss. Alone without squad, turn 1? He might die.

Maybe downsizing the Kommando to squad of 10 or 8, take 1 or 2 burna per squad (which end up being an AP 3 weapon in close combat) will give you more wiggle room to help survive.

There's also other places you could cut. Bring only 1 Dakkajet, or keep 2 but remove upgrade. Or bring 1 Koptas since you can put your 10tankubsta in 1 squad.

As for the theme of the army, this sound really nice!

Sweet, delicious, feedback. It means a lot to me, thanks.

I figure I'll need to play around with turn 1 and how to approach the whole tabling problem. The Warkoptas could deploy away from danger rather than being in reserve... but my fear with only having one is that it would be absolutely nuked. Running them in a squadron would hopefully aid in keeping the bustas alive and on target.

And yes I think that Warboss may have some issues with not dying. But we'll see!

As for the burnas - my thinking is that the Red Skulls lose their big advantage of having stealth if they shoot when they come on. So I figured I'd keep them lean and roughly trukk mob sized rather than equipped for shooting. I've got old burna models, so I can always try that down the road. They are certainly handy - just pretty pricey. I think 30 points per unit if I were to do that. So I could ditch a Warkopta and at least have 4 on two units.

Ignores cover will end me. So my strategy there is to find creative excuses not to play armies with a lot of that.

Good stuff, thanks!

Welcome back. I like the concept, always wanted to see a red skulls army play out. The tank bustas in koptas especially sound really cool man.

The news is What PandaHero said is true, but it can't be overstated. The ranged game has become far more lethal than when last you played. Removing entire armies by turn 2-3 is reality. In this case I'd expect it turn 1 barring crazy luck.

A few thoughts:
If this is to function appropriately I think you need to cut back on the airforce to get more substance on the ground for turns 1-2. A couple units of big gunz would be great for both durability and theme. A mob of boyz or bikers to put the boss in would also really help and would make for a good hammer with your skulls anvil.

Not sure if you noted this or not but snikrots whole 'unless joined by ICs' thing is overridden by sneaky gitz and strike from da shadows.. meaning you can add painboys or what you to those squads without messing up their special rules. Meks at the least will allow the PK nob to remain effective for 1 turn more vs opposing characters.

The other idea is to increase to pts limit for this concept so you can fit what you need to make it work. Or well I suppose you could change up the skulls mobz.. make some smaller with burnas to find some points. Idk, just some ideas.

Thanks man!

So this is something I really haven't looked into - as I'm playing the Snikrot Red Skulls formation here - I just assumed I couldn't join ICs... but holy hannah!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/656806.page

Is this true? If so that changes everything. Rear board edge infiltrating warboss? I think so. Meks for challenges? Weirdboy "pathfinderz"? (Remember this guy? He's perfect! https://sho3box.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nazgrubwurrzag1.jpg?w=468 ) Might have to draft my 1000th iteration of this now.

Also the Airpower/Sneaky stuff was my way of trying to think outside the box in solving the whole getting shot up before I can assault problem. (Without running a borrrring trukk list - I did that in 3rd. Or its modern equivalent, the Blitz Brigade). Which I think this can do... if I survive first turn then actually show up, then survive turn 2 with awesome cover saves. Also, re Jets, again, I just love those models. I've tried to conceptualize an Aegis defense line version for the comm link but it just doesn't work with the Ambush theme you know? I love the idea of just happening on a bunch of grots in a field and then BAM you're surrounded and getting dive bombed.

Perhaps the way to do this is to focus on the "Air Cav" Warkoptas, and skimp on the jets until I'm at a higher points level. I could add more bustas, kit out the red skulls properly, and maybe even another unit of grots.

but.... dakka jets...

I’m fairly new to orks, but I’ve been a long time SW player and even before 7th edition when our TWC became death stars my strategy was not far from what you’re talking about, and it worked to great effect. I was already thinking about what sort of cav or fast attack I could use with my ork army that would allow the bulk of my foot slogs to make it up the field. As a beginner I was going to go with a few trukks since that seemed to be the easy route and either run some bikes or koptas up the field to keep their ranged threats busy for a turn or two? With supporting fire from my lootas, shokk attack gun and stompa on higher pt. games.

For the purposes of simply getting in the slop as fast as humanly possible, I find it hard to believe much can beat Stormboyz with a Waaagh. They are another unit I've really tried to find a way to build into this list but just couldn't at the points. 15 - 20 of those guys are going to be fighting whatever you want in turn 2. Send 'em against ranged threats and you don't even need the PK nob really. Right? I mean this is all theoretical for me.

Deepstriking them would be cool too, but you can't charge! I think that's something that needs to be tweaked. Outflankers and deepstrikers should be able to come on the board turn 1 so there's hope of a turn 2 charge. Or just let them charge for god sake. I mean there's variable charge distance, AND overwatch. Getting stuck in is tough enough as it is.

Plus they might be the best kit that GW makes. They're beauties. I bought some off kijiji even though I don't currently have a use for them.

For me, who you’re playing can also be a factor with how I deploy. I’ve been to tournaments and have realized that my opponent is inexperienced against my army, so I do my best to scare them into targeting something (like stormboyz). Just the fact that on turn one he suddenly has a squad that is potentially getting a secondary by being in his deployment zone, in position to maybe attack his not cc strong unit (Long Fangs maybe?) that squad of stormboyz just became a lot more threatening than they look on paper. I can bet you they’ll probably devote a unit or two to trying to take them out. That’s at least one less unit firing on my boyz, and if I land right, it’s usually two.

It is a a very interesting theme and worth you continue to explore it !

Yeah, I see one of two things happening re: what my opponent does - either get the hell away from the board edge, or hug it and deny me any space to deploy on it. Basically he could move up to the centre of the board and hang out there. But a benefit of the Red Skulls is that since they're not shooting anyway (as they'd lose their cover re-roll) they'll likely be running. So that would put me somewhere near a second turn charge after they appear - assuming there's something he doesn't want to go towards on the other side.

The original, original thought was that when combined with the Armada, moving towards the opposite board edge would put him in danger of bombing runs. Not really an issue here, though I suppose he wouldn't want to move vehicles too close to the bustas.

I hear ya on the ADL, but I refuse to use it for this particular list as it doesn't really match the style. This is meant to be an ambush or a strike - not an army manning a stuck in position.

Also to the previous point about ICs joining the formation - I read further as it didn't sit right with me - there is an exhausting thread on it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/611160.page ... This warseer thread kinda clinches it on page 7 for me http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?410108-Can-you-join-ICs-to-Formations-and-then-do-they-gain-the-Rules-of-the-Formation/page7

Basically two schools of thought here: ICs join the unit, and the formation confers a special rule to the unit, therefore the IC gets the formation special rule unlike when an IC usually joins a unit and does not get their special rules. However the second school, and one I find persuasive despite really wishing it wasn't - points out that ICs explicitly state that they never get the unit's special rule - and that there are only special rules not "formation special rules." Also to the point, they are not part of the formation, but are joined to it - and a model cannot be part of more than one formation. Therefore they don't get it and cannot deploy with Snikrot and Co. This seems to be the consensus across a couple forum debates I've read.

So basically no I don't think I can slap a couple Warbosses into the Red Skulls formation and deploy them together. It also seems to defeat the spirit of a formation - ie: deploy this shiz together and get these cool bonuses. Anywho - don't want to ignite that debate again as it was pretty contentious, but it sure seems to me that firing some ICs into the Red Skulls, although super awesome in concept, would be a dubious application of the rules.

In light of this and the whole powerklaw getting challenged issue, I'm wondering if the Red Skulls may not be better suited as a MSU play? IE: only max out Snikrot's unit with 15 boyz and a Klaw (Snikrot himself being the one to accept the challenges, and likely die) The other three go minimum sized with burnas or rokkits to harass or scare the enemy. This would free up quite a bit of points, but really screw with my theme, and also lead me to need to figure out where the hell to take this.

How useless are PKs with no one there to accept a challenge on their behalf? I suppose it depends on what they're fighting?

Consider though that their argument doesn't necessarily apply in full here. Its more complicated [or rather simple] then that.

For example joining an D lord to harvest wraiths formation (which all formations are detachments) does not give him Fleet from adaptive subroutines, BUT he can join them regardless because the core rules says so and theres no restriction for this in the formation. Similar thing here.

Now if the red skulls were infiltrating it would be a different story because that would preclude an IC without that USR from joining them, but they're not. They are outflanking from reserve and ICs can join squads that outflank. He wouldn't benefit from stealth personally but its really a non issue. Of course it gets convoluted real quick now days like with GKs and rites of teleportation. The obvious part is an allied IC joined to a deep striking GK unit would arrive turn 1 from DS reserve and no one disputes this which is about as close to what you want to do as you can get. However, the big debate is if an IC with RoT joins a battle bro does THAT unit get to arrive turn 1 also? In this case that has been addressed by forcing snikrot to join a formation unit only. Done.

Either way though joining ICs may be prohibited in some instances (not here) but joining non 'independent' characters like meks is almost never prohibited since they essentially become part of the unit for all purposes.

So tldr your strats fine if you wan't to include some characters. Also on mobs, IMO boyz mobs or equivalent meant for combat at all need a PK nob and a mek bare minimum. When I run orks my mobs always start with HQ, nob- pk, mek. Then go from there.

Thanks again for the well thought out reply.

The thing is they're not really outflanking... They're using the "sneaky gits" special rule and must do so. The special rule they use is specific to the formation.

Interestingly, both of the above cited threads deal with the situation of an IC joining a formation and then arguing for a thousand years about whether they can come on turn 1. The rub was always that they could deepstrike, sure, but not fancy stuff like being able to charge first turn as that was a special formation rule that they didn't explicitly share in.

Also, the meks can only join units from their own formation, that one is written clearly.

This other stuff is needlessly complicated though... and although I could be like some and argue that it's cool to join the IC... well then I'd need to constantly argue it and that's no fun. Ish like that is probably one of the reasons I lost interest to start with.

This would make an easy enough faq topic you'd figure. In MY day Andy Chambers would just make something up on the back page of white dwarf.

Ditch both Planes and bring 2 squads of Lootas, It will give you some Anti Air and medium Anti Tank as well as a decent ranged weapon you can start on the table to help hold the line while your grots just sit their fighting amongst themselves. Lootas are unfortunately one of our better units right now....failing lootas as someone else suggest a battery of Mek Gunz is good. 5 Kannonz only costs like 90pts so you could bring 15 and be good to go and upgrade some to Anti air

The thing is they're not really outflanking... They're using the "sneaky gits" special rule and must do so. The special rule they use is specific to the formation.

Thats what I get for typing without referencing exact wording huh. The point was joining ICs is allowed under the rules for ICs and reserves. There is no language in sneaky gitz to say what happens when you legally inform your opponent that your joining ICs to units from the RS formation, same with rites etc.
That said If you feel you'll have to argue that ad infinitum then I'd pass but round here its accepted practice.

Also, the meks can only join units from their own formation, that one is written clearly.

Ugh that I did forget. Silly ork dex. Probably the worse part. Ah well at least they can take 2 burnas each.

Good luck hope you enjoy your return.

Hey man, it's all good. Mostly it just seems ambiguous, and with ambiguity comes silly conflict. If wherever I wind up gaming is cool with it, there's no reason I can't add stuff - but if I build it with that in mind and I have to squabble then it's not worth it.

Thanks for all the feedback though. I'm really thinking hard about what direction I should go with this. Maybe just drop 8 burnas in the backfield and be happy w that haha.