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Is there conventional wisdom on the maximum ratio of support units or force multipliers in a list? Does it vary by faction?

For instance for Khador I want to run a WGDS. For me this means adding the unit attachment and Kovnik Joe, a caster that benefits infantry such as Sorscha2 or Irusk2. in a min 15 point list that's a quarter of my points, plus a caster, dedicated to support rather than beating face directly.

For Legion the ratio seems lower, I'm spending 1-3 points on fury management in 25 or 35 point lists.

For Menoth, it looks like a 2 point choir in a 15 point list, and a choir and covenant for 4 points at 35.

Whaddya think?

In my 50 point sorscha2 list, I have, at most, 6 points of pure support. Sylys, the gobber, and mechanics. Sorscha herself is certainly not just support, she's a constant threat. Offensively freezing people, threatening her feat/assassination, definitely not just support. There are some models that wear 2 hats, like Kovnik Joe, Valachev, Widowmaker Marksman, but they also do good work themselves. At lower points it's harder, but when you hit 50 you have much more space.

Also it's very caster dependent. Lots of Haley2 lists have more support than Irusk1 lists, for example.

Your average Cygnar list has a minimum of 4-7 of support. The choices of Squire, Reinholdt, Rhupert, Gorman, Junior, Jonas & Anastasia are too good to ignore, that's 14 points of game changers there, not to mention some of the UA's completely change your unit (I'm looking at you Gun Mages, Stormblades & Precursors).

Hell, Rangers are a 5pt support unit!! And most of our casters are all about support.

Menoth you will usually see on top of what you mentioned, double choir, hierophant, wracks & multiple vassels. And two of their key units (Errants & Zealots) don't leave home without their UA's

See I guess this is where the definition of "support" varies. To me, the Gun Mage UA isn't support, nor is the Stormblade UA. But to you they may be.

4 points of support is on the low end for Menoth. I usually have at least 6 points at least; though In my current pSevvy list I have 16 points of support. Choir, 1x Vassal, Rhupert, Covenant, Tristan, Wracks, Heirophant, Gorman(I count him as support as he spends most of his time dropping clouds).

tigerstyle wrote:

Menoth you will usually see on top of what you mentioned, double choir, hierophant, wracks & multiple vassels. And two of their key units (Errants & Zealots) don't leave home without their UA's

I don't really see double choir that often, and when I do it's never double max choir unless the Menoth player is brand new and then I try to talk them out of it. You pretty much never need more than a max choir, and even then I rarely take more than a min except in my eFeora list with 4 heavies.

It definitely varies a lot between factions and even different lists. Some of my Legion lists only have 3-5 points of support (depending on whether you count a Shredder as "support") while others have up to 12-14.

In a Protectorate list, I might devote as much as 8-10 points to support at 50 points.

Of course, UAs don't count as support really.

The only support I have is usually Choir, Vassals, Rupert, and the Covenant. And the Covenant isn't purely support. It has good offensive projection with its anti-spell ability. And I very rarely run double Choir. Only in my Durst list really.

Likewise, stuff like Kovnik Joe isn't a pure support piece. He still has personal offensive power.

I generally consider support to be standalone models which are primarily in the list to provide buffs (or occasionally debuffs). UA's kinda fall into this category, but to me are just another part of the unit (they also tend to have better damage output than the Grunts).

As a Ret player we don't have that much in the way of support, all our units need to work together but there aren't the same kind of direct buff units like the Choir. I usually spend 4-5pts on support, but often have lists which only have 1-2pts (usually just two Arcanists). Artificers, Houseguard Thane, Sylys, Lanyessa, A+H and Arcanists are the only support we have and its rare to see more than 3 of those in one list.

Powerguy wrote:
I generally consider support to be standalone models which are primarily in the list to provide buffs (or occasionally debuffs). UA's kinda fall into this category, but to me are just another part of the unit (they also tend to have better damage output than the Grunts).

My definition of support model is similar, but coming from the other side: A model which, if successfully removed, reduces the expected damage output of other models. For instance, Kovnik Joe and the WGI Unit attachments might as well be waving flags saying kill me. Legion fury management pieces wear similar flags. Under this definition, things like Ogryn Warspear UA and Solo also count, despite their own impressive damage output, because their removal means the accompanying Ogryn (Ogor? Ogre? Ogrun?) warspears are suddenly much less potent.

I guess all casters technically count for this definition, cause killing them generally ends the game, but they don't count towards the ratio, because they are mandatory and don't cost points.

Is there a better way of thinking about such points of vulnerability in a list than a support ratio?

I would look at the definition of a support piece as something that has no other aspect than to enhance another model or unit.

Like the shepards of legion. They don't do much of anything on their own and exist solely to aid the caster in fury management.

Sometimes models can enhance other models/units but if the model itself is functional as an offensive piece in and of itself then it is not a support piece to my way of thinking.

A stormblade captain fits into this mold. He is a weapon master with a pretty impressive offensive capablity of his own. That he makes other stormnouns better is icing on the cake.

So my question is, is a Naga Nightlurker a support model? It's primary purpose in a list is to provide Wraithbane, but it also has a magical untyped gun for killing annoying solos like Pistol Wraiths and Gorman.

Its only partially support because it can also fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its only partially support because it can also fight.

I classify a support model as:

A model I take for their friendly benefits more than their offensive power.

I mean almost any model in the game *can* fight but a support piece I am taking not to fight but to help someone else fight.

I consider deathrippers support pieces. Sure they have an atatck & CAN fight, but their primary role is as a Df 15 arc node to support your caster.

I would actually say Death rippers can't really fight. All the bone chickens are just hidiously pillowfisted.

Convergence requires a lot of support, but too much and you weaken your fighting force. I set up for one game and partway through the first turn I realized I had way too much support. :(
It didn't go well.

 motyak wrote:
See I guess this is where the definition of "support" varies. To me, the Gun Mage UA isn't support, nor is the Stormblade UA. But to you they may be.

Nearly all UAs are a combination, with some ability to fight (usually just as good or better than a grunt) and some support. The Gun Mage UA has a RAT8 rune shot, but you buy him for the Mage Sight and "jack Marshal abilities, not the extra shot. The stormblade UA is one of the fightiest UAs, in that both the Officer and Standard bearer have (really good) weapons, but both also lend a support element to the list. And Stormblades are secretly cheap at 6 boys for 5pts, while the UA is a 3pt UA. You're buying support with them. Very, very good support.

To look at a model as only of one "type" means you limit the way you will use that model in the game.

For example, Cygnar's Journeyman Warcaster. The JWC fits all the definitions of a "support" model seen so far in this thread. The JWC is a "Arcane Shield" buffer, and not much else. Yet the JWC is a Warcaster, and can have a battlegroup, control area, has 3 focus, and has Arcane Bolt in addition to Arcane Shield. Finally, the JWC has a Mechanika Blade and a Hand Cannon. A Range 12 POW 12 Hand Cannon. Yes, the JWC has a MAT/RAT of 5/4, but he can boost. And boosted POW 12's can will Warcasters! In other words, if you look at the JWC as "only" an Arcane Shield battery, you miss out on the fact that he can boost his Hand Cannon to potentially kill the enemy Warcaster. Or some other solo or model (perhaps something that is blocking a charge lane?). It's all the rage these days to take a JWC and give him a Stormwall of all things to play with- to free up a Warcaster to use his/her focus elsewhere.

My point is, you have to look at ALL the possibilities a model presents. Never just look at a model and think it can only do one thing. The interwebz are full of stories about how a Choir of Menoth managed to kill a Warcaster/Warlock, or a Swamp Gobber, or whatever.

How much support? I don't look at it that way. I look at it as "How will this model help me win the game?" and "How can I use this model to win the game?"

That's really important to keep in mind, but pieces like the Junior and Swamp Gobbers are pretty clearly support that can also do work. Much the same way that Silverline do work, but also add some support.

So you are correct, but you want to keep in mind what in your list can do heavy lifting, and what cannot. When playing, you need to look at what the models can actually do, and be prepared to use them however you can.

For example, I find myself including Ranger's in more of my Cygnar lists, even those without a lot of shooting. Yes, Mark target is a nice piece of support, but I also look at them, and see Speed 7, Def 14 models with pathfinder that make great jammers. With decent rat and pow, they can also shoot other jammers pretty effectively. So They're a unit I now see less as support, and a more nuanced unit. Of course, I still don't buy them for the work they do, but I'm aware of what they do in a way I was not prior.

On the flip side, don't be the guy that forgets that Skorne Paingivers have Anatomical Precision and reach! He looked at my Precusor Knights under shield wall, and didn't think he'd do any damage, so he held them back.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I would actually say Death rippers can't really fight. All the bone chickens are just hidiously pillowfisted.

I somewhat disagree. The bone chickens can do things on their own other than act as arcnodes. However, the arcnode ability is just usually so much better and in the case of a Death Ripper they can't arcnode if they are stuck in melee.

I really like nightwretches because they actually have a boostable high POW gun that can also be given an AOE. And you can use it and still arcnode.

Part of what I think makes them more useful on the offense is that no one ever expects it. There's been a handful of times where the arcnode gets shot off, but you still have a viable combatant.

They can also fill the role of objective grabber since their high DEF makes them difficult to hit and their sheer speed.

I've also heard people consider using them as a jamming or part of a jamming unit. Eh, maybe. But Cryx has better things for that. But maybe as a 3rd or 4th role?