Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The space marine is the epitome of human perfection and superior in every way to the normal human. It is the embodiment of the Übermensch (German for "Overman, Overhuman, Above-Human, Superman, Superhuman, Ultraman, Ultrahuman, Beyond-Man) in Nazi and Nietzsche philosophy. Hence other non-space marine humans or inferiors cannot give orders to a superhuman. It would be like an sub-human Neanderthal giving orders to a genius super powerful highly evolved being. It is like a uneducated slave ordering around his wealthy master. It is against natural law.

Space Marines were inspired by Starship Troopers the original 1950s novel (not the movie) which had very Fascist overtones of citizens and non-citizens and superhumans. I'm not just quoting Nazi philosophy or the concept that 1 German Soldier was the equal of 100 sub-human soldiers but the fluff establishes that the space marines are superman. And superman have the will to power. The term Übermensch was used frequently by the Nazis to describe their idea of a biologically superior master race or in this case the Space Marine. The Nazi idea of the supermen also spawned the idea of "inferior humans" (Untermenschen) which could be dominated and enslaved which in this case are the normal humans.

Shouldn't space marines take over the Imperium and force their inferiors to serve them? All of humanity should be made subservient to the space marine and worship them as instruments of the Emperor's divine will like how the Pope in Rome is in today's world for Catholics. The Space Marines could easily kill the merely human High Lords of Terra and overthrow the religious orders. The Admech and the human military guard would submit to the space marine or be destroyed.

Humanity will be lead solely by the Space Marines as highly superior beings. Why haven't the Space Marines chapters figured this out yet that they basically are gods among monkeys? Why should monkeys lead a god? The monkeys and ants should serve them. It is the nature way of the universe.

I'm wondering if IRL when we created superhumans we are eventually creating our own masters and enslaving ourselves to the future Übermensch. Chinese eugenics today are recreating the vision of the Nazi scientists in the 40s for the furtherment of humanity.

No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)

It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.

Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.

 Swastakowey wrote:
No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)

It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.

Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.

From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?

no because the adeptus custodes would be far better leaders posessing no emotions to sway, a billion times better physical bodies and skills.

 ionusx wrote:
no because the adeptus custodes would be far better leaders posessing no emotions to sway, a billion times better physical bodies and skills.

Ok fine but they are just another type of superman. So we're in agreement that normal citizens and mere humans of the imperium are not fit to rule themselves and should all be slaves to the Custodians and Space Marines?

Why on earth would humanity serve the Space Marines?

There are practically none of them, they're one of the rarest things in the universe. So few as to realistically be effectively non-existent in terms of galaxy wide wars, with hundreds of millions, if not billions, of normal human soldiers to each Space Marine who may individually be worth maybe a dozen human soldiers. They die to heavy weapons fire like artillery, plasma fire, orbital bombardments, tank cannon, etc almost as easily as naked humans.

A Space Marine is superior in terms of physical ability, but that only matters in certain circumstances. Space Marines likewise are not necessarily any more mentally competent than normal humans, though perhaps better educated thanks to hypno-indoctrination than your average hive-worker. There are psykers and geniuses amongst normal human populations that can rival or exceed those found amongst the Space Marines, and in far greater numbers since, well, there's a whole lot more normal humans.

Most importantly, Space Marines have shown that, by and large, they're no better at ruling or keeping things in line than anyone else. Fully half the original Space Marines turned traitor. Over fifty full post-heresy Chapters have turned traitor, and innumerable companies, squads, and individual Space Marines have done so as well, either in the service of Chaos or to reign on their own as pirates and marauders.

In fact, this is a large part of what caused the Heresy, as many Space Marines thought (or realized) that once the Great Crusade was completed, they'd really have no further use and purpose.

The Horus Heresy is very much like the bible story of Lucifer rebellion with God. The Angels were created to protect mankind just as the Astartes were created to protect mankind. When an Angel or Astartes's attitude changes and thinks himself superior to man then he is corrupted by evil/chaos.

DorianGray wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)

It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.

Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.

From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?

Because those Monkeys outnumber them a billion or so to one, and even these so-caleld supermen would realize that they would have the complete and utter heck beat out of them. They wouldn't have control over the entire Imperial Navy, so good luck controlling the spacewyas when your cruisers are busy fighting all of the rest of the Imperial's space navy. They don't own any of the titans or the Imperial Knights, which would liquify them to heck. The Admech would probably massacre them with Phosphor rounds while the Dreadnought get the heck beaten out of them by Admech robots. Then we have the utterly huge Imperial Guard, with arguably much better vehicles, sheer numbers, and Power-armour ignoring Stormtroopers. Adepta Sororitas to flame them to death. Also, the Inquisition because Nobody Expects the Inquisition! Seriously though, the Inquisition is so good that they on their own almost wiped out the Space Wolves, an entire chapter of Marines and arguably one of the most powerful.

Also, SM are only the perfect physical specimen, not the mental one. And as Vaktahi pointed out, Chaos loves turning these gys to the dark side. Serously, nobody is surprised when Humans turn, because "Humans are weak", but half of their pre-heresy numbers? Fifty post-heresy chapters? One must wonder if the SM gene-seed has a genetic weakness of being extremely suspectible to chaos taint.

Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans. Read the codex. They are SMARTER. Their superhuman intelligence is why they have higher BS and WS than even the best guardmen.

Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.

If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.

DorianGray wrote:
Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans.

Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.

If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.

If they were the superior human beings, why are they in essentially what is the equivalant of a civil war with themselves in which they have to rely on these "useless" monkeys to help just barely keep on the brink of survival! Why are they unable to take down several race of aliens that are not much physically different from these "useless" monkeys! They don't even have an armored vehicle with an AV of 14 (probably even 13)! They have no acsess to Titans outside of those "Useless" Monkeys! THye ave a very small navy without the help of those "Useless" monkeys! THye would be unable to properly garrison the entire space empire without the help of those "useless" monkeys!

DorianGray wrote:
Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans.

Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.

If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.

Are they?

If you think about it, how far can a Space Marine run if he has to fuel such a large body? Cattle, Sheep and Goats tend to spend most of their time eating as they move around, it is likely Space Marines need very frequent food breaks. This means they need humans to fuel their "amazing speed" with human farming and produce.

Are they Smarter? I mean, 99% of pictures I see of Space Marines have them fighting in close quarters or on hills in giant battle lines, for such a rare creature these tactics seem rather fatal. Talking about Combat, Space Marines hands are so huge they likely cannot operate fine machinery which undeniably fuels their impractical weaponry and gear. Again one of their strengths is a liability if they had to try take over.

Stronger? Well that's all well and good, but again many insects are stronger and "smarter" than ants... but ants win 99% of their battles with other insects. Why? Superior numbers, the knowledge of how to best use their numbers and all in all just a superior community.

Space Marines individually may be scary, but in context of the human empire they are pitiful slaves who need us to function. We arguably don;t even need them, they are there because we allow them to be.

DorianGray wrote:
Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans.

Faster, Stronger? Sure. Smarter? Nothing about in their geneseed does anything to enhance intelligence. They are trained in how best to utilize their intelligence and hypno-indoctrinated with vast amounts of knowledge, but are not fundamentally more intelligent than anyone else beyond whatever minimum bar would prevent them from passing trials to becoming a Space Marine (e.g. being too stupid to duck, not recognizing traps, etc).

If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.

That's some rather absurd thinking. They're physically powerful, but the Space Marines have shown over 10,000 years that, by and large, they're no wiser, intelligent, etc than normal humans.

Again, half the original batch of Space Marines turned traitor, and significant numbers of post-heresy Marines have as well. Even amongst the loyalists, many (if not most) simply rule over feudal, backwards societies on the homeworlds they were granted like primitive medieval lords. When they break free from the Imperium, they almost always operate as simple pirates or petty local warlords, or they fall to Chaos.

Also, as noted, they're largely helpless by themselves. and require huge numbers of serfs (or slaves) to do many day to day things for them.

And, again, they're outnumbered to such a degree that that even if you took every combatant from every power of every conflict of the 20th century, including both world wars, you still probably wouldn't have enough to match how outnumbered each individual Space Marine is.

 saithor wrote:

DorianGray wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)

It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.

Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.

From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?

Because those Monkeys outnumber them a billion or so to one, and even these so-caleld supermen would realize that they would have the complete and utter heck beat out of them. They wouldn't have control over the entire Imperial Navy, so good luck controlling the spacewyas when your cruisers are busy fighting all of the rest of the Imperial's space navy. They don't own any of the titans or the Imperial Knights, which would liquify them to heck. The Admech would probably massacre them with Phosphor rounds while the Dreadnought get the heck beaten out of them by Admech robots. Then we have the utterly huge Imperial Guard, with arguably much better vehicles, sheer numbers, and Power-armour ignoring Stormtroopers. Adepta Sororitas to flame them to death. Also, the Inquisition because Nobody Expects the Inquisition! Seriously though, the Inquisition is so good that they on their own almost wiped out the Space Wolves, an entire chapter of Marines and arguably one of the most powerful..

What makes you think the other branches of the Terran military would side against them? They know the Space Marines are superior to them, many would side with them and recognise them as Gods. The Navy? 5 Space Marine Terminators could teleport into the bridge of every space cruiser and terminate the crew. 1 Space Marine could take on 1 million guardsman. The rest would give up. The Admech? Their robot soldiers are dull and cannot match the flexibility and tactics of superman. Also the Admech are few in number and less than the Space Marines. The sisters are battle are just normal humans in suits they would be smashed to a pulp. The Knights crew would be killed without even getting a chance to enter their titans.

The Space Marines could take over the IoM in one large massive rebellion overthrowing the government of normal humans and replacing them with superman.

Astartes by their very nature are flawed, they have to be to be able to continuously fight like they do, they are obsessed with honours and traditions that serve little purpose other than to ensure they never stop being ready for difficult combat

They have shown multiple times to not be capable of commanding more than their own forces and sometimes a planet and even then mostly struggle to interact with the humans, Only the Ultramarines have ever held a successful non-corrupted region of space together and that has been down to that being a tradition of theirs for TEN THOUSAND YEARS

The Astartes aren't cut out for leading non military humans

DorianGray wrote:

 saithor wrote:

DorianGray wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)

It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.

Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.

From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?

Because those Monkeys outnumber them a billion or so to one, and even these so-caleld supermen would realize that they would have the complete and utter heck beat out of them. They wouldn't have control over the entire Imperial Navy, so good luck controlling the spacewyas when your cruisers are busy fighting all of the rest of the Imperial's space navy. They don't own any of the titans or the Imperial Knights, which would liquify them to heck. The Admech would probably massacre them with Phosphor rounds while the Dreadnought get the heck beaten out of them by Admech robots. Then we have the utterly huge Imperial Guard, with arguably much better vehicles, sheer numbers, and Power-armour ignoring Stormtroopers. Adepta Sororitas to flame them to death. Also, the Inquisition because Nobody Expects the Inquisition! Seriously though, the Inquisition is so good that they on their own almost wiped out the Space Wolves, an entire chapter of Marines and arguably one of the most powerful..

What makes you think the other branches of the Terran military would side against them? They know the Space Marines are superior to them, many would side with them and recognise them as Gods. The Navy? 5 Space Marine Terminators could teleport into the bridge of every space cruiser and terminate the crew.

They have to get close, and shields have to be down., Guess what generally outranges Space Marine warships? Imperial Navy warships, which also vastly outnumber them.

1 Space Marine could take on 1 million guardsman.

Huh? Where on earth are you getting such an absurd number. Even Rogal Dorn suggested his Space Marines were the equal of perhaps 10 human soldiers.

The rest would give up. The Admech? Their robot soldiers are dull and cannot match the flexibility and tactics of superman. Also the Admech are few in number and less than the Space Marines.

The AdMech are not fewer in number.

The Knights crew would be killed without even getting a chance to enter their titans.

Care to explain exactly how that would come to pass?

The Space Marines could take over the IoM in one large massive rebellion overthrowing the government of normal humans and replacing them with superman.

And yet they failed when they tried There is conclusive proof of failure.

Well its not my fantasy as I like girls

Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans. Read the codex. They are SMARTER. Their superhuman intelligence is why they have higher BS and WS than even the best guardmen.

Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.

If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.

Haven't you read the two previous posts?

SM may be considered as gods by normal imperial soldiers or citizens but in the eyes of the Lords of Terra, who ultimately decide whether or not new SM chapters should be created, they are merely a weapon, a high precision tool they can use to help regular forces to win. SM are created by Imperial political power, they don't own it.

Plus, individual strengh is nuts in the military balance. Who cares about your higher BS (not higher than an IG Vet or a stormtrooper that being said) when you have a small fleet, limited armour and next to zero artillery? The last military leaders who though ubermenschen would never lose against the rest of humanity because of their inborn superiority were Nazis. Too bad they did not know sh*t about industrial war and strategic-scale operations.

PS: are you Matt Ward's hidden son?

Was going to respond, but Vaktahi beat it to me. Thank you Vak. In all serioussness, The Space Marines are the genetic perfection of human strength, but that is till not a match for sheer numbers, or the fact that guess who manufactures almost all of the SM armory. Monkeys. Good luck fighting on when you can't even get new suit of armour or even a new bolter each time they get broken or destroyed. No new Rhinos, Predators, Flyers, Warships, Dreadnoughts, etc., etc.

Oh, and for the IoM knowing that Space Marines are always superior. I'm sure the Inquisition and the Officio Assainoroum would like argue that considering they were winning a secret underground war agaisnt the space wolves while at the same time keeping up their regular duties across the period. Also, the IoM fights Chaos Space Marines all the time, if they are capable of fighting CSM without immediatly bowing down to them, I'm pretty sure they'll resist the urge with the regular ones. As for the Adepta Sororitas, they want revenge for the paint incident.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans. Read the codex. They are SMARTER. Their superhuman intelligence is why they have higher BS and WS than even the best guardmen.

Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.

If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.

Haven't you read the two previous posts?

SM may be considered as gods by normal imperial soldiers or citizens but in the eyes of the Lords of Terra, who ultimately decide whether or not new SM chapters should be created, they are merely a weapon, a high precision tool they can use to help regular forces to win. SM are created by Imperial political power, they don't own it.

Plus, individual strengh is nuts in the military balance. Who cares about your higher BS (not higher than an IG Vet or a stormtrooper that being said) when you have a small fleet, limited armour and next to zero artillery? The last military leaders who though ubermenschen would never lose against the rest of humanity because of their inborn superiority were Nazis. Too bad they did not know sh*t about industrial war and strategic-scale operations.

The high lords of terra can be killed and replaced by either Chapter Lords or other humans serving the will of the Superman. You forget that just by mere presence and declaration SM Chapters could sway entire systems to their hypothetical rebellion and have mere humans serve them. SM lead by their rebel human servants could easily combat the SM-less Imperium.

A full SM rebellion and plot to overthrow humanity would be incredibly destructive in the least and probably succeed.

Your answer to every argument is "meh, they can be killed by SM anyway". But your Mary Sue superhuman can't be everywhere at one time.

I don't think you will convince anybody with that. Though, I do concede that a SM rebellion would upset the Imperium pretty badly. But ultimately, they would fail to strategic odds.

Ok, quick mental excersise here. The Imperium standard pattern Lascannon is going to more often than not kill one space marine if aimed at him. There are a few million space marines max. The Imperium can produce billions of Lascannons and have the numbers to man all of them. There. And again, if the Supermen reel, who is going to manufacture their stuff again? The SM lack the ability to manufacture enough new wgear to keep up with combat losses, outside of the salamanders.

Their balls don't work. Übermensch my ass.

I'm saying a billion + humans will recognise the superiority of the SM and join their rebellion against the imperium. So it is not just the SM themselves now it is billions of normal humans too.

You are thinking to yourself why would a normal human willingly become a slave to supermen?

1. If you don't you will die.
2. You underestimate the willingness of people to look for a leader or overarching god to led them. Think of the support for the Monarchy in modern day England or support of Vladimir Putin who rules Russia with an iron fist.
3. They might think life under the supermen would be better than life under the status quo. (It won't but you know...)
4. Only the SM could save them from the corruption and threat to humanity like nids, Orks, Chaos. They are better suited to led against these threats than the high lords who probably never even been in combat,

So hundreds upon hundreds of hive worlds, agri worlds, and forge worlds could join their side and supply them with auxiliary troops to use as cannon fodder, weapons, supplies, everything.

ANd what is a billion reported to the scale of the Imperium?

Unfortunately, the Imperium already has a god, the Emperor. One who is far more prevalent, more mentioned and more known than any Chapter Master could hope to be on a galactic scale.

 curran12 wrote:
Unfortunately, the Imperium already has a god, the Emperor. One who is far more prevalent, more mentioned and more known than any Chapter Master could hope to be on a galactic scale.

The SM rebellion would say they are the instrument of his will. He created them. The emperor is on a throne and is functionally dead, the SM can accurately say it is the will of the Emperor for them to rule and guide mankind (as slaves).

DorianGray wrote:
I'm saying a billion + humans will recognise the superior of the SM and join their rebellion against the imperium. So it is not just the SM themselves now it is billions of normal humans too.

You are thinking to yourself why would a normal human willingly become a slave to supermen?

1. If you don't you will die.
2. You underestimate the willingness of people to look for a leader or overarching god to led them. Think of the support for the Monarchy in modern day England or support of Vladimir Putin who rules Russia with an iron fist.
3. They might think life under the supermen would be better than life under the status quo.

Yes, because who knows what compelling leaders the Imperium could possibly have. All of those Cadians are obviously going to chose some unknown over Creed, same for the Steel Legion and Yarrick, and practically evey other guard regiment and it's leaders. And I'm sure all of those inquisitors, comissars, and their henchmen have obiouvly secretly believed that it is the Space Marines and not the emperor that should be in charge and worshipped. Also, as for life under the supermen being better than that under that Staus Quo, who do you think has helped ensure the Status Quo?

Neither of the greatest 2 commanders in history of the Imperium were space marines. That should tell you something.

To add to Saithor's claims : The Ecclesiarchy would totally let imperial citizens do that. And these people would totally follow some unknwon space traitors in power armour while they live everyday side by side with the Administratum, which is by contrast a very tangible organization.

DorianGray wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Unfortunately, the Imperium already has a god, the Emperor. One who is far more prevalent, more mentioned and more known than any Chapter Master could hope to be on a galactic scale.

The SM rebellion would say they are the instrument of his will. He created them. The emperor is on a throne and is functionally dead, the SM can accurately say it is the will of the Emperor for them to rule and guide mankind (as slaves).

All right, you go back and tell them that the Space Marines rules their taking over the Imperium, Calgar. It's all over the papers. The High Lords are going to like that; so they’re going to call a bunch of their firends. Now you got the Inquisition and the Imperial Guard against ya and they're going to adore ya for it and they're going to say it with lasrounds. Oh, and the Admech are going to love ya too and the Schole Progneum and the Imperial Navy. Ho ho, Calgar, you're going to be an awful popular fella. And what about the Titan Legions? Why, they got at least a titan for every planet, and they’ve got more to spare. But you go ahead Calgar, you do it your way. You go on back in there and tell them that you rule that the Space Marines are taking over the Imperium. Go on. But if you do, remember this: you can count on getting just two votes, your own and that Primarch Vulcan's out there.