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Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

After a short texting battle with my longtime Ultramarine friend, he has come to the conclusion that the Emperor's Champion is just a tad overpowered...

Lemme explain.

My friend likes to spam Sternguard against my marines, due to having Ap3 rounds and 2+ to-wound rounds. So in our last game, I sent the Champ in after them, to give them a piece of my mind. In the first combat, he solo'd four of them on the charge, and the fifth man didn't break. The Ultra's turn came around, and due to assault, the EC couldn't be shot at, and nothing was in charge range. Combat once again ensues, and the EC kills the last guy in the unit, and consolidates towards a unit of four terminators (3 storm bolters, 1 assault cannon, 4 powerfists).

My turn. Ineffectual shooting (I only have one unit of marines left at this point, besides the EC, and they can't see gak). Emperor's champion bolt pistols a terminator, the termie rolls a 1 to save, and dies.
EC charges, survives the overwatch, and lucks out in killing the remaining three termies before they can even strike. Consolidates into cover, and towards more Sternguard.

Ultras turn, he gets shot by 10 sternguard, and dies.

My opponent's arguments are that:

-He typically hits on 3's

-He typically wounds on 2's ("not fair")

-He has Initiative 5 Ap 2 ("Nobody else gets Ap2 at initiative")

-He has 4 attacks on the charge ("It's a relic blade, it should be two-handed")

-He has 2+ armour ("Doesn't pay the points for it")

-He kills terminators with bolt pistols. Admittedly, he has done this twice in two games. ("My terminators never get to make their saves")
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

All Marine units are cheese....

But in this case no, your opponent is being a TFG. If he wants to argue then ask him how many points he pays for his Sternguard.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot





The EC is pretty fair for his point cost. He's still only 2 wounds on a T4 model. He can be ID just as easily as any other marine and can also be brought down by forcing him to make a lot of saves, i.e. Sternguard rapid firing special ammo.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/26 12:59:10


   
Made in gb
Revving Ravenwing Biker




England

It sounds like his judgment is getting clouded by his own bad rolls, particularly on the last part.

Also, there are quite a number of things that are at-initiative AP2, Calgar for one! (More examples, though from the Dark Angels Codex: Sammael, Deathwing Knights Smiting and the Deathwing Champion)
It's certainly rare but in no way exclusive to the Emperor's Champion.

Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted! 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

Glad to see I'm not the only one who disagrees
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

The champ seems reasonable to me. He’s got one less W/A then a captain, So his statline is good, but not over the top. He’s got a good selection of gear and rules, but I think they match his points.

As for AP 2 at int., there are a number of ways to get that, even in the marine codex. There is the Burning Blade relic, Calgar lost unwieldy on his fists, and dreads and assault cents can do it.

He’s a CC character is a CC army, he’s pretty good at his job. He costs as much as an ironclad dread, which also tends to mangle things. Sounds fair.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





The Emperor's Champion is one of the least "cheesy" units in the game really. He's a light combat monster - but that's all he'll ever be. Since he must accept any challenge, he can be taken out very easily by the REAL combat monsters in the game! Put him up against Assault Terminators with Storm Shields, or a Harlequin Solitaire, or even against Gazgkhull Thraka... see how long he lasts then.

Your opponent is just salty from some bad rolls. Unless the close combat unit can move insanely fast and is also insanely durable while also being able to take out nearly anything - no close combat unit in the game is cheesy.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Also, the Emperor's Champion is damn cool. He alone is the reason I want a contingent of Black Templar allies.

 Psienesis wrote:
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"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




In the fluff the EC is suppose to take down Chaos champions and greater demons in one on one duels. The EC is a good character but no way is he over powered. He's equivalent to a captain with similar equipment but less wounds. He excels in close combat which is what his purpose is.

You had a good run with him. It would have been better if your opponent has characters in the squads that you could have challenged. The bolt pistols kills are hilarious. Take what you can get



   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Yarium wrote:
Put him up against Assault Terminators with Storm Shields

He actually won that one. Admittedly, he used a 14-man crusader blob to hide from the hammers, but still. Thoroughly put out my other SM opponent.
 Yarium wrote:
Your opponent is just salty from some bad rolls. Unless the close combat unit can move insanely fast and is also insanely durable while also being able to take out nearly anything - no close combat unit in the game is cheesy.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Speaking as a guy who plays Harlequins... Other people get AP2 at initiative.

My codex contains two melee weapons that DONT get AP2 at initiative. And our initiative is like, seven.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Revving Ravenwing Biker




England

On a sidenote I wasn't sure which HQ unit I wanted to use for my future BT army.
I guess I now know the EC is a good choice!

Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted! 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Let's just answer every 'cheese' post all at once here.

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.

Everything is both cheesy and not cheesy simultaneously. A schrodinger's cheese, if you will.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
On a sidenote I wasn't sure which HQ unit I wanted to use for my future BT army.
I guess I now know the EC is a good choice!

Yeah, he's pretty cool

Eh pistols terminators and doesn't afeard of anything.
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Off the top of my head ap2 at initiative in the game:
-EC
-Dante
-Valors Edge
-Calgar
-Burning Blade
-Exarch with Scorpions claw
-Karendras
-Every dread or walker with a DCCW in the game
-Every MC in the game
-Warscythes
-Many Harlequin units
-Any weapon that has rending and rolls a 6 to wound
-Axe of Blind Fury
-Kharn
-Abaddon
-Cypher
-Callidus assassin
-Culexus assassin
-Any psyker with Iron arm cast

And I know there are a ton I've missed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/26 14:31:44


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

The EC isn't cheese there are far nastier things that get ap2 at initiative as Poly pointed out.

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Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

Just do what I do and Run a Daemonkin Lord with Axe of Ruin into his face. If he managed to survive or gun him down later on just sick the newly formed Bloodthirster after him....If he survives that, well, then we can systematically bat = face every Marine player out there

Life: An incomprehensible, endless circle of involuntary self-destruction.

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Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator





Poly Ranger wrote:
Off the top of my head ap2 at initiative in the game:
-EC
-Dante
-Valors Edge
-Calgar
-Burning Blade
-Exarch with Scorpions claw
-Karendras
-Every dread or walker with a DCCW in the game
-Every MC in the game
-Warscythes
-Many Harlequin units
-Any weapon that has rending and rolls a 6 to wound
-Axe of Blind Fury
-Kharn
-Abaddon
-Cypher
-Callidus assassin
-Culexus assassin
-Any psyker with Iron arm cast

And I know there are a ton I've missed.


Draigo, and Brotherhood Champions, and in previous editions literally every power weapon in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/26 15:57:16


I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





All Monstrous Creatures are AP2 at initiative.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Northern California

Forgot one: Dark Eldar Succubus with Archite Glaive

At least 5 S4 AP2 attacks at WS and Initiative 8. Combat drugs and warlord traits can buff this even further, Power From Pain gives FnP and Furious Charge by Turn 4.

There's also Incubi to consider as well as Lilith Hesperax, who just straight-up ignores armour saves.

Heralds of Khorne and Slaanesh can also make effective use of AP2 at Initiative: higher than yours.

At-Initiative AP2 is not as uncommon as people make it out to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/26 18:34:32


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Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Emperor's Champion...

Cheese...

WAT?


From what point is anything Black Templar even considered top-tier, let alone cheese?

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 master of ordinance wrote:
All Marine units are cheese....


   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

The EC isn't cheese even in anyones dreams.

Terminators are bad, due to having a high cost and requiring that single 1 in order to die. And yeah, your mate is tailoring against you by using Sternguard for their AP3 ammo asfar as I understood.

I'd never play an opponent who tailors, and I never tailor myself.

   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 Runic wrote:
The EC isn't cheese even in anyones dreams.

Terminators are bad, due to having a high cost and requiring that single 1 in order to die. And yeah, your mate is tailoring against you by using Sternguard for their AP3 ammo asfar as I understood.

I'd never play an opponent who tailors, and I never tailor myself.


Sternguard are a solid part of any list. List tailoring implies taking something to thwart a specific opponent. Sternguard are generically good against so many things, I can’t see cries of tailoring sticking here.

   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Runic wrote:
And yeah, your mate is tailoring against you by using Sternguard for their AP3 ammo asfar as I understood.
Yeah. I tried to explain TAC lists, and why tailoring is bad, and he just responded with "but why would I take flamers if you're using tanks?". He literally does not understand these concepts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
 Runic wrote:
The EC isn't cheese even in anyones dreams.

Terminators are bad, due to having a high cost and requiring that single 1 in order to die. And yeah, your mate is tailoring against you by using Sternguard for their AP3 ammo asfar as I understood.

I'd never play an opponent who tailors, and I never tailor myself.


Sternguard are a solid part of any list. List tailoring implies taking something to thwart a specific opponent. Sternguard are generically good against so many things, I can’t see cries of tailoring sticking here.
He doesn't use them much if I bring guard. Then he just spams Lascannons and meltas like feth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/26 19:17:48


 
   
Made in gb
Revving Ravenwing Biker




England

 TheNewBlood wrote:
At-Initiative AP2 is not as uncommon as people make it out to be.

I guess it's because it's rare in the more common or "normal" factions (like the various flavors of Marine) don't have very much of it at all.

Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted! 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 Selym wrote:
Yeah. I tried to explain TAC lists, and why tailoring is bad, and he just responded with "but why would I take flamers if you're using tanks?". He literally does not understand these concepts.

He doesn't use them much if I bring guard. Then he just spams Lascannons and meltas like feth.


OK, I stand corrected. It’s just sternguard are a healthy part of a well balanced TAC list.

If you have both guard and templars, just don’t tell him what list you are bringing. Armored might one day, black tide the next. Let him spend some time popping initiates with LCs or spanging special ammo off of russes until he learns to build a balanced list.

   
Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




 Selym wrote:
Yeah. I tried to explain TAC lists, and why tailoring is bad, and he just responded with "but why would I take flamers if you're using tanks?". He literally does not understand these concepts.
He might just feel he doesn't have a chance without doing so. He also sounds like he lacks either experience with the game or nerve.

In fact, there's absolutely nothing wrong with list tailoring if both players agree on the choices. Then it's just trying to balance the game player-side, like Sigmar which has no points. Not sure of your friend's motivations but if you don't like it you need to hash it out with him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/26 20:00:10


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






If the Emp's Champ is cheese then I would hate to know what he thinks about Crowe. Reroll 2+/4++ saves, WS extreme, AP2 at I6, ML2 Psyker with Hammerhand and Cleansing Flame, etc.

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Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

Yoyoyo wrote:
 Selym wrote:
Yeah. I tried to explain TAC lists, and why tailoring is bad, and he just responded with "but why would I take flamers if you're using tanks?". He literally does not understand these concepts.
He might just feel he doesn't have a chance without doing so. He also sounds like he lacks either experience with the game or nerve.

In fact, there's absolutely nothing wrong with list tailoring if both players agree on the choices. Then it's just trying to balance the game player-side, like Sigmar which has no points. Not sure of your friend's motivations but if you don't like it you need to hash it out with him.
He's been playing since about 2005, and against tons of people. It's quite rare that he loses.

 Vankraken wrote:
If the Emp's Champ is cheese then I would hate to know what he thinks about Crowe. Reroll 2+/4++ saves, WS extreme, AP2 at I6, ML2 Psyker with Hammerhand and Cleansing Flame, etc.
Probably would spend the game bitching about how the Ultramarines don't get I6. There's a lot of stuff he'll label cheese simply because Ultramarines don't get it.
   
 
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