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Hi everyone.

My local club is starting up a Blood in the Badlands campaign which has really sparked up interest in 8th again. So far out of 15 or so players I'm the only HE but all armies are represented. I've not played in a long time and would like some input if I'm thinking about lists in a way that will hamper me or the fun.

Specific rules for armies:
We are not using End Times or the latest FAQ. So 25% Lords not 50%.
Only 1 of the 3 generals can be a named character.
The 3 generals have to be unique. There will be times when all are on the field at the same time so they cannot share magic items.

My ideas are for a Tyrion bus army, a dual dragon monster list, and a Level 4 Book of Hoeth list.

List 1: 1998

Tyrion

Mage lvl 2. Ithilmar steed, Talisman of Endurance, High Magic

Mage lvl2, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury, High Magic

Noble, BSB, Ithilmar steed, enchanted shield, ogre blade, dragon armour,

Core:
12x Archers w/musician

10x Archers w/musician

10x Silver Helms w/ Full command and shields.

Special:
5 Dragon Princes

21 White Lions w/BotWD

Rare:
2x Bolt Thrower

Quite a blunt list, I worry about fast cav or needing redirectors.

List 2: 1998

Prince on a Moon Dragon, Lance, Shield, Armour of Destiny

Dragon Mage, Dragon Armour, Level 2, Gem of Sunfire, Enchanted Shield, dispell scroll.

Core:
12x Archers w/musician

10x Archers w/musician

10x Silver Helms w/ Full command and shields.

Special:
7x Dragon Princes w/Full Command, Starlance, BotWD

Rare:
Frostheart

Going full dragon on this one. Hoping target saturation keeps the monsters alive turn 1.

List 3. 1989 Suggestions for the last 11 points would be awesome

Archmage Level 4 w/Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation Lore of Life or Shadow

Mage Level 2 w/dispell scroll. High or same lore as the lvl 4

Noble BSB w/ Reaver Bow, Potion of strength, enchanted shield, dragon armour, halbard

Core:
15 Archers w/musician

5 Reavers wmusician

25 Spears w/Full Command

Special:
20 Phoenix Guard w/Full Command

24 White Lions w/Full Command, BotWD

Rare:
2x Bolt Throwers

Thanks for looking and any thoughts you might have.

Are archers not around 11 points? One extra in the back rank can still fire thanks to volley fire.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Are archers not around 11 points? One extra in the back rank can still fire thanks to volley fire.

Indeed they are 10 points thank you.

Lists look pretty good, just a few suggestions on them.

For the first list, I think you need more bodies in your bus, or at least switch the bus from Silver Helms to Dragon Princes. Silver Helms are still only one attack, so ten of them won't really cut it. I'd also recommend switching the lore on your unmounted mage to Beasts, as it offers great support potential with mounted character buses. Finally, consider switching the White Lions for Phoenix Guard. White Lions are like Helms/Princes, with low amounts of high strength attacks. They work best against the same targets. The Phoenix Guard, however, will be able to tarpit and whittle down large infantry units that will otherwise give your bus a hard time. I'd also suggest fitting some Reavers/Eagles in there too, to help control the movement phase and ensure your bus gets the charge it wants.

For the second list, I really don't rate Dragon Mages. I would drop it and take a second Frostheart, which will give you equal target saturation as well as a unit that's just better. I'd also trim the Dragon Princes down. Run them 5/6 with just a musician. Cavalry units should be taken in this way (where they're cheap enough to not worry about losing) or in a bus-style formation, where they'll stampede through most units they touch. As it is, your Dragon Princes aren't causing much damage, but aren't cheap enough to be throwaway. All this change should allow you to fit in a mage on foot or, better still, on a steed to go with your Silver Helms. Again, I'd use the Lore of Beasts since it synergises very well with the monsters and the cavalry.

I like the last list, and all I can say is either beef up the spearmen or drop them for equal points of archers. Spearmen only really start working at around the 30-strong mark. Either Lore is fine on your Lvl4, depending on what you want to be the focus of the list. I'd perhaps recommend Shadow, meaning the Phoenix Guard and ranged elements become the focus. I would definitely ensure your Lvl2 takes a different lore though. Beasts and High Magic are both good options if you're running him in one of the combat blocks, but Heavens or Shadow (if you take life on your Lvl4) would be better if you're keeping him with the archers.

Hope this helps, and it's nice to see 8th staying alive. Any more questions, let me know!

I rather like the lists, because they are so different they allow th player a broad view of the high elf army. I would say play all three, more or less as they are and find out for yourself what works. The collection itself must look impressive.

I will reserve my critique mostly for the replies:

 The Shadow wrote:

For the first list, I think you need more bodies in your bus, or at least switch the bus from Silver Helms to Dragon Princes. Silver Helms are still only one attack, so ten of them won't really cut it. I'd also recommend switching the lore on your unmounted mage to Beasts, as it offers great support potential with mounted character buses. Finally, consider switching the White Lions for Phoenix Guard. White Lions are like Helms/Princes, with low amounts of high strength attacks. They work best against the same targets. The Phoenix Guard, however, will be able to tarpit and whittle down large infantry units that will otherwise give your bus a hard time. I'd also suggest fitting some Reavers/Eagles in there too, to help control the movement phase and ensure your bus gets the charge it wants.

Ten cavalry is not a bus, unless they are made of vampire. Silver Helms are probably better for cavalry in more than one rank as you don't get more than one attack per knight in the second rank anyway. As a rule take Dragon Princes and Reavers in one rank Silver Helms in two and none whatsoever in 3+ ranks. The reason to take ten Silvers Helms is not to try and 'bus' but to take advantage of a 2+ save and gain some staying power. Past the charge you are hitting on S3 and all you have going for you is decent armour.

I would liked to agree with a Phoenix Guard tarpit. but the truth is the cavalry will needs rescuing after the charge and the S6 attacks are needed for that. The anvil and hammer rfole is oddly reserved in this list. If the list wants to make good of a charge then it needs chariots, though Tyrion will help.

This list needs some work. Tyrion is a big investment and really needs not a bus but a deathstar with World Dragon and integral magic support. I don't really rate him for anything other than greater daemon hunting or as a character piece in the largest of games. Teclis on the other hand can be a win button. Alith Anar can be very effective if you build a list around him, and Eltharion is an effective toolbox general.

 The Shadow wrote:

For the second list, I really don't rate Dragon Mages. I would drop it and take a second Frostheart, which will give you equal target saturation as well as a unit that's just better. I'd also trim the Dragon Princes down. Run them 5/6 with just a musician. Cavalry units should be taken in this way (where they're cheap enough to not worry about losing) or in a bus-style formation, where they'll stampede through most units they touch. As it is, your Dragon Princes aren't causing much damage, but aren't cheap enough to be throwaway. All this change should allow you to fit in a mage on foot or, better still, on a steed to go with your Silver Helms. Again, I'd use the Lore of Beasts since it synergises very well with the monsters and the cavalry.

Multiple Frosthearts is like joining the cheesemongers who max out on Manglers. Warhammer has underpriced broken units, and anyone can win by spamming them. I will not deny that taking multiple Frosthearts is effective, but it wont win friends.
Trimming Dragon Princes in a double dragon list, you have a hate for fluff armies! If anything take more, ignore above advice from myself and take two ranks, or a bus. Have some fun and give the archers a dragon theme too for an awesome army of Caledor. Actually do trim the Dragon Princes, drop the expensive starlance from the unit champion.

For the record Dragon Mages can be very effective, I for one like tham as a way of having a dragon in a list while keeping the general with the army. if you need to save points downgrade the Princes dragon, you have already underinvested in his magic items, give him a sun dragon, or a horse.

This is a fun non competitive list as is, take it out for fun and giggles, put it away if you are earnest about winning. Non-competitive however doesn't mean weak, but if the opponent maxes out for as competitive build you will have troubles.

 The Shadow wrote:

I like the last list, and all I can say is either beef up the spearmen or drop them for equal points of archers. Spearmen only really start working at around the 30-strong mark. Either Lore is fine on your Lvl4, depending on what you want to be the focus of the list. I'd perhaps recommend Shadow, meaning the Phoenix Guard and ranged elements become the focus. I would definitely ensure your Lvl2 takes a different lore though. Beasts and High Magic are both good options if you're running him in one of the combat blocks, but Heavens or Shadow (if you take life on your Lvl4) would be better if you're keeping him with the archers.

I like this list too, in fact its very similar to how I play with my 'default' HE army. Though I switch between the Level 4 and a Loremaster for variety and sometimes add a dragon Mage. BSB with Reaver bow is a fixture, as is a wall of Spearelves, Phoenix Guard and White Lions.
I agree with Shadows assessments here, spearelves need to be bigger, and his choices for lore is mostly solid. Choose from Life, Shadow or High Magic for best effect, Beasts can work for a support mage.

This army is safe, when you play your lists play List 3 first.

 The Shadow wrote:

Hope this helps, and it's nice to see 8th staying alive. Any more questions, let me know!

8th is live and kicking, the honeymoon phase of Age of Stigma is over already.

Thank you both for the input. It's the great variety of advice I'm getting from here and other forums that really shows the diversity of the High Elves army. To be clear this thread isn't about Sigmar bashing. I love playing Sigmar as much as 8th its just different and we want to rerun another badlands camapign.

I have been giving serious thought to making the tyrion list a deathstar one. Drop the lions beef up the dragons they carry the world dragon banner to protect tyrion and the characters as currently they are vulnerable to magic. I have some weeks of practice before the campaign so will test out switching the lions for phoenix guard. Because each general is set in stone we've got a good mix of stuff. Including 500 point carnosaur riding old bloods and Vampire lords. Tyrion is there for that.

With the dragon list it is themed. If I liked the phoenix model you bet I'd be running 4 of the frosts with no guilt at all. But I don't and including just one hurts. The dragon princes are needed to carry the dragon banner again as stubborn monsters are scary. Dropping the lance from them isn't a bad shout though thanks. There will be armies that struggle to deal with this list and those are the empires I will be aiming for.

For list 3 I'm getting universal thoughts on the spears so dropping them for another unit each of archers and reavers for bang on 500 points. The core can then support the main 2 infantry blocks better. Again thank you for suggestions on the magic lores I have difficulty seeing things on paper so you have given me a place to start experimenting. I then have 16 points to play with so add another body to the lions.

TheBrushKnight wrote:

I have been giving serious thought to making the tyrion list a deathstar one. Drop the lions beef up the dragons they carry the world dragon banner to protect tyrion and the characters as currently they are vulnerable to magic. I have some weeks of practice before the campaign so will test out switching the lions for phoenix guard. Because each general is set in stone we've got a good mix of stuff. Including 500 point carnosaur riding old bloods and Vampire lords. Tyrion is there for that.

If its a campaign I would drop the deathstar, and drop the Tyrion list entirely. Its unfair if it wins and risky to play. One bad defeat due to redirects might put you in an unrecoverable position.

TheBrushKnight wrote:

With the dragon list it is themed. If I liked the phoenix model you bet I'd be running 4 of the frosts with no guilt at all. But I don't and including just one hurts. The dragon princes are needed to carry the dragon banner again as stubborn monsters are scary. Dropping the lance from them isn't a bad shout though thanks. There will be armies that struggle to deal with this list and those are the empires I will be aiming for.

Ahh an aesthetic player. There a number of armies I have run where the top end unit never makes my list because its ugly.

TheBrushKnight wrote:

For list 3 I'm getting universal thoughts on the spears so dropping them for another unit each of archers and reavers for bang on 500 points. The core can then support the main 2 infantry blocks better. Again thank you for suggestions on the magic lores I have difficulty seeing things on paper so you have given me a place to start experimenting. I then have 16 points to play with so add another body to the lions.

Spears are good but though it might look odd you can tank with a large enough block of archers. Being HE they still get to hit first, and stand and shoot. Both of these play well by the odds, especially as a 5+ save is not that great to begin with.
Some players take a good number of archers, in three ranks, and hold with them, statistically they stick around about as long as spearelves do.

Our club has no problem with deathstar builds. For example I know I know I will be facing a big block of skullcrushers with a lord in. The campaign is to give some structure and motivation to our games not pull our punches.

I am interested in what type of general you would replace Tyrion with. As I have a level 4 list already I'm not fancying Teclis. I saw him as a way to have a tough cavalry general that isn't going to take any items way from generals 2 and 3.

I've heard of a block of archers being useful as a combat unit in a push. Mind razor makes them just as scary as spears as well. I will test out whether shooting versatility or being one group works better.

To make things even more interesting the badlands campaign rules add points for.games, free magic items or cause units to skip battles. This just got a little more complicated.

For Dragon Prince deathstar 20+ DP with full command, BSB with World Dragon, High magic level 2+ with 4++ and Ironcurse Icon and Tyrion is good. You will needs Ironcurse Icon to start the group ward save, which you will be relying on. Try and fit in an archmage if you can.

Tyrion is around 400 points so that's out of the question

Why I asked for a 2+, to get higher you need to find a cheaper general. You wanted Tyrion though so I am trying to work with the material given. A lvl 2 casting High Magic may have enough spells to boost the ward to reasonable levels.

Trying to get a Prince and a level 4 in 500pts is difficult. You can give the prince mundane Dragon Prince gear and the archmage a barded steed 4++ and 6++/unit and that comes to 194pts without any items on the prince. This will not do.

So we are looking at keeping what you have got or backing up the archmage with a BSB noble and a second combat noble. Two nobles with mundane gear cost as much as one Prince and hit far harder anyway. Its a matter of choosing the items carefully.

But thats not a Tyrion deathstar anymore.