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Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

So this is a whine thread Since I am feeling particularly sour about my last game vs Morvahna the Dawnshadow

In a Nut shell, I have no idea how to beat a caster who can happily suicide nearly her whole army to then resurrect them behind enemy lines with an effective 9" teleport.

The game started off in what I thought was the best example of my Cygnars efforts since I got them.
Covering Fire and Mage storm clouds blocked their Alpha strike giving me time to move into range and sacrifice my CC units in defence of my shooting units. The shooting units then rolled the greatest set of shots in the history of Cygnar with at least 3 double sixes on damage, and most shots killing their intended targets (Rather than just the light scratches I was expecting to have to pile on)

With this display of incredible shooting and feeling that the dice gods were completely on my side, my opponent then ran the couple remains of their units into combat with my shooting units (last ditch delaying attack I think) then proceeds to move up MorvahnaE.
Then almost the entire force comes back, blocking me from reaching her with a couple of blockers (and with reach engaging every single model I have to boot) and also using the 9" jump to warp a few of them behind my defences and into my Caster (Sloan).

I of course then die to freestrikes trying to disengage to get an assassinate on Morvahna since that was the only possible move left to me at this stage.

Even so, I very much felt that her feat is one of the most game bending abilities ever, and that Anything I could have done except go full on assassin (and some how not get murdered by the army that I'm ignoring to do so).

Either way, feeling very sour having feeling that I did everything right and had the best luck I have ever seen only to have my opponent pull out a LOLNOPE card and totally invalidate everything I could possibly have done. :(

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/13 08:50:59


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Sounds more like the problem was that you took a one-dimensional list and suffered for it, if you had had some melee units that could clear off the feated models you would probably have fared a lot better. Pure gunlines live or die by their alpha strike, and yours was not effective enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/07 10:57:20


 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

Well that was the problem, I had sacrificed my own Melee unit to bait out and clear away his own melee unit.

Stormguard did their job of catching the Alpha strike, but a nearly full unit of Skinwalkers and a nuke spell from Morvahna left me with only 2 who were still engaged on the front line and unable to reposition when Morvahna teleported in the full Skinwalker unit again.

My Gunline also did a very good job as I said, and with my opponent losing all but one beast and all by a single model from each unit (who I see now were held back so I could not attack them ready for the unstoppable resurrection game win move). I actually had run out of targets at that point thanks to my very lucky rolls.

I think my gun line did very well in this game.
Its just Morvahnas tactic is unstoppable unless I can some how keep a 3" buffer of models around my caster at all time to stop the teleporters from just jumping my lines. Edit( which itself would be a bad idea since Morvahna has that spell that get a higher POW for each model under its template)

My opponent had the perfect trap and me actually having a good gunline fitted his needs perfectly for an easy game win.

So I guess my next question is, how is haveing half my points in a melee unit considered a Pure Gunline?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/07 11:17:22


 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




How many points were you playing at and what scenerio? At 35 or less there's very little you can do since you don't have the fire power necessary to clear whole units.

Since you didn't say what models she brought back I can't comment a whole lot except to point out that she can only bring back living friendly faction warriors (so no stones) and that they have to forfiet their actions upon their return.
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




 aprilmanha wrote:
So I guess my next question is, how is haveing half my points in a melee unit considered a Pure Gunline?

If a Stormguard unit is half your army points then you're playing at a point level where the game doesn't really work properly. It's not balanced until you hit at least 35 but preferably 50 points.
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

We were doing a 2vs2 25pts each game.

It was Cygar and Khador vs the vile Circle and Legion.
We played it that allies could not assist each other, (so no stones teleport for Legion for example).

Activation was pretty straight forward with both sides activating together but some small discussions to avoid stepping on each others toes.

Circle was
Morvahna
Warpwolf stalker
full Skinwalkers + UA
Stones
Gorax

I was
Sloan+Rynholt
Cyclone
Gunmages + UA
B13
Stormguard

I'm not familiar with Legion but the Khador player sorted them out in pretty short order with a Spriggen, BucherP and a WGDS+KJ doing the heavy lifting, only to have Morvahna sprint over the board and curb stomp the second half of butchers life away in the same turn she brought back everything.

The game literally went from a circle player with only a Gorax 2 stones and a single Skinwalker, vs 3/4 my force and nearly the full Khador force with 4 scenario points, to my whole force engaged by the resurrected Skinwalkers, and Morvahna sitting pretty in the other Zone by herself having killed off the Khador.

My only hope was to use my Cyclone to throw a Skinwalker at the 2 engaging Sloan so that she could run over and take a couple of overboosted shots to save the day. I got the first double 1 then on the throw and failed to grab and so sloan had to try to make the run on her own and dies to the freestrikes.


 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Like I said. It's too easy for Morvhana to bring back all of her troops at your point level. Your only answer at that level is Haley2 (feat) or Stryker2 (caster kill) or Caine2(gives gunfighter to ATGM).

If you are going to play at this level again here is my advice.
Kill 1 stone and that will end the Teleport problem. Spread your troops out. You have a numerical advantage and he shouldn't be able to jam you up with only 5 figures.

Or keep the B13 behind your gunmages and when he jams your mages hit them with the B13 (black penny ignores in melee penalty). When you clear off a couple of your ATGM then use them to thunderbolt the others clean and keep shooting. If you aim you're RAT 9 the engaged skinwalkers are Def 16 you should hit about half the time and you shouldn't hit your own guys because they're Def 19.

Or use Ryan to mage storm everything and hope you don't hit too many of your own guys.

Also use covering fire to stop the Alpha strike backed up by your stormblades. The skinwalkers aren't going to like running through the AoE. Just use Sloan to pick off the stalker that he's holding back. 2 boosted damage shots from her should easily do the job. Or put the shots into Morvhana and if it doesn't kill her it should reduce the amount of troops she can bring back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/07 14:01:31


 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

"Also use covering fire to stop the Alpha strike backed up by your stormblades. The skinwalkers aren't going to like running through the AoE. Just use Sloan to pick off the stalker that he's holding back. 2 boosted damage shots from her should easily do the job."

Sounds like you were watching my game there
B13 Flared and magestormed the Skinwolved (who were well spread out so only one was caught), then the Stormguard moved up to protect them and the Covering fire was dropped right in front of them to stop the Skinwalkers charge.
Morvhana was too far away and the Skinwalker was getting ready to teleport in the stones so sloan popped his head. The Gun Mages then broke a stone and used thunderbolt to knock over a legion beast for the Khador.

Then in their turn, Morvhana ran over and nuked off 5 of the guard and then backed up again while covering fire killed 2 Skin walkers while 3 of them managed to squeeze past thanks to their wide formation. (leaving one of their number hiding in the back of the woods). Their attack killed 3 guard and left them unengaged so were removed by the cyclones attack in the next turn.

I guess I should have played sloan more aggressivly and rather then hide at the back sniping out the legion caster she should have run up and hoped that her def 16 would avoid all enemy fire, so I could have tried to snipe Morvhana who was in cover. just seems like a bad idea though...

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Exposing your caster is generally a bad idea unless you have a very good reason, assassinating eMorv if the dice math is in your favor is a good one.

Anyway, you seem to have run into a combination of a bad matchup at a point level that heavily favors a recursion type feat like hers.


How to beat eMorv:

I've played against her a lot. There are a few key things to remember.

1) At 50 points, she will have difficulty bringing a lot of her army back. So the key is to kill lots of stuff to make her make choices. Don't commit your force and then only kill 6-7 models. She'll just bring them back and kill 12-15 of yours with whats left. Try to kill 10+ models before she feats. If the Morv player has been properly using rerolls he won't be able to feat as many models back. Her health should be bouncing up and down throughout the game. If he's only using her as a walking feat, he's missing her biggest strength.

2) If you can, kill off an entire unit. A good player will keep one member back near Morvhana to prevent you from doing this, but if you can do it do it!

3) Any Removed from Play prevents the model from being feated back.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

Thanks for the advice everyone

I don't think anything I have in my Cygnar will be able to beat her force at this point though since my opponent is smart and always will keep one model of every unit hidden away to avoid a unit wipe, and unless I set the board in my favour with a lack of cover near objectives (not something I will do) I fear that I'll never get him in a position where he has to expose the whole unit.

I think I'll go with something like Stryker and a ton of Jacks.
3 to plow forwards and trample everything with ARM buff to avoid death and one to sit back and shield guard my caster Maybe a Jorneyman with another Arm buff to make one jack totally immune to damage for a couple of turns

He can't stop a wall of trampling heavy Jacks with Arm 20-25

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Have you considered playing larger games?

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

35 is kind of the limit my brain can manage.
After that point there seems to be so many options an buffs people can stack to multiple units at once I just can't keep track.

At least at 35 points if someone goes for the multibuffs they tend to have only 1-2 units that get them (instead of 3-4) so I can at least then follow what's happening.

Its for my opponents benefit anyway as I'm sure it cannot be any fun playing someone who has to reask the same questions like 4 times a turn

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Believe me, games between 35 and 50 are nothing like that. You actually have less buffs to pass around because you still only have 1 warcaster.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

Really?
Everytime I've tried I see buff solos coming out all over to augment everything in their path

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

What kind of buff solos? Nothing can really be taken to layer buffs like you are describing. At best you get one unit super buffed and everything else would have nothing.

Its really not as complicated as you are making it sound.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

Well like Kovnik Joe or Rhupert Carvolo, who can buff other units. I know there are more and I'm sure you will know them better then I.

I just can't keep up with the buffs on all the different units and how it all interacts.

At least in the lower point values its either one buffed unit or 2 unbuffed units, which I find much easier to play with and enjoy.

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Well, I really can't understand the issue here.

This is what those dudes do.

In Khador, you'll have the Winterguard Deathstar. Which is super simple. Joe gives the unit of Winterguard(who have UA and rocketeers) one of his 3 buffs, along with 1 buff from the Warcaster. Most likely Iron Flesh. So you have Def17 dudes who either have an additional die to hit, Tough and Fearless, or a strength buff.

So with the Piper. The most common way you see him is in Menoth. Where he's paired with the Covenant. Piper gives a unit tough, the Covenant gives no knockdown. Alternately, you see a defense buff combined with Dirge of Mists, but thats even simpler than Kovnik Joe.

This is a very far cry from complicated. And you will see both of these interactions even at low points, where they are actually way stronger. At 50 points you actually have to make choices where to apply these buffs because you usually have 3+ options for where to put them, while at 25 points its going on the one unit you are running.

25 points is a learning game, its not balanced for long term play. Seriously, play 50 points. Its the best place to play the game at overall. Especially if you want to mitigate the Rock/Paper/Scissors issues you seem to be running into.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/07 19:49:53


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

Sure, once I'm quick and proficient at the 25pts level I'll build up to it naturally.

25pts takes long enough as it is at an hour long games so far. When I'm down to 30 minutes I'll be proficient enough to get the bigger games.

 
   
Made in us
Purged Thrall





FL

Between cutting for feat and rerolls it can seem pretty unbalanced. That being said, that tends to leave her low on health and fury, so she can be vulnerable to ranged assassinations.

I concur with everyone else though, 25 points is still a bit unbalanced. 35 you get most of the units/pieces you "need" and 50 you get that plus some wants. But there are definitely some casters who don't come into their own until 50 (either because their spells or feat gets more mileage, or they need a lot of support).
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




More importantly at lower point levels some caster's feats become an overwhelming advantage. For instance at 25 points the ability to feat in a minimum unit of bane thralls is pretty nasty . They have a point value of 5 points (a 20% bonus to a players army)[pGoreshade]. At 50 points it's not as imbalancing (only a 10% bonus) and can be balanced out by some tier's benefits (point reductions and/or free models) or it's just not that major a problem against a bigger army with more options/weapons.
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot



Schaumburg, IL

The best way to beat Epic Morvhana as a Cygnar player is to use eCaine. Pop his feat and shoot your opponents troops which are removed from play. She can't bring them back - problem solved. Use the Forgeuard brick (JWC, Carvolo) and it gives you the melee power to take on anything that Caine doesn't kill.

I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally 
   
Made in gb
Hacking Shang Jí





Bournemouth, England

All good advice here but tbh the best way to sort it is to play at the 50pts level.

I know exactly how you feel in regards to the time it takes for your game, my group was the same. We always played at 35pts because we didn't want to play all night knowing we have work the next day but once we were comfortable with the rules we made the move to 50 and it really hasn't added any time to our games.

It also adds a much welcome balance. As a Cryx player its fair to say I've seen my fair share of victories. However at 35pts some games were decided by turn 2. Although I won I can honestly say that they were not the most enjoyable games. When we moved to 50 my opponents had access to better options and combos and this not only balanced the forces but also gave me a much better and enjoyable game. I still enjoy my fair share of victories but I now have to work for it!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/09 18:08:27


Need more 's in my life!  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

We were doing a 2vs2 25pts each game.


You can't really whine about something being unbalanced when you yourself weren't even playing a balanced game. It doesn't matter if you had a rule that prevents allies from helping eachother, 25 pts of another faction alongside yours is a huge patch to plugging capability gaps. As others have said 35-50 points is where the balance is, 35-50 pts of 1v1 that is. If youre' doing a 2v2, then treat it for what it is and take what comesf rom it: a casual game not indicative of proper play.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

 Emperors_Champion wrote:
However at 35pts some games were decided by turn 2. )


Ohh err I really don't like the idea of games being essentially 1 turn long (ignoring Turn 1 since that is allllways run run run and not really much of a turn )

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

It happens. I got assassinated bottom of turn one by eVayl just last week.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Drakhun





Got assassinated turn 3 in both my games tonight.

eKaya porting Ghetorix is horrible.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in gb
Hacking Shang Jí





Bournemouth, England

Yup, can be a stinka!

In my last game against pKaya, one of my regular (usually more cautious) opponents caught me out and went for the assassination on my pLylyth... gotta keep your guard up in this game!

Luckily for me the dice gods were on my side and my turn 3 a Ravagore ate Kaya!

Need more 's in my life!  
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

Tbh it sounds like the main issue here was that you had never played against eMorv before and had no idea what she did (particularly the feat). Cygnar is one of the factions in the game which can deal with her feat pretty well if they play it right, mostly because they have plenty of access to long ranged shooting. Normally with eMorv one model from each unit will get left further back because if the entire unit dies then she can't bring them back - so if you focus on killing a single unit you should do ok. This maybe means leaving the Stalker alive for a turn

Your Sloan list will have issues against plenty of lists though because you don't have much in the way of armour cracking. This mostly only becomes an issue when you are dealing with multi wound units like Skinwalkers - Sloan can pick off heavies ok, but the rest of your shooting is unboosted POW10s or 12's.
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

Wanna see her cry?

(-6) Kara Sloan
+18(+12) 3x Hunters
+1 Rehinholdt
+2 Jonas Murdoch
+9 Greygore Boomhowler

+24 points, and will give him fits.

But as others have said, the game really doesn't start to come into it's own until 35 points, and doesn't hit it's true stride until 50. Be prepared to always face that one list that will destroy you. It's called a bad match up, and it happens. Such skew lists can really hurt, but take comfort in the fact that the more skew a list is, the more other lists can take it out.


Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

Play more. Play more against this caster. You are always going to be caught offgaurd by things till you play against them a couple of times and learn about them. In this game you need to know your list and your opponents list.

Once you get some exp and know what the enemy is capable of you'll start winning more.
   
 
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