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Hey there everyone, There is a tournament coming up at the end of October near me using ITC rules but going at 2000 pts with the additional rule that all Lords of War are going to be allowed. This is the list I'm thinking about using for it but I wanna get feedback and test it out before then.

=CAD - Sisters=
HQ-
Canoness
+Combi-melta, Chainsword, Rosarius, Meltabombs, & Mantle of Ophelia+
-120

St. Celestine
+Her kit+
-135

Troops-
3x Sisters Squad
+5 Gals+ Big sis, Flamer, Heavy flamer & Immolator (Immolator gets a storm bolter and TL Multimelta)+
-152 (456)

Fast attack
Dominions Squad
+4 Gals+ Big sis, 4x Meltas, 1x Combi-melta for Big sis+
-115

Heavy support
3x Exorcist
+Storm bolter+
130 (390)

=AD: Dark angels=
HQ-
TechMarine
+Bare bones+
-65

Troops-
Tactical marines
+9 Dudes +Sarge, Heavy bolter+
-150

Fast attack
Drop Pod
+Storm bolter+
-35

=Super Heavy/LoW=
Imperial Knight Crusader
+Rapidfire Battle cannon, Gatling gun, and heavy stubber+
-430

=Fortification=
Aegis Defense Line
+Quad gun+
-100

Total- 1996/2000

Thoughts, comments, and Opinions welcomed.

Should I post how this list is supposed to run or does everyone pretty much know?

Only one question - where does Celestine go? Off hunting on her own? (Should be easy enough to hide) - As a Jump Infantry, she's not allowed in any of the transports.

Why the canoness?

Why not drop a BSS squad for more dominions?
Why not take BA instead of DA? You can get more Pods that way for cheaper, if that's your route.
Why no vehicle for the Tacs?

Basically, I think you're lacking focus in the list. It definitely needs to be tuned.

 Quanar wrote:
Only one question - where does Celestine go? Off hunting on her own? (Should be easy enough to hide) - As a Jump Infantry, she's not allowed in any of the transports.

In most situations manning the Quad gun with the Tacts, Her BS is nothing to sneeze at but in a pinch could go off on her own.

pretre wrote:
Why the canoness?

Why not drop a BSS squad for more dominions?
Why not take BA instead of DA? You can get more Pods that way for cheaper, if that's your route.
Why no vehicle for the Tacs?

Basically, I think you're lacking focus in the list. It definitely needs to be tuned.

She could probably be dropped now, I just don't know what I'd throw in.

Kind of ties into the next part, I started off the list with 3 squads of dominions and was told I didn't have enough support of them and that I would probably give up FB often as such And given that I had DA as the allies I could really only fit one pod in there.
As for Why I don't take BA it's mostly because DA's just what I have, and I like the fact that they can Overwatch with BS2.
The tacts are for sitting behind the ADL w/ a quad gun and camping an objective, and offering a little support to the Exorcists that will also be sitting behind the line.

But no I agree the list does need focus, that's why I'm holding it up for people to pick apart.

If the tacticals are just for the quad you should be using sniper scouts. Same bs but can use cloaks and hide for a lot less points. If you take 2 units of scouts then its a CAD which will allow you another pod.

I agree, drop Celestine as she does do much in your list.

You need more dominions in the list for sure. Ignores cover melta is too good in the current format and you can easily get another in there.

Alright so Reworking a little.

=CAD - Sisters=
HQ-

St. Celestine
+Her kit+
-135
(There was never a Canoness here...you are just imagining things...)


Troops-
3x Sisters Squad
+5 Gals+ Big sis, Flamer, Heavy flamer & Immolator (Immolator gets a storm bolter and TL Multimelta)+
-152 (456)

Fast attack
2x Dominions Squad
+4 Gals+ Big sis, 4x Meltas, 1x Combi-melta for Big sis+
-115 (230)

Heavy support
3x Exorcist
+Storm bolter+
130 (390)

=CAD: Dark angels=
HQ-
TechMarine
+Bare bones+
-65

Troops-
2x Scouts
+bare bones+
-55 (110)

Fast attack
2x Drop Pod
+Storm bolter+
-35 (70)

=Super Heavy/LoW=
Imperial Knight Crusader
+Rapidfire Battle cannon, Gatling gun, and heavy stubber+
-430

=Fortification=
Aegis Defense Line
+Quad gun+
-100

Total-1986/2000

I like my Canonesses cheap. Yours is almost double the points of a bare one and just about as effective.

Dominions giving up first blood? I suppose they will on occasion, but 4-5 ignore cover melta guns (per unit) should get you first blood quite often. Especially if they are scouting forward in an Immolator or Repressor.

I'm really not seeing what the Dark Angels bring you. I guess if you want the drop pod, but otherwise it seems like a waste.

I can't argue with the Knight, they are nice to have.

If you're just setting her on the Aegis, replace the canoness with Celestine. She provides counter-charge and good BS.

Trebloc wrote:I like my Canonesses cheap. Yours is almost double the points of a bare one and just about as effective.

Dominions giving up first blood? I suppose they will on occasion, but 4-5 ignore cover melta guns (per unit) should get you first blood quite often. Especially if they are scouting forward in an Immolator or Repressor.

I'm really not seeing what the Dark Angels bring you. I guess if you want the drop pod, but otherwise it seems like a waste.

Noted about the Canoness, Was probably going to swap her out for Celestine since she's almost there anyway.

I agree with you on the giving up FB bit, assuming of course that I got first turn. but this also ties in with the DA bit, considering that I KNOW I'm going to be fighting knights or worse, deepstriking the gals in behind or to the side of one becomes vital. If Drop pods had the Ravenwing rule I'd just take the ravenwing formation, with a Techmarine on a bike (since ITC allows any HQ that takes a bike to count as Ravenwing) and as many Pods as I wanted. But since they don't, and I can't that's what I'm rolling with right now.

All that being said, if you guys have other suggetions for chapter tactics I should roll with instead of DA, I'm open to them, I heard BA earlier in the thread, and I'm sure I could get my hands on the proper codex for any recommendations if it would make it cheaper.

pretre wrote:If you're just setting her on the Aegis, replace the canoness with Celestine. She provides counter-charge and good BS.

Alrighty, will edit previous list to replace Canoness.

Trade in the storm bolters to upgrade to a bastion?

 pretre wrote:
Trade in the storm bolters to upgrade to a bastion?

An unappealing proposition, the storm bolters are there as weapon destroyed protection for the vehicles, especially the exorcists it can be the difference of having 48" of pain or not. The bastion itself also doesn't provide them with a cover save like the ADL does. It can take a quad gun and gets those extra heavy bolters but given the choice I'd actually consider a bunker before the bastion. Which only costs 5 more points than the adl.

Bastion gets you heavy bolters and protection from most weapons.

Up to you though... I don't usually find the SB useful on vehicles.

Alrighty news from the front!

I had a game against a tau player who offered to play and help me practice my list. It was a fun game actually with several nice moments he beat me by two but it was a fairly close game all round.

Things I've learned:
Drop pod dominions are great "distraction carnifexes", 4 meltas and a combi is usually enough to make a person cringe but dropping them in next to the tank carrying their HQ? Horrifying. That being said they are distraction 'fexes because they will draw every interceptor shot that they have. Good because they aren't firing those at the exorcists, bad because I don't get my melta shots...more gals may be required for the units as bullet sponges.

Pretre I understand what you were trying to tell me the other day, the SB is good occasionally because you might get to ignore a weapon destroyed roll but I didn't find them particularly useful today, it occasionally got me an extra wound here or there but nothing good enough to warrant them doing anything more than soaking up extra points.

Crusader knight might not be the go to for this army, He did one or two things this game (killed one broadside particularly well) but not enough that I felt he was worth the 1/5 of my army he was taking up. Got wrecked in the end because a knight paladin shoved a chainsword up his strap and rolled 3 6's to hit, to wound, and for the D-table.

One unit of scouts need to chill with the techmarine and one with celestine, Had a unit of them camp an objective that ended up giving out no points all game.

Exorcists worked fantastically, and The gals cleaned up a kroot squad and Tau troop squad rather nicely, there were a few times when i wanted more meltas on the squads but I figure I can deal with it, I'll be happy I have those flamers when I'm fighting something with hordes of troops.

Finally the Aegis Defense Line worked both for and against me, I made the mistake of trying to stretch it out further than it should have gone. That said the quad gun along with the Exorcist gunline worked wonderfully until they started to get focused and stunned down.

I was recommended the void shield generator for the Exorcists in the future, the argument being that they only thing better than a Cover save would be not getting hit at all. But this would also mean that I would be losing my only Skyfire/interceptor. As the VSG can't take a Quad gun option. and I was also Recommended to take a Knight paladin over the crusader. Though I may drop the Knight all together, it's fun, but I'm not particularly sold on it for this army.

Thoughts?

I've never felt like I needed a Knight in my list. My local shop doesn't allow them in tournies so that helps. I really have no advice on which Knight might work better for you though, if you do choose to take one.

That said, I don't like SBs on vehicles either unless I take a rhino or Immolator with heavy flamer, and the only reason for that one is so if I move more than 6" I've still got something I can snapshoot. I always take dozer blades, but I think that depends on playstyle. I like to move through terrain a lot and I'm good at rolling 1's.

If you drop one of the BSS Immolators and give them a drop pod instead you'll have more flexibility for Dominions. You'll be able to bring both in turn 1 and take less interceptor fire, then later put an obsec unit right where you want it.

Honestly I'd either drop the Knight and take some bikes or something that makes it worth taking Dark Angels, or take a different chapter and do the same thing. Celestine can keep up with bikes if they don't turbo boost, or you could go with Blood Angels and give her some Death Company or something. Maybe try to squeeze a LoW in there somewhere if you think you need one. With 875 points (the current cost of your DA+Knight) I'm sure you could come up with something.

Thorned_Lily wrote:
I've never felt like I needed a Knight in my list. My local shop doesn't allow them in tournies so that helps. I really have no advice on which Knight might work better for you though, if you do choose to take one.

That said, I don't like SBs on vehicles either unless I take a rhino or Immolator with heavy flamer, and the only reason for that one is so if I move more than 6" I've still got something I can snapshoot. I always take dozer blades, but I think that depends on playstyle. I like to move through terrain a lot and I'm good at rolling 1's.

If you drop one of the BSS Immolators and give them a drop pod instead you'll have more flexibility for Dominions. You'll be able to bring both in turn 1 and take less interceptor fire, then later put an obsec unit right where you want it.

Honestly I'd either drop the Knight and take some bikes or something that makes it worth taking Dark Angels, or take a different chapter and do the same thing. Celestine can keep up with bikes if they don't turbo boost, or you could go with Blood Angels and give her some Death Company or something. Maybe try to squeeze a LoW in there somewhere if you think you need one. With 875 points (the current cost of your DA+Knight) I'm sure you could come up with something.

Knights are simply part of the meta around here, I've been told just about everyone is gonna bring them so I'll need something to deal with them.

Another drop pod with some sisters in it 2 melta guns and a combi for big sis is quite a nice thought though. Not as much punch as the Dominions but what it lacks in meltas can be made up for with gals.

Again I don't mind taking another chapter if someone would point me in a good direction. I was suggested Ultras the other day on one of they other haunts. And as for giving Celestine a squad I do have a unit of 10x Serphim that I kinda just sitting in my case right now, Hit and run with I7 seems pretty decent.

If I took some other Jump-pack squad what do you recommend?

I love Seraphim, but I'm honestly not sure if they're the best choice if you're going to run allies. In a pure Sisters list they're our only choice, and mine more than make back their points in every single game, but if I was going to use a different chapter I'd either go BA Death Company and drown the opponent in attacks, BA Sanguinary Guard but that's more of an aesthetic because I think they're not as good as DC unless you spend like 500+ points on a single squad, or maybe stick her in a bike squad but that really limits their mobility. So probably Death Company, for my vote. You could do a squad of 5 with a couple power fists, but I like max squads personally, more bodies to protect the important stuff. In the end Seraphim are t3/s3 with bolt pistols, I load mine with hand flamers and go hunt infantry. DC could threaten big items with the right loadout, same as Sanguinary Guard and just about every other jump unit available to Space Marines, to varying degrees.

I don't know much about the Space Marine book to suggest anything from there.

Thorned_Lily wrote:
I love Seraphim, but I'm honestly not sure if they're the best choice if you're going to run allies. In a pure Sisters list they're our only choice, and mine more than make back their points in every single game, but if I was going to use a different chapter I'd either go BA Death Company and drown the opponent in attacks, BA Sanguinary Guard but that's more of an aesthetic because I think they're not as good as DC unless you spend like 500+ points on a single squad, or maybe stick her in a bike squad but that really limits their mobility. So probably Death Company, for my vote. You could do a squad of 5 with a couple power fists, but I like max squads personally, more bodies to protect the important stuff. In the end Seraphim are t3/s3 with bolt pistols, I load mine with hand flamers and go hunt infantry. DC could threaten big items with the right loadout, same as Sanguinary Guard and just about every other jump unit available to Space Marines, to varying degrees.

I don't know much about the Space Marine book to suggest anything from there.

I've been recommended Vanguard Vets from the C:SM book, and Death company from BA. So here's something else to consider, Lets say I drop the knight to add another Drop pod and possibly another squad of either Dominions or a unit of sisters. What HQ do I replace the Tech marine with (preferably something with a jet pack)? and which unit would fill a utility role better?

Instead of a knight take some drop pod dreadnoughts or veterans with melta/plasma guns. Dreads are great, MM Hvy flamer is my recommendation for dropping them. Get an interrogator chaplain with a jump pack they're beautiful. Dark angel bikes are also really good now with rerollable jink saves and access to grav. Black knights are also decent at a few roles, and DA leaders on bikes are usually pretty decent.

You could consider taking seraphims if you want an escort for a jump packing leader. They're better than assault marines IMO. Use them to keep a jumppack libby safe so you can get some divination action to buff your guys.

Overall you have lots of anti-vehicle but you lack much melee punch(if you're dropping the Knight) and you also
lack a decent amount of mid-long range dakka. Something with AP4 and a decent strength, like heavy bolters. 2 Hvy bolters on those scout squads might not be a bad idea. They're the cheapest hvy bolters you can get pretty much. The flamers and hvy flamers will serve you well but it's nice to be able to hit things from a decent distance away.

 Nalydyn wrote:
Instead of a knight take some drop pod dreadnoughts or veterans with melta/plasma guns. Dreads are great, MM Hvy flamer is my recommendation for dropping them. Get an interrogator chaplain with a jump pack they're beautiful. Dark angel bikes are also really good now with rerollable jink saves and access to grav. Black knights are also decent at a few roles, and DA leaders on bikes are usually pretty decent.

You could consider taking seraphims if you want an escort for a jump packing leader. They're better than assault marines IMO. Use them to keep a jumppack libby safe so you can get some divination action to buff your guys.

Overall you have lots of anti-vehicle but you lack much melee punch(if you're dropping the Knight) and you also
lack a decent amount of mid-long range dakka. Something with AP4 and a decent strength, like heavy bolters. 2 Hvy bolters on those scout squads might not be a bad idea. They're the cheapest hvy bolters you can get pretty much. The flamers and hvy flamers will serve you well but it's nice to be able to hit things from a decent distance away.

Hadn't considered Dreads, maybe cause it's because I only have 1, but it does have a multi-melta, I had been looking at an Interrogator-Chaplain with jump pack though, it's just a shame DA can't take vanguard Vets. As for bikes I have a bunch of them I just don't want to use them for this army, I have Ravenwing as my main space marine army I'm just kinda trying to avoid going that route.

Alrighty I'll probably add some Heavy bolters then.

@Knight - have you looked at the DA Formations?

There is one called "Hammer of Caliban". It includes a Techmarine (for your ADL), a Land Raider (which isn't amazing, but you have a ton of good AV already and it can launch armourbane Repentia w/Frag Launchers), and Whirlwinds (for lots of Ignores Cover + Shred). Some cool Special Rules too, your Techmarine will confer Monster Hunter + Tank Hunter on his attached unit.

You might get more mileage out of it than the Knight Crusader

Yoyoyo wrote:
@Knight - have you looked at the DA Formations?

There is one called "Hammer of Caliban". It includes a Techmarine (for your ADL), a Land Raider (which isn't amazing, but you have a ton of good AV already and it can launch armourbane Repentia w/Frag Launchers), and Whirlwinds (for lots of Ignores Cover + Shred). Some cool Special Rules too, your Techmarine will confer Monster Hunter + Tank Hunter on his attached unit.

You might get more mileage out of it than the Knight Crusader

That's pretty neat but I am dropping the ADL in favor of a Void-shield Generator, If I had more whirlwinds I would probably use them though. Overall I'm just not sure the Techmarine is the right fit for the army now that I'm removing the knight.

Have you considered Black Templars instead of Dark Angels? A Marshall with jump pack and lightning claws or a storm shield with a unit of Vanguard, would go well with Celestine and even be fluffy as well. Take a crusader squad to help keep the exorcists safe longer and put one of the dominions in a drop pod. A LRR could also get your dominion squad upfield to cause some misery.

I like the idea of taking a libby with a JP, a major part of this edition is the psychic phase and Sisters completely lacks that. Depending what you roll you could either support the unit itself or just have a really mobile librarian spreading psychic abilities all over the field.

Another thing that I really like, if you were considering the Land Raider, is filling it with Repentia. I know a lot of people really don't like them, and they are really expensive for such a fragile unit, but if you can put them in an assault vehicle (like the LR) it makes them much better because I consider their biggest weakness to be the lack of reliable ways to get them to combat. Surprisingly enough they can take out a Knight, just give them a priest for rerolls and you're set. Of course they're dead after that, whether the explosion kills them or a stray wind blows their way, but they'll have taken out something pretty important and you'll still have the LR running about. Pretty hefty investment of points, but it's fun anyway.

So for HQ choices if you drop the techmarine (which I agree isn't the best fit anymore) I'd go with a librarian w/ jump pack. Not sure what other wargear I'd go with for him, but the psychic support alone would be a good investment I think.

Alright so after a long lengthy discussion where I was shown how dumb I was being by not taking any bikes even though I own 33 of them I've decided to swing with the White Scars as I don't want the bikes to eat up a FA slot for another drop pod.

=CAD: Sisters=
Hq
St. Celestine- 135

Troop
3x Sisters battle squad - 441
+5 gals + Big sis, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and Immolator w/ multimelta+

FA
2x Dominions -230
+4 gals + Big sis, 4 meltas, 1 combi-melta+
1x Dominions- 190
+9 gals + big sis, 4 meltas, 1 combi-melta, simulacarium imperialus+

HS
3x exorcists- 375

=CAD: White Scars=
HQ
Khan -175
+bike+

Troops
Scouts- 63
+4 guys + big bro, heavy bolter+

Bikes - 103
+2 guys+ big bro, 2x grav guns, 1 combi- grav+

FA
3x Drop pods-115

=Fortifications=
Void shield generator- 100
+3x shields+

1892/2000
I have 108 points left to play around with, I could drop a dominion from the big squad add another bike and Jakobus.
Or I could run another biker squad and find 5 points to sink into something.
Or I could kit out a librarian or techmarine on a bike and maybe add another dude to that unit.

Suggestions?

Get a SM Psyker in there -- you will deny on a 4+ (Adamantium Will is conferred IIRC) and with the Hood it can protect more than one squad.

Promethium Pipes are kind of cool too, it's cheap, you can get Torrent flamers as a bonus, and it might provide 4+ cover to the Exorcist as you were thinking at first. There's a formation which includes it with the VSG.

This is ITC; you can't take formations of forts.

 pretre wrote:
This is ITC; you can't take formations of forts.

Well I suppose that idea is out then

Culexus assassin is maybe an option too, especially since there's FA drop pods available to you. Just throwing out ideas, don't mind me...