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Ok so I trying to get back in to playing 40k . so I went out and got newest sm codex and wow what's up with formations. I played 2yrs in 5 ed 2yrs in 6ed.
took a brake as was geting burnt out on buying rules ever 2yrs. just when I learn them they Chang's so I am a little behind the 8 ball with stuff.
I still use foc to build my army's being use same list from 6ed till now built with foc in mind.
I been trying to find out how formations work for months now. With no luck I been watching battle reports with formations ever where fill I missing out.

So can some one explain to me like the idiot I am on how they work because I don't get it at all.

Like I seen the neuron one ever talks about I like wow how does that even work with all kinds of cool things for free and more troops then one aloud

Formations are kind of a separate force organization chart. You include the models in your army that the formation states are required, and you get the command benefits on the formation data slate for the models within the formation. They count as their own detachment, most of the time. The special rules do not confer to models included in your army that are not part of the formation.




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For example: (not a real formation)

Nurgle's chill dudes:

2-4 units of plague marines
1 daemon prince of nurgle
1 chaos lord or sorcerer of nurgle
1-3 units of nurgle spawn
1-3 obliterators of nurgle

Command benefits: any model in nurgle's chill dudes formation has the feel no pain 4+ ability and also gains shrouded.

So as long as you take the required units, they can act as their own detachment and get feel no pain 4+ and shrouded for free, because you restricted your army list to these particular models. You cannot add models that aren't in the list to a formation, but independent characters can deploy with units in the formation even if they are not part of it themselves.

For the rest of your list, you can take a normal combined arms detachment or another formation instead.

Formations are just another building block that you can use to build your army.

So you're currently using a "foc" (Force Organization Chart) - in 7th this is refered to as a "Combined Arms Detachment" (CAD) - 1 HQ, 2 Troops + optional stuff. A CAD is a list of Battlefield Roles (Elites, Fast Attack etc.) with minimums and maximums.

A formation comes with either a set of specific units (instead of Battlefield Roles), or a selection of units that you can mix-and-match (an Eldar Aspect Host, for example, can me made of three aspect units in almost any combination), and usually provides a bonus of some sort. Units in Formations do not take up 'slots' in your force organization charts, and are entirely separate detachments.

You're not forced to take a CAD, you can make an army entirely out of Formations if you wanted to. You can also make an army that contains a CAD and has some Formations too.

Units/Models can only belong to one Detachment or Formation (Formations are a type of Detachment), with one important exception: The "Decurion-style" Formations (or "Super Formation" or "Formation Flow Charts" etc.) are a Formation that, instead of a list of units that you can take choices from, you pick other Formations (from a list) or other choices that are almost formations but without any additional specific rules. Formations chosen as part of a Decurion-style get their own bonuses plus the Decurion bonuses!

You say you've got the SM codex, so I'll take some examples from there:
To make up a Gladius Strike Force (the "Decurion" equivalent), you must take at least one Demi-Company (the "Core" choice), and at least one choice from the Auxiliary list (a Suppression Force or 10th Company Task Force for example). You can then add any number of Auxiliary choices, one more Core (another Demi) and up to 3 "Command" choices. The entire Gladius must take the same Chapter Tactic.

Hope this helps?

So formations are legal armies? And the foc is not the standsdsard on how to build armies. So what's the standard way to build now. Like how many formations can I use and stuff like that

You build an army however you want. There is no standard anymore. It's really the simplest thing after you throw out everything you know and start from scratch. You build it with any number, any combination of Detachments and Formations. Or you build it Unbound, which is any models at all and any Formations.

There are two ways to make an army:

1) Unbound - Take any combination of models from your collection, total up their points, put them on the board. You could have an army consisting of every Space Marine special character from every Chapter and nothing else (no troops, etc.). Generally not allowed at tournaments, and local groups can frown on it. You can take Formations in an Unbound army (and they retain their bonuses), but cannot use a CAD or other FOC-based detachment.

2) Battle-Forged - Every unit and model belongs to a "Detachment". A detachment is a collection of units that either follows a Force Organization Chart (like the CAD mentioned above, but some codexes have unique FOCs that they can use), or a Formation with it's own specific rules as to what can be taken in it. You may have any number of Detachments, in (almost) any combination, and still be considered Battle-Forged, although some tournaments restrict army lists to two or three Detachments.

Three examples of legal Battle-Forged armies could be:
- A Combined Arms Detachment of Ultramarines (a Captain and two units of Scouts), with an Allied Detachment of Blood Angels (a Chaplain and a Tactical squad), and an Iron Hands Armoured Task Force (Techmarine, 3 units of Whirlwinds).

- A Gladius Strike Force of Ultramarines (Demi-Company + Suppression Force), with an Allied Detachment of Imperial Guard (aka Astra Militarium. A Company Command Squad and two units of Veterans), and an allied Inquisitorial Detachment (a single Ordos Xenos Inquisitor).

- A CAD of Chaos Space Marines, an Allied Detachment of Ultramarines, an Eldar "Aspect Host" Formation, an Assassin Detachment, an Imperial Knight Detachment, and a Harlequin "Cast of Players" Formation.

Not all codexes have a Gladius-equivalent, so plenty of people still use FOC-based armies, many use the super-formations, some mix-and-match FOC's and Formations. There really is tons of flexibility.

Basically armies are now built in "detachments." In the standard game you can have as many as you want. A CAD is a detachment: the benefit is Troops get Objective Secured, and you can reroll your warlord trait.

Some detachments give slots (like Elites Troops Heavy etc) and some, called Formations, specify units you must take. They usually give better or more specific boosts to those units.

For instance , Dark Artisan is a Dark Eldar formation with a Haemonculus and two pain engines. The benefit is that they deploy as a single 3 model unit.

So it is really do what ever I like. So how does that effect balance

Well, as always in 40 k if you spam the strongest stuff you can just win. But it is worth noting that the strongest thing currently actually is an optimized CAD.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, as always in 40 k if you spam the strongest stuff you can just win. But it is worth noting that the strongest thing currently actually is an optimized CAD.

Not sure how you figure that one... Gladius does better at holding Objectives, Decurion brings so much more durability and firepower, Eldar Windrider Warhost is just death and has to be FAQed locally to /reduce/ the strength available to it and so on and so forth. Before the Eldar and Space Marine books, yes, CAD was still the main contender, but right now the strong armies get stronger in their little fancy stuff than in a CAD. I think Dark Angels are the biggest exception to that since their Formations require too many things and too many hoops to jump through to take Deathwing and Ravenwing Detachments/Formations.

Balance is pretty much shot if you expect it across the whole game, as I just went into a little bit. It really is up to the player to get with their opponent and build something comparable. Real world example: I haven't been screwed over by my opponent unexpectedly bringing CHEESE yet even though the options are available. In a competitive environment, things like Skyhammer (a Space Marine Alpha Strike Formation) and Windrider Host (Scatter Laser Jetbikes all over the place with Wraithknights) are very difficult to beat but bringing a somewhat competitive Tyranid list and ITC FAQs meant I won against Skyhammer and wasn't tabled by the Eldar. There are people I refuse to play against though, and some events even locally that I just don't want to attend because of the cheese I know will be there. I am simply not a good enough player to handle that with what I have. But bringing a good amount of models with you instead of a set list means you can make those adjustments on the fly. I can still get a good game in with my Chaos Marines, who are the bottom of the barrel and the best example of bad list building I can do, just because I let my opponent know that the list is crap and we play a friendly game.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, as always in 40 k if you spam the strongest stuff you can just win. But it is worth noting that the strongest thing currently actually is an optimized CAD.

Not sure how you figure that one... Gladius does better at holding Objectives, Decurion brings so much more durability and firepower, Eldar Windrider Warhost is just death and has to be FAQed locally to /reduce/ the strength available to it and so on and so forth. Before the Eldar and Space Marine books, yes, CAD was still the main contender, but right now the strong armies get stronger in their little fancy stuff than in a CAD. I think Dark Angels are the biggest exception to that since their Formations require too many things and too many hoops to jump through to take Deathwing and Ravenwing Detachments/Formations.

Balance is pretty much shot if you expect it across the whole game, as I just went into a little bit. It really is up to the player to get with their opponent and build something comparable. Real world example: I haven't been screwed over by my opponent unexpectedly bringing CHEESE yet even though the options are available. In a competitive environment, things like Skyhammer (a Space Marine Alpha Strike Formation) and Windrider Host (Scatter Laser Jetbikes all over the place with Wraithknights) are very difficult to beat but bringing a somewhat competitive Tyranid list and ITC FAQs meant I won against Skyhammer and wasn't tabled by the Eldar. There are people I refuse to play against though, and some events even locally that I just don't want to attend because of the cheese I know will be there. I am simply not a good enough player to handle that with what I have. But bringing a good amount of models with you instead of a set list means you can make those adjustments on the fly. I can still get a good game in with my Chaos Marines, who are the bottom of the barrel and the best example of bad list building I can do, just because I let my opponent know that the list is crap and we play a friendly game.

Farseer Jetbike HQ.

Windriders with scatterlasers.

Wraithknight LOW.

Second Farseer HQ.

More windriders.

Second Wraithknight.

Repeat.

That is the current army to beat if you're going with an un modified ruleset. Windrider host does nothing but take away Obsec from the best objective securing units in the entire game and force you to waste points on a Vyper. It doesn't give any benefit to the optimal weapon configuration of Windriders (the scatter lasers). The only reason to take it is if your tournament has a detachment limit but not a LOW or Strength D nerf.

ITC has both, and the strength D nerf is basically aimed right at Wraithknights. Only reason Scatbike/wraithknight lists don't win as much. In the "wild Wild West" version of 40k (you know, the rules in the book) the above CAD repeated to the points limit with the Farseers rolling for Invisibility is the army to beat.

newguy1984 wrote:
So it is really do what ever I like. So how does that effect balance

I wouldn't say it's "do whatever you like" (though it does come close), as you still need to fulfill the requirements of the CAD or formation, and formations are basically detachments with very strict choices on what you can and can take+some buffs.

So there's know standard like a foc. Guess I really need structure on how I build my army. Not do what ever is best spam

There is no standard.

With each army having it’s own formations, you can’t make broad spectrum calls about what’s “normal”

You can still build an army using the old force org chart (now referred to as the CAD) and still put a viable army down on the table to play.

If you want to build with the new formations, there is free perks and power to be had there. But often restrictions on what you can take.

Building an army these days:
Pick a point value.
Pick a structure. This could be a CAD, or a Formation (like the battle demi-company)
--Take all the required selections (Like the HQ +2 troops in the CAD)
--(Optional) Take other stuff that fits into that structure (Like the second HQ, 3xFA/HS/Elite slots in the CAD)
Got points left? Take another formation/detachment and start over. Doesn’t even have to be the same army (but check the ally rules, there are problems with straying too far)
Once you run out of points, pick someone to be your warlord, and get ready to fight.

For a new SM player, I’d strongly recommend building towards a Gladius formation with the demi company. Older players wth legacy armies will still want to use a CAD. For example, I don’t own enough tanks to field the armored spearhead, so if I want my old predator to hit the table, I need to use a CAD. There are advantages to the old system. If I want some AA in my list with formations, I need to either field the 3 flyer stormwing or the one with the AA tanks. That’s overkill in most moderate point games IMHO, but with a CAD I can just field a single stormtalon in a FA slot and call it a day.

Do you have a copy of the 7th edition Rules yet? If not, go get a copy. Formations are explained in the new 7th ed Rulebook, along with some other changes in 7th ed (like the Psychic Phase).

As far as "standard" ways to build you army -- no, there isn't a standard. Some people build with a CAD (the old FoC), but you can also just bring one or more formations. In a casual game you will typically talk with your opponent and agree on what kinds of things to bring (e.g., only 2 detachments, yes/no Super Heavies, yes/no Lords of War, yes/no Fliers, allies, etc.). In a tournament setting you bring what is allowed by the tournament. Some tourneys only allow 2 sources, or limit the number of detachments, or impose other limits.

Yes I have the 7ed rule book I just try to get clarification on how it works. I guess am so use to the foc way of building stuff. and have started in 5 ed that was the standard way to go. I mean I basically been using same list sense I started playing only thing I have add was flyers I was told keep using same list till you master it so I been doing that. But it feels so blah now

To be honest? I use a CAD (or CAD equivalent, some armies now have unique versions of the CAD in their books with different slots) in all my army lists. I think the flexibility of it outweighs the benefits I get from using big crazy formations.

The only formations I tend to use are small ones that let me play a unit in a different way. For instance, I have one that let's me take three independent characters from my codex, and it gives them infiltrate and Stealth/Shrouded, but they're no longer independent characters (they have to stay by themselves). I use it because I think it's cool, and makes more sense in my army than having all these guys running around clumped in squads.

Formations aren't mandatory. But they're often fun. Think of them as an option, an add on, rather than some new way you have to build a list.

Ok I kind of get it just like a set way to run your army bugs me. Are pick up games going to be harder to do because you got no idea what's coming

Well, you just gotta keep in mind the formations that exist might make a unit play differently than you're used to. Like any GW rules there are stupid OP ones and ones that are super bad so nobody uses them. 99.9999% of players don't use "unbound" or whatever that crap is, but you will often see formations as they can be quite fun.

But do I really need to build toward a battle company as most people say you need to do I would need to get lots more rhinos and marines I need like 3 more tac squads one more assault squad then I couldn't use my stern squad our flyers right

I think that "people not playing unbound" statistic was a little exaggerated... I myself use unbound often, and so do people in my gaming group.

I've also read posts of others on this site using unbound, so it's not just us.

Not to be pedantic or anything, but if he wants to build his army in an unbound way, he should know that it's a brb supported, valid way to play the game. It may be frowned on by some, however it's still valid. You just don't get any command benefits.

You don't have to do a Gladius. Every marine player at my club has actually abandoned the Gladius because while you may win a game or two with the free transports, you tend to just get beaten on while you secure objectives, and not many marine players really liked the space marines as a "meat grinder" army.

The basic Demi company is strong which paired with the cad let's you bring some stuff that can actually kill stuff.

The big super formations, while their benefits are cool, often limit you from taking the really Killy stuff. The Gladius is by no means something you "have to" take, especially when it would mean you wouldn't get to use most of the cool models in your collection.

Despite what GW may want you to believe, shelving your favorite models so you can buy 10 identical vehicle kits and field them for free isn't mandatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, I'm saying that with what you already have you've got a Demi company already. I'm not saying you should go out and get a Gladius

In my experience, people tend to confuse the SM formations.

A Battle Demi-Company is the Core formation. An HQ, 3x Tactical Squad, 1x "Assault" unit, 1x "Devastator" unit. Optional Command Squad and Dreadnought Squad. You get ObSec and one use of the Tactical Doctrine.

A Gladius takes a BDC, and adds an Auxiliarly formation. If you do this, you gain one use of each Doctrine [thus, you have 2 uses of the Tactical, one Assault and one Dev].

A "Battle Company" is a Gladius, that includes 2 core formations, plus an Aux. In addition to the above benefits, you get free transports for everyone, though you pay for upgrades. Hypothetically, you get a ton of free HB Razorbacks. This formation, using all 5-man squads, starts around 1200 points, by the time you also buy the Aux formation. And now you've got a bunch of bolter wielding dudes, running around in Heavy Bolter Razorbacks. Hypothetically you get about 10 free Razorbacks. If you upgrade each one with a better-than-Heavy Bolter gun, you're already up to 1400 points. If, for the giggles, you spend 15 points on upgrades for each unit, you're looking at 1550 points. Want HQ that can do something? Let's go to 1750. So you have 10 x 5-man mediocre units, in Razorbacks with decent guns, with a couple of HQ that don't really do much for you, supported by a Techmarine with 3 Whirlwinds. No unit is "optimized" by any means. Just not rocking 50 bolters.


I find each of these builds to be PAINFULLY limiting in terms of what you can actually play with. I'm no fan of Tactical Squads, and now I've got to spend half my points on them? feth off. I find I can build much stronger lists at 1500 to 1850 points, when playing with CAD. [The old standard way to build.]

If you think about it, the reason to take a Gladius is to gain access to abilities that boost your accuracy. Ultramarine, Salamander, and Imperial Fist tactics already do that. [You can't use more than one doctrine per turn, so UM's just wind up with more doctrines than they reasonably need.] So the "benefit" is usually outweighed by the penalty of sticking to the Gladius.

White Scars want to take bikes, and you only get one "bike slot" in the Gladius, unless you take Command Squad Bikers. Again, White Scar CT are much more useful taking a CAD, so that you can take all those bikes. Ravenguard Tactics, in the Codex, are weak, and their ideal build doesn't mesh with a Gladius. Templars are sooooo gakky that nothing fixes them.

Iron Hands have a straight defensive bonus, so using the Gladius has straight offensive benefits for them. They're the only Chapter that I would consider using a Gladius with. They get the most out of the Benefits, without being insanely hobbled by the build structure.

Ok so how does a demi company work the way I understand it is I need to take a auxiliary unit to use a demi company and I don't want to do thar

Well, like I said in the post above, you can take a Battle Demi-Company by itself. The first formation I outlined, without an Auxiliary. However, the benefit of doing that is that you gain ObSec [You can do that with CAD] and a single use of the Tactical Doctrine.

To gain the additional 3 uses of Doctrines, you need to take an Auxiliary, which makes it a Gladius.

A Gladius + another BDC gives you free Transports.

So if you're taking a BDC, and then using a CAD to fill the rest of your points, you would need to effectively purchase 2 HQ, 5 Troops, one FA, one HS as your MINIMUM choices. Which would be crappy, since the Tactical Doctrine only benefits the models from the BDC. So don't do that, it's a bad idea. Units purchased from a BDC do not "count towards" the requirements of a CAD.

Instead, build a CAD with the parts of a BDC, if you're so inclined, and then use the rest of the FOC to buy the fun stuff you want to play with.

newguy1984 wrote:
Ok so how does a demi company work the way I understand it is I need to take a auxiliary unit to use a demi company and I don't want to do thar

Taking an auxiliary is required for it to be a Gladius Strike Force. You can take a Demi-Company on all its own, but you'll only get the Demi-Company buffs without anything the Gladius gives you. So you'll have army-wide Objective Secured, and one use of Tactical Doctrine.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, like I said in the post above, you can take a Battle Demi-Company by itself. The first formation I outlined, without an Auxiliary. However, the benefit of doing that is that you gain ObSec [You can do that with CAD] and a single use of the Tactical Doctrine.

To gain the additional 3 uses of Doctrines, you need to take an Auxiliary, which makes it a Gladius.

A Gladius + another BDC gives you free Transports.

So if you're taking a BDC, and then using a CAD to fill the rest of your points, you would need to effectively purchase 2 HQ, 5 Troops, one FA, one HS as your MINIMUM choices. Which would be crappy, since the Tactical Doctrine only benefits the models from the BDC. So don't do that, it's a bad idea. Units purchased from a BDC do not "count towards" the requirements of a CAD.

Instead, build a CAD with the parts of a BDC, if you're so inclined, and then use the rest of the FOC to buy the fun stuff you want to play with.

I only recommended that because when he listed what he already had, it was 5 tactical squads a captain a chaplain assault marines Devastators and a podding dread, then other stuff. Basically he's got a Demi plus a cad.

And, instead of being stupid, he could just take all of that as a CAD.

[Unfortunately, written word doesn't translate the playful manner in which that statement was intended. ]

So, probably don't take 5 Tactical Squads. Use some of those as a Command Squad, and give them lots of Special Weapons. Or... anything but Tacticals, really. Plus, as the collection expands, it's much easier to include those new pieces as part of a CAD. Taking a BDC is pointlessly handcuffing your build options.

[Again, not intended to sound gruff. More friendly ball-busting than anything.]

That's my take on building SM lists, anyhow. What Chapter Tactics were you considering? I've expressed that Iron Hands are probably the "best" option to pursue a Gladius, in my mind. So if you're going any other direction but that, CAD is probably the way to go.

As a UM player the demi-company is nice because I get to use my doctrines again, but I do agree that a CAD is great for list building just because of the freedom you have. Again, depends on the CT of the army as greatbigtree said.

The Gladius lets you reuse your Doctrines. A BDC just gives you an extra Tactical. That's what I mean, everyone mixes the terms up. Ignorance. Srsly.