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Something that came up in a thread elsewhere.

Basically, I'm just curious as to why Eldar Exarchs seem so much better than other sergeants (+1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1I, usually come with extra rules etc.), but don't cost anything extra, compared to sergeants of other races?

Is there a reason for this?

Because they are elite. subs to watch

Nope. If Space Marine Sergeants were half as good I'd actually purchase them.

Mostly fluff, I suspect. Experience-wise, an Exarch would be more equivalent to a Space Marine Captain than a Sergeant.

Don't bother using fluff as an excuse. You know which road that leads to.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't bother using fluff as an excuse. You know which road that leads to.

I'm not. I'm using it as an explanation.

Quite a lot of GW's design decisions are made purely to suit the fluff.

 insaniak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't bother using fluff as an excuse. You know which road that leads to.

I'm not. I'm using it as an explanation.

Quite a lot of GW's design decisions are made purely to suit the fluff.

Why are space marines not 200pts each, with stats being 6s across the board, and with a 2+ save, and firing a S7 rapid gun (it really is an automatic rocket launcher!)

Terminators should be 500pts, 2+ re-roll save, and 2+ invulnerable, with SBs being S7, assault 6

I'd actually prefer space marines being like that, suits their elite nature.

kburn wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't bother using fluff as an excuse. You know which road that leads to.

I'm not. I'm using it as an explanation.

Quite a lot of GW's design decisions are made purely to suit the fluff.

Why are space marines not 200pts each, with stats being 6s across the board, and with a 2+ save, and firing a S7 rapid gun (it really is an automatic rocket launcher!)

Terminators should be 500pts, 2+ re-roll save, and 2+ invulnerable, with SBs being S7, assault 6

I'd actually prefer space marines being like that, suits their elite nature.

Well for one thing, that doesn't sell models, and GW has clearly pushed towards larger and larger battles that include more models rather than the skirmish-esque beginnings of 40K. And its funny you should say that because GW has released movie marine rules before. Also, its sort of weird that you feel that marines don't fit the fluff, sure they aren't OP on an individual basis but the fact that the majority of the game is based around their statline being the norm and metric for the worth of several units rather than the more human stats of guardsmen or Tau shows the defining nature of marines. Necrons and Eldar have only become the exception recently due to their super power boosts via formations and even then it fits fluff-wise given that they're the factions that most often give marines a good run for their money.

kburn wrote:

Why are space marines not 200pts each, with stats being 6s across the board, and with a 2+ save, and firing a S7 rapid gun (it really is an automatic rocket launcher!).

Because that's not how GW chose to represent them.

With the stat range that 40K has, there is only so much variation that you can show between 'regular human' and 'enhanced human' while still leaving room for the really nasty stuff. So 1 point on any given stat represents (fluffwise) a fairly significant difference.

Keep in mind that, say, Strength 3 covers a range that includes Eldar Guardians, regular Humans and Ork Boys... There's a fairly wide gulf there fluffwise, but in game terms it's not a big enough difference to matter.

Exarchs, on the other hand, are so much better than regular Aspect warriors because Exarchs are supposed to be significantly better than regular Aspect warriors, and the difference is significantly greater than the difference between most other regular troopers and their sergeants (or equivalent)..

kburn wrote:
Why are space marines not 200pts each, with stats being 6s across the board, and with a 2+ save, and firing a S7 rapid gun (it really is an automatic rocket launcher!)

Mostly because they genuinely are S4/T4, I would presume.

 vipoid wrote:
Something that came up in a thread elsewhere.

Basically, I'm just curious as to why Eldar Exarchs seem so much better than other sergeants (+1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1I, usually come with extra rules etc.), but don't cost anything extra, compared to sergeants of other races?

Is there a reason for this?

I guess because everyone just likes to sit around and hate on Eldar nobody took the time to read the actual question? The premise is wrong, Exarchs cost 10 points extra.

They used to not be worth taking, because they cost 10 points to upgrade a warrior to an exarch, then even more points for their special rules after that, and they didn't get the extra wounds. The special rules aren't as good now in general, and there are no options for what to take like there used to be, but the single special rule plus the stat line is definitely worth 10 points most of the time.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Something that came up in a thread elsewhere.

Basically, I'm just curious as to why Eldar Exarchs seem so much better than other sergeants (+1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1I, usually come with extra rules etc.), but don't cost anything extra, compared to sergeants of other races?

Is there a reason for this?

I guess because everyone just likes to sit around and hate on Eldar nobody took the time to read the actual question? The premise is wrong, Exarchs cost 10 points extra.

They said "compared to sergeants of other races". Meaning they're saying that upgrading to an Eldar Exarch doesn't cost any more than upgrading to a Veteran Superior or Sergeant.

Don't forget they have an extra attack as well.

For comparison, a Veteran Sergeant gets +1LD, and an extra attack. This is the same price, while an exarch gets basically everything as a bonus besides LD, while NEITHER army lacks in the LD department anyway. Plus, with the amount of shooting anyway, LD matters much less than it used to.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Something that came up in a thread elsewhere.

Basically, I'm just curious as to why Eldar Exarchs seem so much better than other sergeants (+1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1I, usually come with extra rules etc.), but don't cost anything extra, compared to sergeants of other races?

Is there a reason for this?

I guess because everyone just likes to sit around and hate on Eldar nobody took the time to read the actual question? The premise is wrong, Exarchs cost 10 points extra.

They said "compared to sergeants of other races". Meaning they're saying that upgrading to an Eldar Exarch doesn't cost any more than upgrading to a Veteran Superior or Sergeant.

Looks like Deathypoo didn't take the time to read the question either.

Heck tau sarges are +1LD +1A for 10 points. that LD is useful, but the A? we're still tau.

There is no real reason why eldar (and admech) get much superior sarges to anyone else, its just that whoever made it at firs t had them as their favorites, and it stuck.

EVERYONE should have seriously superior sarges, maybe people will start actually taking sarge upgrades. (and to be honest, even with the full exarch statline buff, I'll still probably won't upgrade any infantry grade tau, just suits.)

Possibly because unlike most other races, the squads they are attached to are usually fragile as hell and need all the boosts they can get?

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Possibly because unlike most other races, the squads they are attached to are usually fragile as hell and need all the boosts they can get?

DE are even more fragile, and their sergeants still only get the usual +1A and +1Ld.

 vipoid wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Possibly because unlike most other races, the squads they are attached to are usually fragile as hell and need all the boosts they can get?

DE are even more fragile, and their sergeants still only get the usual +1A and +1Ld.

Ah, but we all know that anything which even looks like chaos has to be pants

From memory however (playing against DE), most DE specialist troops get poison and other USR's that make them significantly more effective than their stats might otherwise suggest.

 vipoid wrote:
Something that came up in a thread elsewhere.

Basically, I'm just curious as to why Eldar Exarchs seem so much better than other sergeants (+1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1I, usually come with extra rules etc.), but don't cost anything extra, compared to sergeants of other races?

Is there a reason for this?

Not really except they had to boost everything in the new codex otherwise they would have had something at the same level as other armies.

Poor poor Dark Eldar Wyches..............

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Possibly because unlike most other races, the squads they are attached to are usually fragile as hell and need all the boosts they can get?

DE are even more fragile, and their sergeants still only get the usual +1A and +1Ld.

Ah, but we all know that anything which even looks like chaos has to be pants

From memory however (playing against DE), most DE specialist troops get poison and other USR's that make them significantly more effective than their stats might otherwise suggest.

Bladestorm is MUCH superior to Poison.
Your justification is bad and you should feel bad.

Eldar Exarchs have been a cut above for a while now, at least since 4th edition I think. I've always liked it as it's encouraged me to take exarchs, and I can think of plenty of times where my exarchs did something that a sergeant or a shas'ui never would.

As far as justification for them being the same price, I don't think there is one. Exarchs get far more for the points than other sergeants, the only ones coming close being ork nobz (who are so far down the pole nobody notices) and apparantly the mechanicum guys, though I don't have their book so I don't know.

I wish other races sergeants at least got pushed up to 2 wounds, as I feel it would encourage people to spend some points on their sergeants, and would give them more of a chance in challenges against HQs (though obviously they should lose more often than not). I would still like exarchs to be a cut above with their powers and higher ws/bs (yes I know, special eldar snowflakes, I can't help it!), but increase the cost of their upgrade to account for it.

Come on GW, buff the sergeants!

 Tarvitz77 wrote:
Eldar Exarchs have been a cut above for a while now, at least since 4th edition I think. I've always liked it as it's encouraged me to take exarchs, and I can think of plenty of times where my exarchs did something that a sergeant or a shas'ui never would.

As far as justification for them being the same price, I don't think there is one. Exarchs get far more for the points than other sergeants, the only ones coming close being ork nobz (who are so far down the pole nobody notices) and apparantly the mechanicum guys, though I don't have their book so I don't know.

I wish other races sergeants at least got pushed up to 2 wounds, as I feel it would encourage people to spend some points on their sergeants, and would give them more of a chance in challenges against HQs (though obviously they should lose more often than not). I would still like exarchs to be a cut above with their powers and higher ws/bs (yes I know, special eldar snowflakes, I can't help it!), but increase the cost of their upgrade to account for it.

Come on GW, buff the sergeants!

Mechanicum Sergeants (including Skitarii in this) are a part of the unit regardless of whether or not you choose to buy them. The basic sergeant has +1W, +1A, +1L, so he's not quite as good as an Exarch, but he's still better than most sarges.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bladestorm is MUCH superior to Poison.
Your justification is bad and you should feel bad.

Ah, yes, because I forgot bladestorm helps against MC's. And in CC, where 3/4 of the exarch's stat boosts actually benefit him...

The issue with Sargent pricing isn't really that Eldar pay 10 points for theirs, but rather that the other factions do. Giving an entire squad of Fire Dragons BS5 is probably worth more than 10 points, but giving a +1 ld and having one additional attack on one model is not worth even 10 points.

Exarchs are pretty much the only example of people ever choosing to pay points for a squad leader... it's rarely worth it to buy one for Marine squads.

Kroot shaper gets +1 A, +1 L and +2(!!!) wounds for 15pts. Just some food for thought.

I think it is a return to the good old days when Exarchs came from the HQ budget and were genuinely bad-ass.

 Fifty wrote:
I think it is a return to the good old days when Exarchs came from the HQ budget and were genuinely bad-ass.

This. Exarchs are more than just 'unit sergeants', they're legendary heroes in the storytelling sense. A Space Marine Sergeant is a guy who leads his squad. He may not be any more experienced or badass than any other marine, he just happens to have been put in charge. Maybe he had a decade or two more experience (veteran). An Eldar Exarch is the Hero of Another Story who happens to have pledged their weapon to your HQ's cause.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
I think it is a return to the good old days when Exarchs came from the HQ budget and were genuinely bad-ass.

This. Exarchs are more than just 'unit sergeants', they're legendary heroes in the storytelling sense. A Space Marine Sergeant is a guy who leads his squad. He may not be any more experienced or badass than any other marine, he just happens to have been put in charge. Maybe he had a decade or two more experience (veteran). An Eldar Exarch is the Hero of Another Story who happens to have pledged their weapon to your HQ's cause.

Shouldn't the point cost reflect that then? Right now, it does not.

I would love it if Aspiring Champions and Sergeants had access to some sort of mini-special rule that applies to the squad (like mini-feats in WMH). Some 1 use power that allows the squad to do something interesting that makes the basic infantry a bit better on the table, but doesn't show up the better characters/rules that always grant the USR.

Example,
Aspiring champion Rule
Once per game, the unit gains the shrouded special rule (+10 points). (AL or NL)
Once per game, the unit gains preferred enemy (everything) (+10 points) (WE or BL)
The unit may take one additional special or heavy weapon (+10 points) (IW)
Once per game, the unit gains poison 4+ (+5 points) (DG)

Something like that for every army. Like IG orders but weaker. Probably would have to redo the game though

Akiasura wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
I think it is a return to the good old days when Exarchs came from the HQ budget and were genuinely bad-ass.

This. Exarchs are more than just 'unit sergeants', they're legendary heroes in the storytelling sense. A Space Marine Sergeant is a guy who leads his squad. He may not be any more experienced or badass than any other marine, he just happens to have been put in charge. Maybe he had a decade or two more experience (veteran). An Eldar Exarch is the Hero of Another Story who happens to have pledged their weapon to your HQ's cause.

Shouldn't the point cost reflect that then? Right now, it does not.

Yeah, it's not so much that Exarchs have better stats, it's that they have them but don't pay anything extra for them.

They are priced like that because GW has a love affair with reducing point costs with every new edition.