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So a little bit about me. I've been a long time 40k player and over the last few months I've noticed the amount of 40k players dwindling at my FLGS. As someone who mostly had 40k armies this was sort of an issue for me, as it was getting harder and harder for me to get games in. And while 40k was dwindling my store's Warmahordes community was still going strong. Then I remembered that a long time ago (2 years to be exact) I had started a small Cygnar army. Now my first foray into it didn't last long, as they learning curve sort of scared me away from it. After I remembered that I looked through my old models and found the remnants of my old Cygnar force and I've decided to take another crack at it with my old Cygnar. A few of my friends at the LGS gave me some of their unused Cygnar stuff to help me get back into it. I have:

Commander Coleman Stryker
Journeyman Warcaster

Ironclad
Lancer
Charger
Cyclone (gift)
Defender (gift)
2 Hunters (gift)
Grenadier (gift)


10 Trenchers (Leader and 9 Grunts)
10 Long Gunners (Leader and 9 Grunts)

As you can see, I have a fair number of Warjacks that were given to me as gifts, and a few units that I picked up my first time around with Cygnar. Now I could use some advice as to units/jacks/warcasters to pick up at some point. I'm aware that most units in Warmachine can work, and that it's more my skills as a general that will help me win or lose, but what are some good expansion points for Cygnar from what I have currently? I like the looks of the Trencher units, along with Long Gunners and Rangers. Any and all help is appreciated.

So you have a lot of jacks. A lot. The funny thing about warmachine is that you actually don't run that many machines, and usually run more infantry. So that, and some support models should be where you start.

Stryker himself is a great caster to start with. He is a general all around caster who likes to buff his army. The long gunners could be ok with him, but he has no real synergy with the trenchers. You can use them, but will probably find another unit performs better once you get one.

I would start with getting a squire to support stryker. I would get a journeyman wwarcaster to run one of your many jacks. Also, get a unit of arcane tempest gun mages. They work well with almost any caster. With those three purchases, you will have a working 50 point list. It won't be perfect, but warmachine comes down to player skill more than net listing.

There is a STEEP learning curve, especially if you're the new guy. The best advice I can give you is stick to the same list until you know it inside and out Then you can switch a unit if you think it would help. Don't go trying new lists every week, especially when you're starting out.

Hope that helps.

 squall018 wrote:
So you have a lot of jacks. A lot. The funny thing about warmachine is that you actually don't run that many machines, and usually run more infantry. So that, and some support models should be where you start.

Stryker himself is a great caster to start with. He is a general all around caster who likes to buff his army. The long gunners could be ok with him, but he has no real synergy with the trenchers. You can use them, but will probably find another unit performs better once you get one.

I would start with getting a squire to support stryker. I would get a journeyman wwarcaster to run one of your many jacks. Also, get a unit of arcane tempest gun mages. They work well with almost any caster. With those three purchases, you will have a working 50 point list. It won't be perfect, but warmachine comes down to player skill more than net listing.

There is a STEEP learning curve, especially if you're the new guy. The best advice I can give you is stick to the same list until you know it inside and out Then you can switch a unit if you think it would help. Don't go trying new lists every week, especially when you're starting out.

Hope that helps.

Hey thanks for that. Yeah I was given most of those Jacks as gifts from friends. Prior to that the only jacks I had were the ones from the battle group. I have heard a fair bit about the squire and gun mages, so I'll be sure to pick some up at some point. Any idea how to run Rangers?

 War Kitten wrote:
Any idea how to run Rangers?

Sure, give them the order then move them up to double their SPD characteristic.

Ho ho ho

But seriously, don't sacrifice too many at once, a 5" bubble is huge and 1 model, 2 max can often tag all of a unit that you're likely to kill. This will mean you can get multiple turns of the +2 bonus rather than just 1

Rangers are good when you have other ranged units to get the most out of their special abilities. They are a support unit that has some offense. You bring them to make your other shooty units better.

This is where you need to go.

http://battlecollege.org/Cygnar

A a general rule you need one of each of the most common infantry units and as many warcasters as you want in your collection. This is an inexpensive way to get a lot of variety. I would really avoid spamming units, no matter how good they are unless you want to sink a lot of money into the faction. One of each of the core units plus a selection of warcasters is much better. You get to see the variety of the faction see how things work and while swapping out one unit has a minor difference to your army, swapping one one model - the warcaster changes it entirely,

I would start by buying Haley1/pHaley/Captain Haley, a unit of Gun Mages, a unit of Field Mechanics and a Squire. It will provide you with an alternate warcaster who works very differently to Stryker, some good infantry support and the jacks you have already got. You can improve on that with specific lists, but it is a good core to start with and most of the above will be useful

 Orlanth wrote:
This is where you need to go.

http://battlecollege.org/Cygnar

A a general rule you need one of each of the most common infantry units and as many warcasters as you want in your collection. This is an inexpensive way to get a lot of variety. I would really avoid spamming units, no matter how good they are unless you want to sink a lot of money into the faction. One of each of the core units plus a selection of warcasters is much better. You get to see the variety of the faction see how things work and while swapping out one unit has a minor difference to your army, swapping one one model - the warcaster changes it entirely,

I would start by buying Haley1/pHaley/Captain Haley, a unit of Gun Mages, a unit of Field Mechanics and a Squire. It will provide you with an alternate warcaster who works very differently to Stryker, some good infantry support and the jacks you have already got. You can improve on that with specific lists, but it is a good core to start with and most of the above will be useful

Thank you for the advice. I'll pick up a squire and some gun mages the next time I'm at the FLGS. Got my first game scheduled for this weekend. Here's hoping I don't lose too badly

Good luck this weekend and remember to have fun. WMH has a steep learning curve so don't expect to win many of your first games.

Also make sure to get the UA for the Gun Mages. He makes them go to "11".

While battlebox games don't translate well, tactics wise, to larger games, they are a great way to learn the rules. I'd consider playing a few of them. After that, you can sprinkle in some slightly larger games without getting overwhelmed.

It will likely take a decent number of games just to learn the basic rules and broadest tactics. Buy slowly, but most of the recommended units here are staples for Cygnar.

Yep. I have my first game in a long while this Sunday. I need to re-learn pretty much all of the rules. It's going to be a long road to get all of the units.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Also make sure to get the UA for the Gun Mages. He makes them go to "11".

True, but that can be added later. You get good function just from the basic team.

Field Mechanics are a higher priority, they are only OK, not one of the best units but as this army will be 'jack heavy for a while it pays to be able to support the warjacks.

Alright. Got my first game in today, and as expected, I got slaughtered. But I did learn a few valuable things. PStryker's feat can be just mean with an Ironclad (super high armor for the win!), and that PSorscha can be VERY good at assassination if you don't know what you're doing.

While I was there I also was able to pick up:

Gun Mages+UA
Long Gunner Officer and Standard
Trencher Officer and Sniper.

My FLGS didn't have any of the Haley's or a Squire in stock, so they're on my list to pick up still.

Boomhowlers are pretty cool as a melee choice, but you need Murdoch if you want them to get faction-only bonuses.

A little late here, but here are my 2 cents.

The Trenchers and Long Gunners are, unfortunately, on the poor end of the infantry spectrum. Trenchers have gotten some new attention with Haley3 though, so there may be hope there.

Trencher's main problem is they are just too expensive. They would be a decent unit if they were cheaper. Haley3 does let you get more use out of them with Tactical Supremacy letting them move out of the clouds they can generate, meaning they survive longer(as its usually they drop clouds and your opponent just kills them anyway, meaning you get one good turn of protection) and she can also Revive them if needed.

Long Gunners are also too expensive, and they also need to be stationary to get full effect out of their shooting. The game as it is isn't friendly to anything which has to be stationary. They also need to CRA to hit with any accuracy, which halves the number of shots they make. Dual Shot helps, but it again makes them need to be stationary. They also have awful def and arm.


The stars of Cygnar's infantry are Gunmages, Boomhowlers, and Rangers(As a cygnar player, get used to fielding mercenaries). Gunmages are what does the most work in the list. Boomhowlers are a tarpit unit, which Cygnar completely lacks as everything in faction is too expensive or too squishy. Rangers are a force multiplier for you other shooting units, like your jacks and Gun Mages, and they aren't bad shots themselves.

Thank you for the advice. It's rather unfortunate that Trenchers and Long Gunners aren't that great, as they're my favorite Cygnar unit aesthetically (they're what got me into the faction to begin with!) But at least there's some light for Trenchers with Haley 3...

 War Kitten wrote:
Thank you for the advice. It's rather unfortunate that Trenchers and Long Gunners aren't that great, as they're my favorite Cygnar unit aesthetically (they're what got me into the faction to begin with!) But at least there's some light for Trenchers with Haley 3...

Don't get too down. We're not talking 40k levels of power difference. Your units will work. I use Steelhead riflemen and they're often billed as one of Merc's worst units. You can make it work if you fit them into a coherent strategy.

Indeed, though as a new player I wouldn't try to tackle this type of challenge till you've become much better at the game. No need to make the learning curve even harder on yourself.

I'll keep that in mind thanks. It's certainly a culture shock going from playing 40k only to mixing in Warmachine

Also, unless you play with complete jerks, they'll let you proxy the trenchers as rangers.

One thing I like about rangers is that they are Def14, speed 7, and not horribly expensive (compared to most of cygnar), and can also serve as decent jammers even if you don't need the shooting bonus.

So after another day of test games I'm pleased to say I'm starting to get a hang of the rules. Another great thing was that my FLGS is having a 40% off sale for Warmahordes this month, so I was able to pick up the following:

Squire
Captain Victoria Haley
Major Victoria Haley
Archduke Runewood.

Ok, next stop is probably Darius or Kraye.

These two are your faction "warjack casters". That is to say a warcaster who benefits from running a lot of warjacks. in Warmachine most forces almost regardless of points level will include one or two warjacks and a lot of infantry. Some have more, Cryx and Menoth can have one or two more but still need a lot of infantry.
However every faction has models that go the other way by design. As you have eight warjacks and have a journeyman warcaster, it would be nice to get to use them.

Look here on battlecollege to read up on these two warcasters:

http://battlecollege.org/Captain+Jeremiah+Kraye

http://battlecollege.org/Captain+E.+Dominic+Darius+%26+Halfjacks


As for Trenchers and Longgunners, don't despair of them both are perfectly servicable. Just dont sink a lot more points into them, one unit of each is fine and use them alternately or with specialist lists.
Both these units have been in the game from the beginning, Mk1 Prime. To some extent they have been superceded as both were intended to be plain Jane line units. Gun Mages were also in the first release but were always specialist units. Warmachine have evolved to benefit specialist units.

Longgunners in particular can bring a lot of hurt and were very popular back in the day. They are a good choice for range boosting spells (aka Snipe) even now. They can be a very nice second line unit, behind your main force and acting in support of it, squishy, but you shouldn't have them up front. They are shooty and the opponent will not like that, and they may attract more attention than they are worth.
You need to rank up for CRA which means they can be killed by AOE easily. The trick is not to rank up completely but to space them out into pairs in base contact. You cant to shoot in pairs as a rule for best effect, lots of separate pairs at whatever target blunders into LOS, range buffs still affect the entire unit but AOE vulnerability is mitigated somewhat.

Longgunners have a lot of damage potential and therefore are priority targets. If you make them inconvenient to get to they can support you well from behind or disperse into a cloud and absorb more firepower than they are worth. If your Longgunners die in pairs to AOE blasts they are still doing their job, by attracting long range fire off other things.

Because of the recommended way of using them the UA is of less value than it looks. The suppression fire is nice but the effect can be replicated elsewhere and you miss out on the killing firepower. The standard bearer is a waste of a gun, because he doesn't have one.

Trenchers are more problematic, they have lots of special rules to make them good dug in infantry. The trouble is Cygnar are not strong on resilient units, and the in house ones are inferior to what they can hire in from outside.
By and large while clearly a ranged unit to make any use of them you have to risk melee combat. Might as well just take a tougher melee unit instead. This is where Boomhowler comes in nicely.
Still Trenchers dont suck, they are just less than optimum, they are also a toolbox unit, those can be useful as you maintain verstility with your army.
If you bring a specialist force to battle consider Trenchers to have a generalist unit to help out if things dont work out to plan, they will be a lot more effective than trying to repurpose a specialist unit on the fly.

That is some very helpful advice. Thank you! Any suggestions for units to pick up? Right now I have the Long Gunners, the Trenchers, and the Gun Mages (plus UA for all 3)? I was looking into Rangers potentially, as it seems like they can do wonders to help out my units (and they have good speed/def from what I can see)

Rangers are probably the next (and oen of the few) "must have" units. The Black 13th are too good not to own as well.

After that, you'll be looking at some Mercs. Boomhowlers are great tarpits, while the Nyss Hunters work very well with Cygnar.

That all said... take a breath. Play some games with what you have. Proxy a unit or two. Lean what you like.

Orlanth, when you talk about CRA making Long Gunners vulnerable to AOE's, what specifically did you mean? They don't have to be base-to-base, so I'm assuming you had something else in mind. What is that?

Sorry to highjack.

He may be getting ranked attacks involved with CRA somehow? That or it's a hang over from Mk 1.

Ranked attacks has nothing to do with being BtB either. It just means other friendly models ignore the models with ranked attacks when drawing LoS.

This Nemo can also go warjack-heavy, since his assistant makes him focus efficient:
http://battlecollege.org/Artificer+General+Nemo+%26+Storm+Chaser+Adept+Caitlin+Finch

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Orlanth, when you talk about CRA making Long Gunners vulnerable to AOE's, what specifically did you mean? They don't have to be base-to-base, so I'm assuming you had something else in mind. What is that?

Sorry to highjack.

Base to base isnt necessary under Mk2 rules, however it is useful. Deploy the pairs in little columns of two soldiers, in base contact so they count as one and dont interfere with lanes of fire, and also to make spacing more efficient allowing room to move and sight troops between.

It also makes things easier, if you pair up the models you can see what can shoot what and ranging is simplified. Order of doing things is important in Warmachine and the rules entitle people to be picky over ranges just out and things not done in precise order in a way that is uncommon with other games. I tend to find that if you have clous of infantry and allocate pairs from it mistakes can be made and one of the pair is just outside range etc.