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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Pittsburgh, PA, USA

I'm sure this will be a divisive topic, but why is a large, successful gaming company going all hat-in-hand on Kickstarter for a board game they could fund themselves? I will not be providing links or even calling the game by its name, but does anyone else think this is ridiculous? Or are there so many people who are blindly brand-loyal that they'll just wet their pants and throw money at PP for some KS exclusives and not care one bit that a large company is looking for a handout?

Let's be honest: KS is a preorder mechanic that allows large game companies to avoid the normal distribution channels, make a ton of money on a product upfront, and not risk a single dime of their own money.

   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander





Ramsden Heath, Essex

Derisking development would seem the obvious reason. I don't personally agree with doing that at your customers expense.

Alternatively PP have traditionally had problems producing enough product which might be an indicator of strained cashflow/liquidity. A Kickstarter would obviously let them have the cash closer to their production costs.

Last one before bed: they sell allot of product through distributors and independents thus seeing allot of discounted sales. Kickstarter will give them (assuming success) a whole slew of cash with only KS fees deducted. Rather attractive margin-wise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 00:27:44


How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






It being a board game maybe they wanted to test the waters before going in head first, even though they "should" be able to fund it them selves as a decent sized company. though i wouldn't know as im not their accountant.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

They got $1.5 million a few years ago for their Warmachine video game through Kickstarter.

I think the "why" is pretty clear, as you stated its relatively risk free money.

I haven't paid attention to PP since abandoning Warmachine after the MKII rules came out, but when I used to play the company seemed intent on supporting B&M stores and developing communities through tournaments and LGS leagues.

Has that changed? If they are starting to pivot towards a GW model of distributing their products in a more direct manner (cutting out distributors/LGS) then that is sad and deserves derision.

But simply using Kickstarter doesn't seem like a faux pas to me, necessarily. Kickstarter is becoming so ubiquitous in the gaming industry that it's hard for me to fault PP for dipping their toe into the crowd sourcing pool when companies like CMON and Mantic do it regularly.



   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Still waiting on stuff from their video game KS years ago.

I don't know why they bother with stuff outside of WM/H, it is always destined to be found selling for peanuts in a MM clearence sale.

The Undercity looked like a bland attempt at cashing in on the recent dungeon crawler craze. This will be no different, I'm sure.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Armpit of NY

I don't care for the use of Kickstarter as pre-order service, one of many reasons I don't do any business with Mantic any longer.

That aside, other than speculation, we do not really know the financial situation of Privateer Press. Yeah, they're still in business, and releasing a lot of product, but are they making money hand over fist, scraping by, or somewhere in between?

It's easy for all the armchair CEO Dakka Know It Alls to criticize GW. As a publicly held company, their major financial data is a matter of public record. Not so for Privateer. Steve Jackson Games is one of the few private game companies I can think of that annually discuss financial and business matters/decisions in their annual report to stakeholders, most recent of which for 2015 was posted a few weeks ago. http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/ Company CEO Phil Reed was quite active in the forums discussing various questions, as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 00:48:23


 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






What Kickstarter?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What Kickstarter?


The one advertised on their website.

Basic research is easy and will help you in everyday life.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

Personally, I hate established companies using it unless they're really going out on a limb with something that would otherwise be a large risk. KS wasn't built for preorders, it was built for little companies/projects to get off the ground.

(Edit: though darktraveller's point is still true that it's hardly a faux pas, despite being what I consider a poor practice)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 01:17:43



My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 the_Armyman wrote:
Let's be honest: KS is a preorder mechanic that allows large game companies to avoid the normal distribution channels, make a ton of money on a product upfront, and not risk a single dime of their own money.

If the end result is companies offering games that they otherwise might not choose to take the risk on, I don't have a problem with that.

 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






The video game thing was okish in my book because it was kinda a start up company and not something they have done before.
But they have done 4 level 7 games, Monsterpocalypse, Undercity and have 2 game systems out.....You can afford to make a board game guys.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

They can?

A new product takes a big injection of cash, something which behaviour suggests PP don't just have lying around, as someone has already pointed out.

It's very likely that all their income is tied up in manufacturing inventory and developing their existing titles and that's exactly why they need the capital from somewhere else.

So, go to the bank, get a loan, become liable for the interest on that loan and have no guarantees that sales for the product will recoup that money, or go through KS which, to an established company like PP, carries almost no risk?

Seems like a no brainer to me.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Pittsburgh, PA, USA

 insaniak wrote:
 the_Armyman wrote:
Let's be honest: KS is a preorder mechanic that allows large game companies to avoid the normal distribution channels, make a ton of money on a product upfront, and not risk a single dime of their own money.

If the end result is companies offering games that they otherwise might not choose to take the risk on, I don't have a problem with that.


Then, they must not have any real confidence in the product. It's not like it's something they've never done before. In fact, given that they have done this before and hasn't been particulalrly successful, it strikes me as even more of a glorified pre-order: make some quick cash on the few people interested, then if it flops, no skin off their teeth.

It's not innovative, it doesn't strenthen an existing product line, and other than the art and rules-writing, it'll probably be all overseas *cough*China*cough* production. I dunno, I just expected better of PP.

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 the_Armyman wrote:
Then, they must not have any real confidence in the product. It's not like it's something they've never done before. In fact, given that they have done this before and hasn't been particulalrly successful, it strikes me as even more of a glorified pre-order: make some quick cash on the few people interested, then if it flops, no skin off their teeth.

The funny thing is that I get the same outcome from a slightly less negative viewpoint... If they've done this before and it hasn't been particularly successful, that's exactly why doing it this time through Kickstarter would be a good idea.

Lets them put out a fun little game for those who are interested in such things, without the risk of over-estimating demand and losing money on it when it doesn't sell as well as hoped.

So in the end, those customers who want such things get a pretty, niche board game that otherwise might have been deemed too risky to sink development budget into.


I'm honestly not seeing the issue here.


Here's another way of looking at it: If they hadn't used Kickstarter, but just listed it on their website for pre-order, would you still have a problem with it?

If not, and if you're just seeing Kickstarter as a glorified pre-order anyway... then what's the difference?

 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

It competes people who are actually trying to do something beyond their means in a network of people with limited funds?


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
It competes people who are actually trying to do something beyond their means in a network of people with limited funds?

It's going to do that anyway.

If you've only got $50 to spend, and two different companies are offering $50 products at the same time, whether or not they're listed on the same website has no impact on how many of those releases you can afford to buy.

 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

It does if you're browsing the one website they're both on and you wouldn't otherwise know about one or both of the products.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







I have to agree with insaniak. "Here's this idea we have for a board game expansion, we're not sure how much money to put into development for this thing that's secondary to our business because we're not sure how much demand there is" is pretty much Kickstarter's niche.

It'd be nice if someone could convince Wyrd to do a Kickstarter project to expand Puppet Wars for the same reason--prove whether or not there's a demand for more of that particular product line.
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






I think Wyrd might be a bit gunshy on kickstarters for a while.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 the_Armyman wrote:
I dunno, I just expected better of PP.


At the end of the day, they're not your friends; they're running a business. In whatever they do, it's best to keep that in mind. The aim of any business is to make money, no matter how much of a "community" they build up around themselves. Running a Kickstarter seems to have quite a few advantages over a traditional business loan, so it's no surprise that established companies are using crowdfunding.

It might not be what Kickstarter was originally intended to be used for, but it must have been pretty obvious how things would go. It's not in Kickstarter's interest to change anything, because they're also wanting to be a successful business.

If it's a game you're interested in, and you think you'll still be interested in six to 12 months after the stated completion date, go for it. If not, wait until it hits the shops, or simply ignore it, as with any other product.
   
Made in gr
Thermo-Optical Spekter





Greece

Give their previous experience with releasing boardgames and their success ratio, its quite logical they go for that rout.

Baring Level 7 Omega protocol that was sadly impacted by having "level 7" in its title (yes, level 7 escape was that bad) all their boardgames were bad and not well received by the boardgamers, Dicetower review was "would be awesome in the 1990s".

It will allow them to create a new boardgame and both judge the actual interest in it and maybe get some much needed feedback in the creation.

Yes, kickstarter is supposed to be one thing it has evolved to another thing but there is no going back, established companies will sue it and sometimes this is for the best, if they do so to test the waters on things they would not normally do and even more importantly if they manage to capitalize on the feedback they receive.
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







The only PP game outside of Warmahordes that was actually good and had a following was Monsterpocalypse, and they axed that one without even an explanation. They could be rebooting it but they'd rather keep pushing gak board games out the door.

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Thermo-Optical Spekter





Greece

I am not sure Monsterpocalypse was doing well for them though.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

It seemed to do ok initially, but wound up on clearance racks awfully quickly.

 
   
Made in gr
Thermo-Optical Spekter





Greece

The collectible nature might have hurt it, they tried to fix it by phasing it out but I am not sure if the dreamworks licence made it too risky to do anything with it.
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



York, PA USA

or go through KS which, to an established company like PP, carries almost no risk?



The backers assume all risk. That is the thing that always seems a bit upside down about KS.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Only if you view it as a pre order system. Regardless of how it's been treated, KS is intended as an investment system, it allows us all to be mini venture capitalists, and in that context it makes sense.

Personally I think there perhaps could be a stronger policy for creators to encourage them away from trips to find themselves when their project is already a year or more late and other BS we've been subjected to, but punishing creators for poor behaviour is near impossible when hurting them financially is realistically the only effective sanction, and doing so would most often damage the chances of successful completion.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Is the "Kickstarter is a pre-order" thing limited to the hobby games sector, or does it appear in other sectors too? The only non-gaming Kickstarter I backed was the Tank Girl project, so I don't know how it goes in the publishing, art, fashion, etc areas.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






My wife ordered some cooking products that were going to be made anyway, so yes, other sectors use it for pre-orders too.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I am not sure Monsterpocalypse was doing well for them though.


At least the first series needed extra print runs, and the IP was worth something to Hollywood, which is way better than these knockoff board games they're doing now.

At this point I'd be happy with just an Excel table with stats for the missing Wave 6 that never was, so we could proxy and have 6 full factions.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
 
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