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Decent jump pack based army = Ravenguard do it better than any of the BA assault marines and formations.
Heavily armoured flying assault transport with strong firepower = Stormfang does it better than the Stormraven.
Killy, choppy, raging dreadnought = Murderfang is released. Debatable if it is better than DC dreadnought - situational.
Killy raging berzerkers = The new Wulfen do it miles better than the Death company.


Just thought I would get people's views on the above. Do you think GW are intentionally looking at units unique to Blood Angels and then just copying the idea behind them and giving them to another army? Ok, I know Wulfen have been around before, but their new incarnation puts them miles ahead of the Death Company. Ravenguard are and should be geared towards stealth, infiltration and also jump packs, but Blood Angels used to be about assault marines, but I now feel like they have lost their identity and focus. The army just feels like a weaker version of all the other marine books. At least Dark Angels and Space Wolves have units unique to them and strong in their own right. What the Blood Angels have is copied and then the copy is made better.

Now just waiting for Wolves or Vanilla marines to get a librarian dreadnought to take away the last shred of uniqueness that Blood Angels had....

Power creep is all it is.

I will however, retract this statement if BA get a release that is balanced (ie not 7.5 edition).

I can't imagine how they would balance BA without adding several new models.

GW has been making each SM codex copy eachother for a long time now.

Before the release of the new SM and DA codexes, BAs basically stole Deathwing from Dark Angels (and still technically do) with their Archangels Detachment, made up almost entirely of terminators and Dreadnoughts.

White Scars, for 2 editions before 7th, basically stole the spotlight from Ravenwing for being "the" SM Biker army. Wolf Guard made it so that you can field any sort of SM army with any weird equipment legally with the CotGW detachment.

Not to mention the stuff the Blood Angels keep stealing from the Sororitas.... (heavy flamer tacs, hand flamer asm, eviscerators, etc...)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not to mention the stuff the Blood Angels keep stealing from the Sororitas.... (heavy flamer tacs, hand flamer asm, eviscerators, etc...)

From Slaphead's profile pic, it looks like they stole their barber too.

Its not stealing from another army. It is simply GW's game designers have a very limited pool of ideas to draw from. The more marine chapters they add with special rules, the less unique the rest get. Not that they really care mind you. GW is more than happy to take everything your army does and give it to the new hotness to sell models.

If another Chapter gets Overcharged Engines, then yes, I will shout from the top of the largest soapbox that they are stealing everything from Blood Angels. They do need a good balancing, and giving a Demi Company both the Red Thirst and Obj Sec is a good start.

But, I want to mention that Archangels are not Deathwing any more than Strike Force Ultra is. They're Codex Compliant 1st Company, absolutely no different than Ultramarines 1st, Raven Guard 1st, Novemarine 1st and so on and so forth.

Jink used to be a Dark Angels rule, as were Assault Cannons on Land Speeders, and bike-based Marine armies

Rending, Eternal Warrior, and Instant Death used to be Eldar rules (the Rending rule name was invented for Tyranids, but Eldar had the mechanics an entire edition earlier).

Things get stolen from one army and added to another. Live with it.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
If another Chapter gets Overcharged Engines, then yes, I will shout from the top of the largest soapbox that they are stealing everything from Blood Angels. They do need a good balancing, and giving a Demi Company both the Red Thirst and Obj Sec is a good start.

But, I want to mention that Archangels are not Deathwing any more than Strike Force Ultra is. They're Codex Compliant 1st Company, absolutely no different than Ultramarines 1st, Raven Guard 1st, Novemarine 1st and so on and so forth.

That's due to erosion of the fluff. Previously Dark Angels were the only ones who even had enough Terminator Armor to equip their entire first company; other first companies had Terminators but neither enough to deploy the entire company in them nor would commit them all to an offensive.

Also I meant they stole it from the Dark Angels in that now the Dark Angels' Deathwing Formations and Detachments can't come in on the first turn, so fielding a pure deathwing force is now either ridiculously hard (with Dreadpods) or outright impossible.

In fact, Strikeforce Ultra and 1st Company Taskforce further stole the wind from the DAs, since the former can basically perform the old version of Deathwing Assault while the latter has the Fear and Fearlessness that use to be inherent in Deathwing.

Now you know how the Imperial Guard have been feeling since the early 2000's as our defining traits where handed out to other armies.
Infantry hordes? Tyranids and Orcs.
Gunline? Tau.
And now, with the most recent Space Marine codex said Mary Sue smurfs now do tanks AND gunline better than us.

You have to appreciate the game devs are not that important for GW they make the models first then paint them and only after that do they tell the rules dept to write some fluff and rules.

They can't make rules for units with no models anymore since chapter house trial went against GW.

So all they can do is tweek rules for existing units must be very frustrating.

The Competitiveness of BA is still real to me Dammit!

 Slaphead wrote:
Decent jump pack based army = Ravenguard do it better than any of the BA assault marines and formations.
Heavily armoured flying assault transport with strong firepower = Stormfang does it better than the Stormraven.
Killy, choppy, raging dreadnought = Murderfang is released. Debatable if it is better than DC dreadnought - situational.
Killy raging berzerkers = The new Wulfen do it miles better than the Death company.


Just thought I would get people's views on the above. Do you think GW are intentionally looking at units unique to Blood Angels and then just copying the idea behind them and giving them to another army? Ok, I know Wulfen have been around before, but their new incarnation puts them miles ahead of the Death Company. Ravenguard are and should be geared towards stealth, infiltration and also jump packs, but Blood Angels used to be about assault marines, but I now feel like they have lost their identity and focus. The army just feels like a weaker version of all the other marine books. At least Dark Angels and Space Wolves have units unique to them and strong in their own right. What the Blood Angels have is copied and then the copy is made better.

Now just waiting for Wolves or Vanilla marines to get a librarian dreadnought to take away the last shred of uniqueness that Blood Angels had....

Blood Angels simply haven't gotten the 7.5 treatment yet.

If you want to know what real thieving looks like, try being a Chaos player...
- Oblits & Mutilators? Loyalists get Centurians which are only 1000x better in every respect.

- Dark Blades were a 'one per army', +2S power weapon that could end up hurting the guy holding it. We lost it, but suddenly Loyalists discovered entire armouries full of Relic Blades.

- Close combat Dreadnoughts were exclusively a Chaos thing back in the day, with BA's having the slightly worse Furioso. Now Ironclads are a close combat Helbrute x100. (better av, an actual delivery system, better anti-vehicle abilities, more attacks, no going bat gak crazy and double shooting your Combi-bolters!)

- Wulfen = Possessed x1,000,000 in every single way.

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.


Pretty much the only unique toys we still have are the Dinobots and the Helturkey. Though give it time, and I'm sure GW will shoehorn in a similar vehicle/MC to some Marine Chapter that massively 1-up's those too!

 Slaphead wrote:

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.

Eh... Didn't BA have this first with the Angel's Fury formation?

(is anyone else amused that this was brought full circle?)

 Lucumon wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.

Eh... Didn't BA have this first with the Angel's Fury formation?

(is anyone else amused that this was brought full circle?)

He's talking about 3.5 edition or earlier, where you could have AP2 Bloodletters in Power Armor pop out of deepstrike and right into your face.

Or Daemonettes with 3 attacks each and rended on a TO HIT roll of a 6.

Chaos have fallen a looong way

 Lucumon wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.

Eh... Didn't BA have this first with the Angel's Fury formation?

(is anyone else amused that this was brought full circle?)

Back in the 3.5 codex, Chaos was THE army that turned Deep Striking tactics into an entire play style.

Charging from DS used to be a Chaos exclusive, with Daemons being the only units who could do it.

Not to mention the close combat Daemons use to be terrifying.

Bloodletters had S5 and Space Marine statlines. Freaking S5. They could carve open tanks!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Not to mention the close combat Daemons use to be terrifying.

Bloodletters had S5 and Space Marine statlines. Freaking S5. They could carve open tanks!

To be fair, they're still S5 on the charge, and nowadays cost about half the points they used to back in the day...

It is however hilarious to realise that Pink Horrors can flip tanks better than Bloodletters, while the embodiment of pure rage & murder is a feeble S6 & yet the Lord of Change's kung-fu stick can golf swing Marines at S8!

This is why I play the way I do. 4th edition rules with any 5th edition or lower codex you choose to use.

Back when armies actually had a unique identity.

 Jayden63 wrote:
This is why I play the way I do. 4th edition rules with any 5th edition or lower codex you choose to use.

Back when armies actually had a unique identity.

Your thoughts and ideas interest me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter good sir

Akiasura wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
This is why I play the way I do. 4th edition rules with any 5th edition or lower codex you choose to use.

Back when armies actually had a unique identity.

Your thoughts and ideas interest me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter good sir

If serious send me a PM and I'll talk about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:
Decent jump pack based army = Ravenguard do it better than any of the BA assault marines and formations.
Heavily armoured flying assault transport with strong firepower = Stormfang does it better than the Stormraven.
Killy, choppy, raging dreadnought = Murderfang is released. Debatable if it is better than DC dreadnought - situational.
Killy raging berzerkers = The new Wulfen do it miles better than the Death company.


Just thought I would get people's views on the above. Do you think GW are intentionally looking at units unique to Blood Angels and then just copying the idea behind them and giving them to another army? Ok, I know Wulfen have been around before, but their new incarnation puts them miles ahead of the Death Company. Ravenguard are and should be geared towards stealth, infiltration and also jump packs, but Blood Angels used to be about assault marines, but I now feel like they have lost their identity and focus. The army just feels like a weaker version of all the other marine books. At least Dark Angels and Space Wolves have units unique to them and strong in their own right. What the Blood Angels have is copied and then the copy is made better.

Now just waiting for Wolves or Vanilla marines to get a librarian dreadnought to take away the last shred of uniqueness that Blood Angels had....

Blood Angels simply haven't gotten the 7.5 treatment yet.

If you want to know what real thieving looks like, try being a Chaos player...
- Oblits & Mutilators? Loyalists get Centurians which are only 1000x better in every respect.

- Dark Blades were a 'one per army', +2S power weapon that could end up hurting the guy holding it. We lost it, but suddenly Loyalists discovered entire armouries full of Relic Blades.

- Close combat Dreadnoughts were exclusively a Chaos thing back in the day, with BA's having the slightly worse Furioso. Now Ironclads are a close combat Helbrute x100. (better av, an actual delivery system, better anti-vehicle abilities, more attacks, no going bat gak crazy and double shooting your Combi-bolters!)

- Wulfen = Possessed x1,000,000 in every single way.

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.


Pretty much the only unique toys we still have are the Dinobots and the Helturkey. Though give it time, and I'm sure GW will shoehorn in a similar vehicle/MC to some Marine Chapter that massively 1-up's those too!

So much truth to this. Everything cool Chaos ever had got nerfed to hell the next edition codex and it somehow showed up in a better form in the next SM release. Its really a disgusting cycle and is the main reason Chaos is a shell of its former self and has become nothing more than last editions spiky marines.

I also do the whole "4th edition" thing, but with only codexes released before 5th edition (going 5th means cheese like GKs and the old Blood Angels...ha)

We should start a club :U

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I also do the whole "4th edition" thing, but with only codexes released before 5th edition (going 5th means cheese like GKs and the old Blood Angels...ha)

We should start a club :U

To be fair, all codexs get hit with a heavy dose of the red correction pen and why not.... Make the game you want to play, not the game GW forced on us.

Just some examples are Eldar Holofields now just give a 5+ inv save instead of their rules. Grey Hunters have to pay for their second specialist weapon. Psyammo is a 15 point upgrade instead of 5. (its amazing how quickly some upgrades start to add up when they cost appropriately)

Yes its a lot of house rules, but actually not as many as you need to just play a basic game as it currently sits.

Well if they AoS 40k alot of people will play older editions or come up with a fan made 8th edition.

hobojebus wrote:
Well if they AoS 40k alot of people will play older editions or come up with a fan made 8th edition.

And still buy he GW models. GW wins no matter what.

Yes, everyone steals from your faction. Hunt them down. Hunt them down to a man!

Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.

 Slaphead wrote:
Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.

I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.

I don't know about that. Aren't 3 BA ASM about as durable as a Mutilator, for about the same points?

Min/maxing, sure, they aren't top dog. But there are plenty of things BA can do that any given faction can't.

But yes, every faction steals from every other faction.

CWE are fast. Their Phoenix Lords are the pinnicle of skill. Jain Zar is a beyond-legendary swordsman. An Assasin who focuses on sniper rifles has better sword skill. Baharoth is the fastest of the *phoenix lords*. Cypher, a human, is faster.

SM have elite, durable troops. Necron Warriors have the same shooting skill and durability.

Things just get passed around a lot.