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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

So, after sorting through my Bolt Action miniatures, I came to the realization that I actually own enough soldaten to make up a company (~100 soldiers). As a man who enjoys buying stuff he'll never use I am curious as to what exactly would complete the company. Like, does ever platoon commander get his own hanomag? How many medium mortars to a company?

I tried googling it but I never got a straight answer. I was hoping some historically minded folks could point me in the right directicon

To clarify, I am looking for the ideal make up on the Western front rather than the reality. I realize that German units at this point in the war were rarely at full strength. Especially after the Allies came and kicked their booties right across the Rhine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/09 01:13:49


Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Most of the heavy equipments was quite rare and most German infantry units didnt have much. However there was the potential for a unit to have pretty much anything including captured equipment.

In the late war by and large the more prestigious the unit the better equipped, senior units would often asset strip less prestigious units of materiel. Got an Opel Blitz to move your stuff about, an SS Panzergrenardier commander of the same rank will taike one look at it and requisition it if he sees fit, and takes your fuel, mortars and Panzerfausts too.

On the other hand they might be too busy to do so, ignore your unit or in too much of a hurry.

So decide how important your unit is and how good it is at holding onto stuff and that will give you an idea of what you could have.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Kildare, Ireland

Well no half tracks in an infantry company... that be Panzergrenadiers.

Then it depends when you want to look at as they changed over time. Though late war rifle companies remained fairly similar.

So Grenadier Battalion rifle company around mid44, using the Schutzenkompanie KstN table 131 from December 43 gives...


Company HQ (1 Officer, 11 men)

Company Train (13 men)

Machine Gun Section (18 men)

Three Rifle Platoons, each comprised of;

Platoon HQ (1 Officer or NCO, 5 men)

Three Rifle Squads, each comprised of 9 men


This site should help you...

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/german_army.htm

 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Big P wrote:
Well no half tracks in an infantry company... that be Panzergrenadiers.

Then it depends when you want to look at as they changed over time. Though late war rifle companies remained fairly similar.

So Grenadier Battalion rifle company around mid44, using the Schutzenkompanie KstN table 131 from December 43 gives...


Company HQ (1 Officer, 11 men)

Company Train (13 men)

Machine Gun Section (18 men)

Three Rifle Platoons, each comprised of;

Platoon HQ (1 Officer or NCO, 5 men)

Three Rifle Squads, each comprised of 9 men


This site should help you...

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/german_army.htm


Ah, thank you! That website actually is very helpful.

I did not know that regular infantry units weren't given half-tracks. It seems like I got most of the company. Just need to add support elements.

Also, anyone got any good links to model companies that sell German support guys in 28mm?



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/09 04:14:14


Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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The new Sick Man of Europe

 TheCustomLime wrote:


Also, anyone got any good links to model companies that sell German support guys in 28mm?


You mean MMG and Mortar teams? Both Warlord and Artizan Design do some nice looking sets.

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Southern California, USA

 sing your life wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:


Also, anyone got any good links to model companies that sell German support guys in 28mm?


You mean MMG and Mortar teams? Both Warlord and Artizan Design do some nice looking sets.


I mean like medics and logistics personnel. I mean, I could just model some Germans to be unarmed and wearing M43 Feldmutzen/sidecaps but where is the fun in that?

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
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 TheCustomLime wrote:

I did not know that regular infantry units weren't given half-tracks.


There were never enough half-tracks to go around. Even the Panzergrenadiers had to make do with having only a proportion of their troops mounted in SPWs. The rest rode in trucks - and they were in short supply as well.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Made in us
Major





Central,ILL. USA

Warlrod has some good models that you could use look thru the SS section also.

Please visit my Blog http://colkrazykennyswargamingblog.blogspot.com/
I play SS in flames of war ,Becuase they are KEWL... 
   
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The new Sick Man of Europe

 Tailgunner wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:

I did not know that regular infantry units weren't given half-tracks.


There were never enough half-tracks to go around. Even the Panzergrenadiers had to make do with having only a proportion of their troops mounted in SPWs. The rest rode in trucks - and they were in short supply as well.



IIRC even Panzertracks had almost 9 trucks for every 1/2 track by 1945. The wargaming community hard on for them is massively inaccurate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 15:29:00


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Southern California, USA

To be fair, the Hanomag is a cool looking transport.

As a follow up question, what did company signalmen carry? Radios and the like? I want to get these details right.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
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Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

 TheCustomLime wrote:
To be fair, the Hanomag is a cool looking transport.

As a follow up question, what did company signalmen carry? Radios and the like? I want to get these details right.


A company level Signals Soldier would be at the field HQ with the switchboard relaying all of the field telephone traffic, there is a nice model in the Ostfront Command blister of a soldier carrying the backpack radio (I cannot recall the model of radio, but it's supposed to be a 1943 or later kit IMO). I am eager to see how accurate your set up is, I have a Grossdeutchland styled list that is merely representative of most of the elements that Division had. With the game being less than company strength, it's not surprising that accuracy suffers.

PS - Hanomags are awesome, I use mine extensively and it does yeoman's work every game.


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1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

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"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

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Made in us
Major





Central,ILL. USA

Sounds crazy but i have been using a modified version of the Flames of war Company diagrams.i just replace the 3 man base to 5 singles instead.

Please visit my Blog http://colkrazykennyswargamingblog.blogspot.com/
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Brum

 Stormrider wrote:

PS - Hanomags are awesome, I use mine extensively and it does yeoman's work every game.


Does the Germany book allow an empty Hannomag to fire its MG? It did have a dedicated crew after all...

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Diligently behind a rifle...

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
 Stormrider wrote:

PS - Hanomags are awesome, I use mine extensively and it does yeoman's work every game.


Does the Germany book allow an empty Hannomag to fire its MG? It did have a dedicated crew after all...


Not per the rulebook, the cheeky way to keep it going is to take a medic or other singular model (Forward Air/Artillery Observer) and keep them in the vehicle after they've accomplished their goal.

If you follow some of the Community based rulesets (Bolt Action Alliance for one), the MMG can be fired by the crew per their rules. Clearly the designers of the game are trying to be as minimal as possible with regards to individual flavor regarding separate nations' vehicles and crew situations. Part of that makes sense from a utilitarian mindset regarding the inequities inherent in the different nations during WWII, but for a rules set, it does lead to a lot of head scratching.

Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

Res Ipsa Loquitor 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

 Stormrider wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
To be fair, the Hanomag is a cool looking transport.

As a follow up question, what did company signalmen carry? Radios and the like? I want to get these details right.


A company level Signals Soldier would be at the field HQ with the switchboard relaying all of the field telephone traffic, there is a nice model in the Ostfront Command blister of a soldier carrying the backpack radio (I cannot recall the model of radio, but it's supposed to be a 1943 or later kit IMO). I am eager to see how accurate your set up is, I have a Grossdeutchland styled list that is merely representative of most of the elements that Division had. With the game being less than company strength, it's not surprising that accuracy suffers.

PS - Hanomags are awesome, I use mine extensively and it does yeoman's work every game.



As in how I do the modelling or the actual composition of the company? Typically, my squads are all 9 man with a MG, 3x StG44s and a MP40. Most of them carry a self loading rifle (G43) as prescribed in the regulations. For the modelling side I am probably going to do the supply guys as either converted unarmed men or guys with rifles "At rest" on a diorama with a bunch of crates. It should do the job alright.

From my understanding of the Wehrmacht at that particular time such a company would be one of the most lavishly equipped units in all of the Heer.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/07 00:55:01


Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Stormrider wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
To be fair, the Hanomag is a cool looking transport.

As a follow up question, what did company signalmen carry? Radios and the like? I want to get these details right.


A company level Signals Soldier would be at the field HQ with the switchboard relaying all of the field telephone traffic, there is a nice model in the Ostfront Command blister of a soldier carrying the backpack radio (I cannot recall the model of radio, but it's supposed to be a 1943 or later kit IMO). I am eager to see how accurate your set up is, I have a Grossdeutchland styled list that is merely representative of most of the elements that Division had. With the game being less than company strength, it's not surprising that accuracy suffers.

PS - Hanomags are awesome, I use mine extensively and it does yeoman's work every game.



As in how I do the modelling or the actual composition of the company? Typically, my squads are all 9 man with a MG, 3x StG44s and a MP40. Most of them carry a self loading rifle (G43) as prescribed in the regulations. For the modelling side I am probably going to do the supply guys as either converted unarmed men or guys with rifles "At rest" on a diorama with a bunch of crates. It should do the job alright.

From my understanding of the Wehrmacht at that particular time such a company would be one of the most lavishly equipped units in all of the Heer.


You aren't joking, most guys would be lucky to have a G43, let alone an MP44. I look forward to some pics!

Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

Res Ipsa Loquitor 
   
Made in us
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Orlando

Depending on where they were fighting they would also use captured light weapons as well so it wouldn't be out of place to have veteran troops using submachine guns of other countries. The Battle of Brest was an instance that really exemplified the whole grab the other guys stuff kind of thing since they snuck out of the perimeter at night and pretty much snagged anything the allies didn't tie down and snuck back with it. I have heard similar things on the Eastern front and have seen pics of heer using Russian smgs.

Infantrymen do not die, they go to heaven and regroup. 
   
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Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

Col. Dash wrote:
Depending on where they were fighting they would also use captured light weapons as well so it wouldn't be out of place to have veteran troops using submachine guns of other countries. The Battle of Brest was an instance that really exemplified the whole grab the other guys stuff kind of thing since they snuck out of the perimeter at night and pretty much snagged anything the allies didn't tie down and snuck back with it. I have heard similar things on the Eastern front and have seen pics of heer using Russian smgs.


It was quite common for the more veteran Soldiers to grab PPSh's and PPD's, mainly due to having so much ammo to scrounge and their reliability in terrible conditions. They also converted the PPSh to accept MP40 mags and it was a moderate success in limited amounts. The ROA also had loads of left over Soviet war gear after being captured by the Germans in the onset of Barbarossa.

The idea of a monolithic German military in regards to gear and weaponry has been perpetuated by media in many forms and it's far from accurate.

Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

Res Ipsa Loquitor 
   
Made in us
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






 TheCustomLime wrote:
I mean like medics and logistics personnel.
If you're just looking for models to ID as medics on the battlefield, I used ammo can runners from my Hasegawa kits and painted the cans to look like medic's kit. Since they're models from the infanty squad kits, they are in the same infantry uniforms.This was in 20mm.


Ghidorah

   
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Melbourne .au

 sing your life wrote:

IIRC even Panzertracks had almost 9 trucks for every 1/2 track by 1945. The wargaming community hard on for them is massively inaccurate.


We need more cheap & accurate (plastic?) truck kits. If I'm paying 20 quid for a vehicle, it's not going to be a bloody truck.

   
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preston

 Azazelx wrote:
 sing your life wrote:

IIRC even Panzertracks had almost 9 trucks for every 1/2 track by 1945. The wargaming community hard on for them is massively inaccurate.


We need more cheap & accurate (plastic?) truck kits. If I'm paying 20 quid for a vehicle, it's not going to be a bloody truck.


Agreed, although I dont mind having a few in my army as they are cheaper points-wise than halftracks. Unfortunately the kits themselves just turn me off completely as they cost a wee bit too much for what is essentially an unarmed softskin.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Brum

What would the average veteran Pz Gren squad be carrying in terms of small arms in mid-late '44?

At the moment I am thinking of giving 1 man per squad a Stg44, 2 MG42s or 34s, 2-3 G43s and the rest K98s. I will sprinkle in some SMGs as well. Does that sound reasonable?

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Kildare, Ireland

Average?

Rifles and two MGs.


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






 Azazelx wrote:

We need more cheap & accurate (plastic?) truck kits. If I'm paying 20 quid for a vehicle, it's not going to be a bloody truck.


Rubicon's plastic Opel Blitz is a very kit, and easy to assemble. PSC sells them sets of 3 for £48.60 (although they seem to be out of stock at the moment).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/18 12:06:58


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett RIP 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel





Brum

Big P wrote:

Rifles and two MGs.


Not forgetting the NCO's MP40. I mean beyond issued strength, just how common were additional SMGs, G43s, STG44s and potentially looted weapons in, for example, late '44?

Would 2-3 of these relatively uncommon weapons be excessive per squad? For example 1 PPSH, 1 MP40 and 1 G43 plus the 2 MGs and the MP40.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/18 19:42:20


My PLog

Curently: DZC

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Kildare, Ireland

NCOs did not always carry Machine Pistols, its not until after 1942 that the allocation of one to the squad leaders is noted on the KStN tables, though the practice of them carrying them was conduct from the start of the war. It was always down to availability with regards SMG issue. Hence the widespread use of PPSH especially at Stalingrad.

StG44s would be issued to the Sturm Platoon in Panzergrenadier companys. Volksgrenadier companies would have two platoons armed entirely with 'machinepistole' but this would not neccesarily mean the StG44.

In terms of 'averages' the G43 and StG44 were very rare weapons on the battlefield, with so few being manufactured. Although 425k StG44 and 402k G43 were manufactured, they had high numbers lost in action so remain relatively rare, compare it to the 14 million or so K98 built...

The 1944 Infantry KTsN table indicated 19 G43 to be issued per Rifle Company (though this was never achieved in every company due to the small numbers of the weapon) and ten would be fitted with scopes. The issue of these, if ever available, seems to have been left to the discretion of the company commander given the scarcity of the weapon. An issue of one or two per squad could thus be a possibility if the company was lucky enough to get them.

The KTsN tables tried to limit the number of differing weapons in a rifle company for the simple reason of supplying ammunition. Captured weapons in use are something that can never be quantified to an 'average'.

It really was very variable. While generally StG44 were issued to entire platoons, some troops did acquire them, but its not an 'average' rifle section.

An 'average' rifle squad would still be rifles and MGs with perhaps an Machine Pistol for the squad leader and perhaps the junior squad leader.

That said, if you have an urge to include them, go for it. I have seen photos of what looks like an entire section of Fallschirmjager, where all but one is carrying a scoped G43. Most likely the battalionl grouping of snipers/marksmen, but the potential is there for odd squad make ups.

But an 'average' weapon allocation for German infantry in WW2 will always be MG34/42 and bolt action rifles.

But as I say, do what you like and have a bit of fun with it. While 90% of all my figures carry K98s, I still have those with StG44, G43s, SMGs and the like.


 Strombones wrote:
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Brum

Well it turns out that the Warlord Grenadier box contains as many StG44s as it does K98's so it looks like I will be forced to make mine more well equipped than I intended.

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Southern California, USA

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Well it turns out that the Warlord Grenadier box contains as many StG44s as it does K98's so it looks like I will be forced to make mine more well equipped than I intended.


You could get the blitzkrieg germans and mix the two boxes toegther for more K98k's. Just file off the gas cape pouch and you're golden.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in gb
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Brum

 TheCustomLime wrote:

You could get the blitzkrieg germans and mix the two boxes toegther for more K98k's. Just file off the gas cape pouch and you're golden.


I'm making Gepanzert Panzers Grens so 3 squads (which came with the Panzer Gren box set) is all I can afford in 1500 points

I will put out a call to see if anyone at my club has some spare K98s and MG34s though.

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