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Following the cheating thread, wondering what defences people have adopted. Obviously you can call someone on it, but its hard to prove intent over a 'mistake' and some people bending the rules are very good at trying to make you feel unreasonable for calling them..

So what ways do you mess with their rules bending to your advantage? Obviously outright cheating is harder to take advantage from but some of the creative interpretations can be twisted.

As noted on the other thread one I've seen is deliberately measuring the deployment area incorrectly, typically from the back of the board assuming the board width and not from the centreline meaning they start slightly closer than they should*.

My defence is typically to deploy as if my deployment is about 2" smaller than it should be, and mark it out accordingly, nothing says I have to use the full area (well unless a scenario says otherwise), so someone expecting to be say 22"-23" away (when they should be 24") suddenly finds they are actually at 24" - 25" and the 'clever' deployment puts them just outside strike range and not just inside it.


* typically when they 'discover' this care is taken for it to be the second turn when a lot has moved so its 'too difficult' to roll anything back, not too hard to spot people doing this.

I start to mimick them. If they inaccurately measure things I'll do the same. And if they get funky with cocked dice etc, I'll do the same. If they call me on it, I'll be calling them and then they'll be careful not to for the rest of the game.

It is fairly easy.
Notice the irregularity, calmly point it out.
They get all angry about it, odds are pretty good it was a cheat.
If they adjust with an "I'm sorry" or "forgot" or something to that effect: no harm no foul.
If you continue to see further shenanigans: it is most likely a lifestyle and just do not play them again.
If it is over the top in quantity and they are agressive: just pack it up then and there and say "I guess you do not want to play a real game.".
If there are still doubts, you may have to continue to be picky until you figure out if they just are all over the place, new or it is intentional.

I find that people who like to cheat in general lean on the "loud and authoritative voice" to carry them through.
Rule books with tabs attached in them make those guys nervous...

Throw a spanner at them.

 Deadshot wrote:
I start to mimick them. If they inaccurately measure things I'll do the same. And if they get funky with cocked dice etc, I'll do the same. If they call me on it, I'll be calling them and then they'll be careful not to for the rest of the game.

I've had so many arguments over cocked dice these past years, it's enough to put you off wargaming!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
Following the cheating thread, wondering what defences people have adopted. Obviously you can call someone on it, but its hard to prove intent over a 'mistake' and some people bending the rules are very good at trying to make you feel unreasonable for calling them..

So what ways do you mess with their rules bending to your advantage? Obviously outright cheating is harder to take advantage from but some of the creative interpretations can be twisted.

As noted on the other thread one I've seen is deliberately measuring the deployment area incorrectly, typically from the back of the board assuming the board width and not from the centreline meaning they start slightly closer than they should*.

My defence is typically to deploy as if my deployment is about 2" smaller than it should be, and mark it out accordingly, nothing says I have to use the full area (well unless a scenario says otherwise), so someone expecting to be say 22"-23" away (when they should be 24") suddenly finds they are actually at 24" - 25" and the 'clever' deployment puts them just outside strike range and not just inside it.


* typically when they 'discover' this care is taken for it to be the second turn when a lot has moved so its 'too difficult' to roll anything back, not too hard to spot people doing this.

I have known people to pack up and walk away when faced with blatant cheating or people stretching the rules to the extremes.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Throw a spanner at them.

Don't think this hasn't been discussed, along with roping to a car and dragging round the carpark.

Mimicking can be a very effective way to make it very plain you see exactly what they are doing, guessing it works best against the ones who like to think they get away with it because no one notices more than because no one cares.

Have only ever abandoned a single game, and that wasn't due to cheating, but the rules sapping my will to live, sold the army shortly after and never went back.

Tied to prefer to see someone cheating then beat them regardless, I don't normally play all that hardcore, but on occasions its whats needed. I have pointed out deployment measuring from the centre to several players who still insist on measuring from the back, and insist the table is 48" across even when a measure is laid over it showing otherwise, have even been called petty, and accused of not playing in the spirt of the game when I made a point of setting my deployment line 25" back from wherever he set his. This amused me.

I like the idea of a well thumbed rulebook with tabs for quick reference placed somewhere it can be seen.

Do enjoy someone attempting to intimidate or browbeat with volume, I tend to start talking very deadpan and quiet, I've practiced with commercial lawyers, and indeed cats and small children.

Also note there are very much a few players who when pointed out what they are doing, generally, tend to be offended very specifically, indeed they seem to be practically psychic in known what I'm suggesting before I;ve actually said it.

Reminded of a sentence in the Star Wars RPG GM guide, noting any "jedi" trying to defend why an action isn't that of the dark side... it almost certainly is and the player knows it.

Shank them. Shank them good.

Seriously though, it's never really come up, I'm honestly a forgetful so and so though, so it's far more likely that an opponent will be calling ME on a mistake. Not deliberate mistakes mind you, but I do worry sometimes that people will think that.

I've gotten snarky; "So, is it ALL of your marines get an extra three inches in their movement phase or is it just the guys you like?"

To gakky; "Look dude, six inches. Everyone gets that. *pulls out a tape measure and pulls out six inches* You move one more model more than that I'm done."

To meh; "Ah, right, I heard about you." *packs up stuff and walks off to find another game*

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm aware not everyone knows the rules and there are legitimate instances where messing up due to ignorance is expected. The above responses have only been aimed at repeat offenders whose goal is to cheat.

My perception was a little different. I ran a GW store. If someone was caught cheating, I'd simply pull them aside and privately tell them that if it ever happens again, they won't be welcome to game on my tables. Most people shaped up. A couple were temporarily banned, but were allowed to "re-earn favor" by "going on a hobby quest"... which usually involved helping me build terrain or cleaning the bathrooms or some other generally tedious task. Single man stores were tough. You had to rope people into doing parts of your job for you. Cheaters were perfect for that.

Genuine errors, not an issue. Bending the rules deliberately, I tell them we play the game properly or not at all. If it happens again, I congratulate them on their victory and pack up my things.

 JamesY wrote:
Genuine errors, not an issue. Bending the rules deliberately, I tell them we play the game properly or not at all. If it happens again, I congratulate them on their victory and pack up my things.

Pretty much this.

Life's too short to fight people over a game.

I'm not the passive aggressive type. So if the opposing player is doing something wrong I can recognize, it comes up. If I'm playing a new player (to me), I make clear the rules of engagement, cover, cocked dice(four corners flat on same surface period), FOCs, LoWs, sometimes even a predetermined length and game type. If they/I need rules clarification or think I'm/they doing something, bring it up.

After playing 6 editions of the game, I take no rule for granted. I've played 5th, 6th, and 7th since the releases and I still learn rules about every time I play. Love it.

If the player is just WAAC. Don't play him/her again.

 Talizvar wrote:
It is fairly easy.
Notice the irregularity, calmly point it out.
They get all angry about it, odds are pretty good it was a cheat.
If they adjust with an "I'm sorry" or "forgot" or something to that effect: no harm no foul.
If you continue to see further shenanigans: it is most likely a lifestyle and just do not play them again.
If it is over the top in quantity and they are agressive: just pack it up then and there and say "I guess you do not want to play a real game.".
If there are still doubts, you may have to continue to be picky until you figure out if they just are all over the place, new or it is intentional.

I find that people who like to cheat in general lean on the "loud and authoritative voice" to carry them through.
Rule books with tabs attached in them make those guys nervous...

Given how poor my memory is--especially under pressure--and how easily I can get confused or mentally turned-around--again, especially under pressure--I prefer the people who can just calmly point it out. Generally if it happens again, just a minor prompt will help me remember. I have had instances of people trying to re-teach me entire rules I temporarily forgot or misremembered, when all I needed was just a slight elbow in the ribs. Most of the time, calling me out on mistakes is replied to by me taking a second out to mentally re-arrange everything, and an "oh yeah, sorry about that".

That said, my rather conflict-averse nature, and far-more-often-than-not willingness to take a correction at face value, has led to other people turning the tables and convincing me I made non-existent mistakes. I'd rather not be 'that guy' when it comes to wanting citations for every little criticism, so generally if you correct me on something, I'll go with it if I don't 100% know better.

I just don't play with them again. exept with my older brother.

 Talizvar wrote:
It is fairly easy.
Notice the irregularity, calmly point it out.
They get all angry about it, odds are pretty good it was a cheat.
If they adjust with an "I'm sorry" or "forgot" or something to that effect: no harm no foul.
If you continue to see further shenanigans: it is most likely a lifestyle and just do not play them again.
If it is over the top in quantity and they are agressive: just pack it up then and there and say "I guess you do not want to play a real game.".
If there are still doubts, you may have to continue to be picky until you figure out if they just are all over the place, new or it is intentional.

I find that people who like to cheat in general lean on the "loud and authoritative voice" to carry them through.
Rule books with tabs attached in them make those guys nervous...

Talizar has it right.

I started tabbing my rulebooks (40k and RPG) recently. I can't believe how much easier it is now to jump straight to "problem areas" of certain games and make sure we're doing something right.

I haven't run into a "cheater guy" since an AdeptiCon 3 years ago, but knowing me, calling someone out on something and insisting they show me the entry in their book or rulebook is the way I handle cheaters or people "forgetting" a rule.

When you catch somebody actively cheating a sealed can of soda thrown directly at their dome solves a lot of problems. Then claim "you forgot" how to open a can and you'll promise to do better next time.


I call people out and be like dude what's up with you doing x, if they repeat such behavior or are really brazen about cheating I have no problems packing up and walking away in the middle of the game as it's not like you're playing a real game with a cheat anyways.

I find these moments such a fine line of decision making for me.

Nothing is sweeter than beating someone who cheats (not a single one, habitual), so I try to see the game to the end if it is not too painful... it can be an epic tantrum. (Hard to dismiss hard proof of a loss).
Mind-you, you still have to point out the cheats or they feel minor victories for every one they "get past you" (They live for "the dummy missed it!" moments).
It is an interesting moment when you achieve the "You know, that I know, you are cheating." (They live for the "I am smarter than this fool" moments).
Once any of the above three points are done you never get asked by that person to play again anyway so it is win-win.
I guess that is my method to "throw a spanner in the works".

Pushy and aggressive I tend to end it pretty quickly because they are "harshing my mellow" (love that phrase) where gaming it supposed to be fun... I do not want my viewpoint to go negative for the sake of my other opponents.

Scatterbrained is incredibly easy to spot and is actually not frustrating at all: they mess up rules that go against themselves as much as for me.
Helping educate just makes me better... what is that phrase? "You teach best what you most need to learn."

I REALLY like being competitive but if it is not a close game, it is a missed opportunity.

A game is where we have a competition with agreed upon rules.
When someone decides to play differently, secretively, it is just embarking on an ego trip at your opponent's expense.

Here is the single most contested topic on cheating I ever see:
"It is alright to go 5 points over on your army list right?"
By rules as written: not a single point over, ever, never, liar, liar, pants on fire.
Take a hit for the team and go that 3 points below the limit, you can do it... you may get the shakes but you know it is the right thing to do.

Scatterbrained is incredibly easy to spot and is actually not frustrating at all: they mess up rules that go against themselves as much as for me.

I think that's what helps not paint me as a cheat--the fact that for every rule I misremember that goes against you, I'm misremembering at least one that goes against me. Fairly cost me a game in my last FoW tourney did that.

 Talizvar wrote:

Here is the single most contested topic on cheating I ever see:
"It is alright to go 5 points over on your army list right?"
By rules as written: not a single point over, ever, never, liar, liar, pants on fire.
Take a hit for the team and go that 3 points below the limit, you can do it... you may get the shakes but you know it is the right thing to do.

Gosh, that one drives me nuts. It is so very petty, and yet so easy to not do it: simply drop a guy. Only in rare circumstances will you not have something to drop. Had someone do it when they were wanting to bring a 40-strong block of Bloodletters to a game of WFB 8th. I really don't feel sympathy for the idea that we should let you have a couple extra points, just because you don't want to ruin the symmetry of your unit!

@Talizvar, love it, will remember half of this while trying to remember all of it.

Agree on spotting the scatterbrained or just plain inexperienced through watching just what they forget, if its like a bank and the errors are never against them its got to be a large red flag like thing.

Also agree on the 'just a few points over', actually for casual games I don't really care, except when the points someone is over is more than the cost of a single model, but for something thats meant to be a bit more serious not a chance.

Ditto for 'creative accounting'

Thanks all.
With my friends I am known as the "freak magnet" (reflects badly on them).

If someone recently was released from jail, went off their medication or on the hairy edge of a mental break: I find them or they find me (at bars, parties or the local FLGS).

I have had some truly surreal moments where some opponents of mine were trying to rewrite our reality or my favorite "you are not reading the words correctly" and I make the mistake of saying "You want me to enunciate differently??"

My favorite quote from a player I knew to have schizophrenia (perfectly nice guy and fine on meds...) let it slip he was distracted because he was "trying to ignore the flaming skulls that were trying to get his attention.".

SO this is why I go a little further with those odd moments because you never know what challenges the other guy is going through.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
I just don't play with them again. exept with my older brother.

This.

 Talizvar wrote:
Here is the single most contested topic on cheating I ever see:
"It is alright to go 5 points over on your army list right?"
By rules as written: not a single point over, ever, never, liar, liar, pants on fire.
Take a hit for the team and go that 3 points below the limit, you can do it... you may get the shakes but you know it is the right thing to do.

Heh. When we were younger we would sometimes do this in 40k. Only ever among our group of friends.

Then we all quit the hobby for about 5 years. When we got back into it, we always stuck to the point limit. None of us have ever thought of doing it again. Which is all to the best since my brothers kids are now getting into the gmaes, so it's best to teach them better gaming etiquette.

 Talizvar wrote:
It is fairly easy.
Notice the irregularity, calmly point it out.
They get all angry about it, odds are pretty good it was a cheat.
If they adjust with an "I'm sorry" or "forgot" or something to that effect: no harm no foul.
If you continue to see further shenanigans: it is most likely a lifestyle and just do not play them again.
If it is over the top in quantity and they are aggressive: just pack it up then and there and say "I guess you do not want to play a real game.".
If there are still doubts, you may have to continue to be picky until you figure out if they just are all over the place, new or it is intentional.

I find that people who like to cheat in general lean on the "loud and authoritative voice" to carry them through.
Rule books with tabs attached in them make those guys nervous...

One method that I have used is to crush them utterly.

It is not surprising how few cheaters actually have any tactical sense.

I still won't play with a cheater more than once, though.

The Auld Grump

Had this issue with a friend of mine. He's not cheating, per se, but definitely some selective interpretation. Having others around to also call the issue seems to have really helped. That way it's not a he said-he said situation.

Usually if the opponent is cheating, I get my wing-man over by the wall to flip the lights so I can nonchalantly flip the table. If the table is bolted to the floor, I swipe my arm across the entire table so all the models end up on the floor. Perfect plan.

Just in case it wasn't clear, I am joking