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So I understand that I have to set some points aside if I want to summon something in matched play. I am fine with that, although I still think you should be able to summon at a "discount" when you do it in-game.

There are some models where I want to know how it exactly works though.

1) Kairos Fateweaver can turn units into Chaos Spawns. If i understand right, I can only put that spawn on the battlefield if I still have enough points for reinforcements. (I named Kairos here, but there are other units there who also turn other units into spawn)

2) The "Lord of Chaos" can turn into a daemon prince if he kills a hero, or into a spawn if he dies. I suppose I have to pay for the DP / Spawn as if I would have summoned the model, but I am not sure...

3) Pink Horrors. Silver Tower gave us 2 warscrolls for blue / brimstone horrors. If a pink horror dies, two blue horrors appear, which then spawn brimstone horrors on death. There are no points cost for blue / brimstone horrors, but in this case just "summoning" new units for free just seems way overpowered.

I read in another forum that you can't use blue / brim horrors *because* they dont have point costs. But then again the FAQ/errata tells us you can summon scenery for free *because* scenery doesnt cost points.

Is summoning just screwed up that badly in matched play? Right now I think I am better off to just not use summoning / reinforcements at all, but maybe I just misunderstand something here...

Matched play units/war-scrolls without point values can't be used iirc.

Your examples aren't exactly summoning vs. replacing actual models.

I would think the points costs is inherent in the ability. So if you play Pink Horrors and know they turn into Blue ones and Brimstone after that. It's how they worked before.

You were paying for Pink Horrors. You didn't then pay for a seperate unit of blue horrors, etc.

Does the war-scroll say "summon" or does it say "turn into" for your question 1 & 2?

I'm having similar thoughts about how to implement the blood kiss rule that the coven throne and Neferata have, in which they turn enemy slain heroes into vampire lords.

Is this summoning, do I need to set aside points for this ability?

We had this occur during our world event and items described as turning into (like chaos spawn) - they just replaced the model with a spawn.

I'd have to check the FAQ to see if this was specifically addressed but currently work blocked.

Kairos' spell says "...If models were slain by this spell, you can set up a Chaos Spawn within 3" of that unit."

Lord of Chaos' ability says "If a Lord of Chaos slays the opposing army general, then you can choose to replace him with a Deamon Prince model. If the Lord of Chaos is slain, you can replace him with a Chaos Spawn instead." - Both times it says "you can replace".

Blue / Brimstone Horrors do not have points cost *at all*. Instead their warscrolls say "If a unit of -pink- horrors suffers any casualties during hero, shooting or combat phase, the slain Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of the phase. Two Blue Horrors are created for each slain Pink Horror. If there is already a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6" of the Pink Horrors, add Blue Horrors to that unit, otherwise set them up as a new unit within 6" of the Pink Horror unit. If a rule causes a whole unit of Pink Horrors to be removed at once (excluding Battleshock), you can create a unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The new unit has two models for each model in the unit of Pink Horrors at the point in which it is removed, and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horror unit." (for brimstone are the same, but each slain Blue Horror creates one Brimstone Horror)

None of the spells/abilities *summon* anything.

I am sorry if this is a lot of text, but I want to be sure I understand a unit before I get them (and I really like turning things into Chaos Spawns!).

Mickmann wrote:
None of the spells/abilities *summon* anything.

And the 'Reinforcement Points' section of the rules never use the word "summon" either.

Ok, I took a look at reinforcement again, and i see now that it clearly says "if something lets you add or replace a unit" i have to pay for it. That kinda destroys the Lord for me, and weakens Kairos' usefulness in my opinion.



Horrors: The warscrolls dont have points-values, probably because blue horrors are *meant to* come into play as replacements for pink horrors.
But still I dont find anything preventing me from using blue / brimstone horrors.

I agree. I think the Horrors are just what they are. You are not adding reinforcements or summoning them.

It's just their mechanic.

Mickmann wrote:
Ok, I took a look at reinforcement again, and i see now that it clearly says "if something lets you add or replace a unit" i have to pay for it. That kinda destroys the Lord for me, and weakens Kairos' usefulness in my opinion.



Horrors: The warscrolls dont have points-values, probably because blue horrors are *meant to* come into play as replacements for pink horrors.
But still I dont find anything preventing me from using blue / brimstone horrors.

Because none of the silver tower units have points values as defined in the silver tower PDF and as a result are unusable.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/ENG_Silver_Tower_PB.pdf

Thanks, I can't say that I am happy with that outcome, but that clarifies things for me

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
I agree. I think the Horrors are just what they are. You are not adding reinforcements or summoning them.

It's just their mechanic.

It's not summoning, anything that allows you to place/set up a new unit needs to be paid for so unfortunately so would those blue and brimstone horrors... if they had points so they could be used in the first place of course.

For this example it seems silly.

I understand the rulling about summoning units for free and needing to pay for them.

Sounds like the FB page is the place to go make a suggestion!

I really hate the idea of things that get replaced by other things cost the full amount too. For stuff like that there should really be no cost having it incorporated into the unit that has the ability's cost or having a reduced cost.

For horrors, at least, this problem would be solved if they could be part of the same unit as the one they were in when they change cause replenishing existing units is free but they just can't go over their starting count.

How does reinforcing existing units work anyways. The summon spells all say create new units. Or can I use "summon Horrors" for example to boost a unit of exiting horror, as long as their unit size doesnt exeed their starting size ?

Is there any other way to add models zo existing units?

There are specific abilities. So for example with Daemons, "Reality Blinks" allows you to add models to a unit (up to a max of original size in matched play).
Normal summoning/reinforcements set up new units.

Yes in matched play summoning got beaten down with a nerf stick.

For good reason.

It was busted. As in probably the most busted thing I have ever seen in a game in 25 years busted.

Friendlies and narratives yo udon' tneed to play by those rules, so if you keep it within reason I don't see a problem with it.

Competitive play or pick up gamges, the social experiment that was AOS year 1 shows that people have no restraint and will do whatever they can to win, so in my opinion it is fitting that in competitive play it get removed as it has no place in competitive matched play.

I also think the rule is very clear.

If you are adding something to your army that did not exist before, you have to pay its points. If a model turns another model into something else, you are taking your opponent's model and turning it into something else and then adding it to your army. You'd pay points for it. Thats as clear as it gets. The only way this is not clear is if someone wants it to be something else and are looking for a loophole in the wording.

The largest problem I see is that AOS was not built for competitive play and now that its tacked on, and has *shock surprise* become the vast default, many abilities don't fit into the game anymore because they only really work when you aren't using the matched play rules... which is super rare these days.