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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




What is everyone's opinions on why when the High and Dark Elves were broken into various sub-factions they were stripped of a unifying keyword? The ramifications have left both factions in a bad state with broken synergies left unresolved all over the place. I can't help but see this as some colossal accident. Maybe am I missing something? What, if any exists, was the logic for what was done?


Thanks!
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut




I do not feel like reading all those warscrolls.
Could you tell me which synergies where broken?
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




all factions were split into sub-factions not just the elves. You can still use the legacy warscrolls if you want that synergy your talking about.

Honestly, I found it hasn't really hurt them at all. As a Dark Elves player I almost always run Coven. No command abilities kinda sucks but magic from a couple of different sorceresses usually makes up for it. Also nice having my Executioners charge and attack in the command phase and attack again in the combat phase

Yeah by Blood Cauldron cant give the 6 up ward save to everything in 9" and my Fleetmaster cant give re-rolls to any unit, not that you would ever not target Corsairs. However, the Battalion benefits tend to bridge the gap.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






While direct synergies were broken in many places (abilities that explicitly target certain keywords) conventional ones have not been. There is still a broad selection of units to fit different battlefield roles that now can be mixed and matched with much greater flexibility. Darkshards can provide ranged support for phenix guard, for example. Aelves can also be mixed with other races easily, and I have seen one or two such units used to great effect in an otherwise non-aelf army.

We'll get dedicated 'solo' factions of aelves when they do the shadowkin and light armies.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

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Scouting Shade






I do play a Daughters of Khaine force with a sprinkle of Covenant/Sylvaneth for cheap battleline. The core is 2-3 medusae, the cauldron, a hag on a dragonfate dais, 10 witches and some executioners, with 2 units of dryads or 10 darkshards/10 dryads acting as battlelines (I play at small points count) and except the disappointment of not letting my Executioners attack twice per combat phase I find it's rather nice. Would love a bit more toys for my core army, but Covens/Daughters have plenty of nice troops.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Aezeal wrote:
I do not feel like reading all those warscrolls.
Could you tell me which synergies where broken?



A simple example is the Highborn Totem Leader the Lothern Sea Helm. This guy creates an 8" +1 to wound bubble for Highborn keyword units. This now effects nearly no other units, certainly none worth mentioning (sword masters, phoenix guard, etc.). Same story for the Exiles Totem Master with Battle Standard 8" re-roll 1s to wound bubble for Exiles.

Seems hard to believe this was intentional to leave the aelves with no totem? In any case this is only one of a plethora of examples of now useless keyword dependent abilities on nearly every aelf character.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

buffalozap wrote:
Aezeal wrote:
I do not feel like reading all those warscrolls.
Could you tell me which synergies where broken?



A simple example is the Highborn Totem Leader the Lothern Sea Helm. This guy creates an 8" +1 to wound bubble for Highborn keyword units. This now effects nearly no other units, certainly none worth mentioning (sword masters, phoenix guard, etc.). Same story for the Exiles Totem Master with Battle Standard 8" re-roll 1s to wound bubble for Exiles.

Seems hard to believe this was intentional to leave the aelves with no totem? In any case this is only one of a plethora of examples of now useless keyword dependent abilities on nearly every aelf character.

The Sea Helm is no longer a character in any regards aside from "Legacy". Sea Guard are gone too (regrettably).

Totems, in general, seem to be something either an army has in spades or almost none of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 22:32:50


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Kanluwen wrote:
buffalozap wrote:
Aezeal wrote:
I do not feel like reading all those warscrolls.
Could you tell me which synergies where broken?



A simple example is the Highborn Totem Leader the Lothern Sea Helm. This guy creates an 8" +1 to wound bubble for Highborn keyword units. This now effects nearly no other units, certainly none worth mentioning (sword masters, phoenix guard, etc.). Same story for the Exiles Totem Master with Battle Standard 8" re-roll 1s to wound bubble for Exiles.

Seems hard to believe this was intentional to leave the aelves with no totem? In any case this is only one of a plethora of examples of now useless keyword dependent abilities on nearly every aelf character.

The Sea Helm is no longer a character in any regards.

Totems, in general, seem to be something either an army has in spades or almost none of.


Generals handbook page 148 Lothern Sea Helm 100 points. Please tell me what you meant by Lothern Sea Helm not being a character in any regards?
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

buffalozap wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
buffalozap wrote:
Aezeal wrote:
I do not feel like reading all those warscrolls.
Could you tell me which synergies where broken?



A simple example is the Highborn Totem Leader the Lothern Sea Helm. This guy creates an 8" +1 to wound bubble for Highborn keyword units. This now effects nearly no other units, certainly none worth mentioning (sword masters, phoenix guard, etc.). Same story for the Exiles Totem Master with Battle Standard 8" re-roll 1s to wound bubble for Exiles.

Seems hard to believe this was intentional to leave the aelves with no totem? In any case this is only one of a plethora of examples of now useless keyword dependent abilities on nearly every aelf character.

The Sea Helm is no longer a character in any regards.

Totems, in general, seem to be something either an army has in spades or almost none of.


Generals handbook page 148 Lothern Sea Helm 100 points. Please tell me what you meant by Lothern Sea Helm not being a character in any regards?

I edited it to make it more clear.

Sure, he's a legacy item--but he's not in the Order book. He didn't get updated or put into Swifthawk Agents or what have you.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Kanluwen wrote:
buffalozap wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
buffalozap wrote:
Aezeal wrote:
I do not feel like reading all those warscrolls.
Could you tell me which synergies where broken?



A simple example is the Highborn Totem Leader the Lothern Sea Helm. This guy creates an 8" +1 to wound bubble for Highborn keyword units. This now effects nearly no other units, certainly none worth mentioning (sword masters, phoenix guard, etc.). Same story for the Exiles Totem Master with Battle Standard 8" re-roll 1s to wound bubble for Exiles.

Seems hard to believe this was intentional to leave the aelves with no totem? In any case this is only one of a plethora of examples of now useless keyword dependent abilities on nearly every aelf character.

The Sea Helm is no longer a character in any regards.

Totems, in general, seem to be something either an army has in spades or almost none of.


Generals handbook page 148 Lothern Sea Helm 100 points. Please tell me what you meant by Lothern Sea Helm not being a character in any regards?

I edited it to make it more clear.

Sure, he's a legacy item--but he's not in the Order book. He didn't get updated or put into Swifthawk Agents or what have you.


Yes that does make more sense.

All of this still leaves me confused as to the "why" of the changes. As we know from the Merovingian's teachings " Why is what separates us from them, you from me. Why is the only real source of power, without it you are powerless".
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






The why is based on which kits they decided to discontinue, which is in turn based off sales (presumably) and continued transferral to GW being all-plastic.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The why is based on which kits they decided to discontinue, which is in turn based off sales (presumably) and continued transferral to GW being all-plastic.


I still don't understand. If they were simply consolidating to discontinue then why not just drop those units from for sale product line? There was no implicit need to break the Highborn and Exiles both into many smaller sub factions and strip them of their parent keywords. Right, or am I missing something?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Well first off GW is splitting everyone into their component sub-factions, that's how they do things in AoS. So these three large elf factions need to be split into smaller sub-factions, which means they group them based on aesthetic and gameplay style. Did they go a bit too far with that and split things up too much? I believe so, but what's done is done and I am optimistic about how they will manage that going forward since the recent battletome have been so good.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well first off GW is splitting everyone into their component sub-factions, that's how they do things in AoS. So these three large elf factions need to be split into smaller sub-factions, which means they group them based on aesthetic and gameplay style. Did they go a bit too far with that and split things up too much? I believe so, but what's done is done and I am optimistic about how they will manage that going forward since the recent battletome have been so good.


To quote Tyler Durden "Still not getting it". Slaves to darkness, a legacy list, still has 23 units up on the GW site for sale and Blood Bound are sitting at 28. Seraphon, another legacy list is looking at 33 while Storm Cast are working with 36 units. All the Exiles left up on the GW store add up to only 23 units if you add up the sub factions together while the Highborn count is a paltry 16 (including the kit to make the afore mentioned Lothern Sea Helm). The argument that GW needed to break up the "three large elf factions" falls flat to me in the face of these facts.

Any other theories out there?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






While true, the argument that the splits don't make sense isn't a compelling reason for why GW didn't do it. This is last year's GW, the list of senseless decisions they made in 2015 alone is rather long.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

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I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

buffalozap wrote:
Slaves to darkness, a legacy list, still has 23 units up on the GW site for sale...

You can't always go by the number listed in the menu. Of those 23 'units' for Slaves to Darkness, one is a Start Collecting box, one is the Warhammer Quest: Arcane Heroes box, one is Chaos Familiars, one is the push-fit Chaos Warriors and two are upgrade packs for Chaos Warriors. Your 23 'units' just became 17.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/04 01:47:51


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in ph
Scouting Shadow Warrior




As someone who plays both highborn and exile aelfs, I find it annoying that there are no non-allegiance bound battleline units that are not from the compendium list. Meanwhile, because of what models I currently own, I have almost no heroes with command abilties that I can field, forcing me to buy something. Although I find it amusing that what used to look like expensive centerpiece models now seem relatively cheap vs current ones. (e.g. aelf dragons vs drakes)
   
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The delf core units are all battleline. A command ability on your warscroll is nice but everyone gets inspiring presence. I regularly run generals with special command abilities that do synergize with my army but rarely use them.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The delf core units are all battleline. A command ability on your warscroll is nice but everyone gets inspiring presence. I regularly run generals with special command abilities that do synergize with my army but rarely use them.


Inspiring Presence is just so good this is usually what happens to me too. If I need to use a Command Ability thats different I usually end up using the Battalion ability and some of those don't count as using a command ability so you can do both.

Don't forget you get an extra command ability for free for Order if you do Matched Play.
   
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Command traits are different from command abilities, they can be used at the same time.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Left this alone for the day and thought it over. I realized while looking at the question from the perspective of profit the answer becomes clear. Lots of long time Warhammer players are sitting on extensive collections of Aelves Miniatures and it is bad for business to give them a level playing field with the new released factions. So we see the natural solution was taken to break the aelves to encourage those people to buy into the new miniature ranges and factions. I had hoped I was wrong but I gave it a lot of thought and there is no other explanation for why the aelves were butchered. Well none other that I can see. I would love to be wrong but nobody has chimed in with an alternative explanation.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Except far more players own chaos models.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Scouting Shadow Warrior




aquietfrog wrote:
As someone who plays both highborn and exile aelfs, I find it annoying that there are no non-allegiance bound battleline units that are not from the compendium list. Meanwhile, because of what models I currently own, I have almost no heroes with command abilties that I can field, forcing me to buy something. Although I find it amusing that what used to look like expensive centerpiece models now seem relatively cheap vs current ones. (e.g. aelf dragons vs drakes)


Looks like I left out a few words that made my statement unclear.

What I meant was for former highborn aelves, there are no non-allegiance bound battleline units that are not from the compendium list.

For my exiles, the heroes that I currently own are all mostly just on the compendium list. I am thoroughly annoyed that the dreadlord on cold one is not in order serpentis. even the master with standard.

I do agree however that this makes me want to buy more new miniatures so I could field proper allegiance lists. But I am holding off until I see any new aelf kits.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Oh, I see. That does sound irritating. My best advice would be to combine them, after all there is no such thing as Dark/High elves anymore, there are justa single block of Aelves and the various sub-factions. Daughters of Khaine are as much a different faction from Darling Covens as they are from Lion Rangers.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh, I see. That does sound irritating. My best advice would be to combine them, after all there is no such thing as Dark/High elves anymore, there are justa single block of Aelves and the various sub-factions. Daughters of Khaine are as much a different faction from Darling Covens as they are from Lion Rangers.


That's just the problem though you can't combine them in any meaningful way any more. It was bad enough when they were originally listed as High Dark and Wood Elves because that is against the fluff as it stood at the end of the end times. Now its exasperated because even those three are further blasted apart into even smaller (often useless) sub factions with no unification via hero abilities and keyword synergies.

Did some one over at GW have an axe to grind against the aelves or something? I still don't get it except as a very obvious cash grab to try to get elf players to ditch their armies and buy sigmarines or whatever.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Actually trying to push Stormcast does seem like a reason they might split up Order so much; the other grand alliances don't have the poster-boys of AoS. But that still leaves a few weird elements; Seraphon are the only faction I know of that didn't get split at all, while Welves only had Sylvaneth split off and the rest turned into Wanderers. What if different people were responsible for splitting up different parts of the old armies? Maybe the guy/group assigned high & dark elves wasn't quite on board with what was supposed to happen.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Thanks to Vince Tom and Mitch for tackling this topic in Vince's Weekly Stream!


https://www.youtube.com/user/PhatWOP001
   
Made in us
Scarab with a Cracked Shell





NinthMusketeer the big problem is that many of the abilities that give synergy in other armies were updated in the new Aelf warscrolls (not the legacy ones) to be tied to the Keyword for their new very small sub-faction of "The armies formerly known as Elves" so they only work on that sub-faction.
These keywords replaced the keyword used in the legacy elf warscrolls (Highborn for High Elves) causing them to also not be affected by abilities from units that only have legacy warscrolls.
There are some exceptions like the High Elf Mage Archmage spell Shield of Saphery Elemental Shield which can affect any unit in your army but most are not like that.
Most of these sub-factions have 3 - 5 purchasable things in them which generally don't make a coherent army.

Tomb Kings were not split up either but that is almost certainty because they were discontinued.
I don't know enough about Bretonia to tell but they may be intact or nearly so for the same reason.

The Death faction has similar issues but not as bad as elves do.
They are much better off since many abilities are tied to common non sub-faction specific keywords like Death, Skeleton, and Bonerattle.
The Deadwalkers and Deathmages sub-factions only seem to exist because they did not feel like shoehorning those warscrolls in elsewhere.
Deathmages only has two units, Mortis Engine and Necromancer, neither battleline so you can never even take only that sub-faction in Matched Play games.
Nighthaunt fees like a unfinished sub-faction more than anything else, the Black Coach needs a Mage to activate it's ability and the sub-faction does not have one.
The Soulblight faction feels like they just dumped whatever non-legacy vampires were left after they split up the rest of Death there.
They already had the Soulblight keyword in their legacy warscrolls so Keyword tinkering won't cripple them like it did elves.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/10/06 03:19:44


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 arclance wrote:
Tomb Kings were not split up either but that is almost certainty because they were discontinued.
I don't know enough about Bretonia to tell but they may be intact or nearly so for the same reason.

The factions were split up when the Grand Alliance books were released, which was also when the models which weren't being carried over were placed in the Last Chance to Buy category in the online store.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Scarab with a Cracked Shell





 Ghaz wrote:
 arclance wrote:
Tomb Kings were not split up either but that is almost certainty because they were discontinued.
I don't know enough about Bretonia to tell but they may be intact or nearly so for the same reason.
The factions were split up when the Grand Alliance books were released, which was also when the models which weren't being carried over were placed in the Last Chance to Buy category in the online store.
I don't really understand what you meant to convey with this comment.
It does not seem to relate to what I intended to convey with the quoted section so it confuses me.
If it was not clear I meant that I don't know enough about the Pre-AoS Bretonian rulebook to determine if there is anything missing from their legacy warscrolls in that section of t he Generals Handbook or notice if anything showed up in the general Order Faction points section instead.
I would not be surprised if GW did not pay someone to spend the time to break up a faction they were going to discontinue so it would not surprise me if the Bretonian faction was not split up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 03:35:55


 
   
 
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