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OK. Here's something that realy annoys me. Deep Strike and assault.

OK we all know the a unit that arives from Deep Strike Reserve can't assault in the same turn it arives. We don't know why, "It's not fair"or some such nonsence. But most folks I discuss these concerns with sit there looking dumb'struck and say stuff like "those are the fules aren't they".

Yes they are. Well done. You can read a rule book. Go get a gold star from teacher.

The point isn't that those are the rules as written. The point is that people don't question or amend those rules when they clearly go against everything that 40K fluff tells us about drop assault units.

A Space Wolf would not wait 40 odd seconds before charginging the enemy, Commander Dante's honour guard would assault the second their feet touched the ground and there is not a blizzard in hell's chance that a squad of Khorne Berzerkers is going to leep from their Dreadclaw and stop to check squad coherency. Get real.

Any way let us accept for now that there is a valid reason that an infantry unit ariving by deep strike can't assault that turn. there is still a massive game braking rules fluff up for which no agument can't be made. Deep striking vehicles with the assault vehicles special rule, whose occupants can't assault the turn they arrive from reserves .

Now the sole reason vehicles like the Caestus and Kharydis exist in the 40K universe is to deliver troops in the thickest fight in a battle zone, allowing them to engage their foes in close assaults and fire fights before their opponents have a chance to react.

That is how assault vehicles work in all the novels from black library and in the fluff in our Codex:s.

Now this is how they work in game.

Kharybdis lands within assault range of enemy command squad. The assault squad it's carrying disembarks. They can shoot but count as having moved. Fair enough they have just slammed into a planet at high speed in agiant spikey sardine tin, aim's gonna be a little off. Now our blood thirsty killers can do one of the folllowing. As I explained above they can stand their ground and fire away. Another option is to move and then fire (usual restrictions aply). Or they could forgo shooting altogether and fun in the shooting phase instead.

Now if they choose to run it should be towards the nearest scrap of cover. Beacause in the assault phase, having disembarked from an assault vehicle, our assault squad can, "DO NOTHING".

That's N O T H I N G "Nothing".

Oponent's turn.

Now the command unit who where taken completely by surprise by our legion assault squad's sudden and violent arrival get to use psychic powers, move into strategic positions, shoot ranged weapons and them insult of insults assault the assault squad who couldn't assault from their assault vehicle. Utterly ridiculous.

I mean does this make sence to anyone ?

Well, If you want a fluffy reason, there just isn't that much time in a round. First the pod has to land, then the doors open, the marines unbuckle their safety belts / dreadnought gets out of his booster seat. After which they leave the vehicle shooting madly in each direction.
If a modern machine gun fires 900 rounds per second and a bolter fires twice per round then they have 1.3 tenths of a second to do all of that. Super human they may be, but gods they are not.

I look at it this way...

Terminators teleporting in from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The air becomes charged. Your hair stands on end. You feel a flash of light and a distinct pressure as displaced air assaults you. As the dust settles, you look up to see Terminators standing where none stood before. They start to move towards you. There's your first turn. Teleportation isn't quite instantaneous. It requires standing still and is somewhat disorienting.

Assault Marines "jumping in" from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: You feel a deep rumble in your gut as the Stormbirds fly overhead. One comes in particularly low overhead and you see a hatch begin to open. Red armored Marines leap from the hatch and ignite their Jump Packs. The whine of their jets strikes terror into your heart. You raise your weapons and fire as they come closer. There's your first turn. Jump Pack deep striking isn't instantaneous. It requires jumping out of a flying ship of some sort and takes time to hit the ground.

Tactical Marines coming out of a Drop Pod form the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The Drop Pod screams down and hits the ground like a meteor, throwing up a cloud of debris. You scramble away quickly and take cover, raising your autogun as gases begin to his from hidden seams in the walls of the pod. With a sharp clanking sound, the pod seems to crack and the walls slam down, revealing the interior. You see Marines disengaging harnesses, grabbing bolters and climbing out of the pod. As the climb out, they bring their bolters to bear and you slink down, preying to the Primordial Annihilator for deliverance. There's your first turn. Riding a Drop Pod in from orbit isn't instantaneous. It takes a bit of time for the doors to open and Marines to climb out.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea. Most of the Deep Strike methods represent some form of teleportation or travel that is either not instantaneous OR is instantaneous, but requires a bit of build up or disorientation to achieve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My main point is that MOST forms of Deep Striking aren't actually TOTAL surprises. You generally have some sort of indication that something is coming OR your opponent is generally a little disoriented immediately after arriving.

No it doesn't make a lot of sense. I think you should be able to assault from deepstrike. If you think that is going to be a problem for your units, thas why overwatch exists, and defensive grenades, and correct cover usage

The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

And it doesn't work at all vs Tau. So there's that.

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

True, but i used the DA as an example because all their bikes get homers, you could get the same results with drop pods with TP homers.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

True, but i used the DA as an example because all their bikes get homers, you could get the same results with drop pods with TP homers.

Spending more points in the process. It's just so costly. It's the land raider effect. You end up paying so many points for a single assault. Any MSU list is laughing at you.

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

True, but i used the DA as an example because all their bikes get homers, you could get the same results with drop pods with TP homers.

Spending more points in the process. It's just so costly. It's the land raider effect. You end up paying so many points for a single assault.

True true, at the same time to, if you are a lucky roller, you could not scatter on your deep strikes and get units right up infront of your opponent with out needing all the fancy toys to get him there. Oh yeah of course, any MSU army, is going to overpower elite unit armies just by sheer numbers alone.

a 10 point teleport homer is worth every penny if it gets 5 assault termies into CC turn 2.

I think also the thing is if you assault from deep strike, you kill maybe 1 to 2 units, then you're just sitting out in the open to get shot at

Wow. Only one or two units before the opponent even gets a chance of shooting at you [effectively]. How terribly balanced.

Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

I'd be okay with this, but what is warp quake?

Personally, I feel like anything so disorientating that you cannot charge on the turn you arrive should ALSO mean that you're too disorientated to shoot properly when arriving either. I'd love to see all units only be able to make Snap Shots when arriving from Reserves.

This would make some units even worse than they already are. Stuff that is way too squishy to be a reliable distraction in the enemy backline, shooting also does not tie up units so its much lesser threat when a shooty unit pops in your line.

OK. So these are very good points, and for all the unit's that can deep through teleportation normal drop pods that is a given.

I allready said we were leaving those alone. The thing were it does not work is with deep striking assault vehicles, that can deep strike through there own propulsion.

A Kharybdis is solid example of this. Flurry data shows a kharybdid has enhance retro jets to pevent disorientation of it's pay load. Frag launchers and melter aray whitch keep nearby enemies pinned and on the back foot, Rapid access weapon stowedge ang quick release drop restraints. A unit in a kharybdis is already in the access hatches before the assault ramps drop.

the problem isn't actually just a fluff related isue though. It's a rules cock up.

Forge World Gave a bunch of their vehicle with deep strike the assault vehicle special rule without consulting GW and their rules interpretations clashed.

GW didn't want anything to assault from deep strike. FW already had stuff that did both refused to alter their product details. And we now have useless assault vehicles.

Now before I continue I want to make it clear I do knpw how to play the game and in the game it states that a unit disembarking from an assault vehicle may charge that, but Not If The Vehicle Arived From Resurves That Turn and for the official rules that's it.

However we have a problem. If a vehicle like a land raider is teleported into battle by psychic means or a has gaind the out flank abbillity as an aditional abbillity. Then one rule may cancel out the other.

The karybdis however always has both deep strike and assault vehicle, and so both rules should technically be in effect.

Now a lot of battle games and trading card have a clever of making these things work.

Where a special rule conflicts with a core game rule the special rule is given priority.

A good example in 40K would be "feel no pain". The rules state that no one unit may make more than one savving throw of eny kiny against any one source of damage, however feel no gives them second saving throw

Special rule takes priority over core rool.

In the case of deep strike and assault vehicle we are dealing with two special rules. Now in most game when two special rules conflict we use what is known in gaming circles as the law or rule of commonality.

Both rules have to have an effect on the card or unit in question so we look at the rules for two different forms of commonality.

The first is how common is the special rule well in the case of deep strike and assault vehicle deep strike is most common.

Deep strike is a special rule that effects dozens of units and can be bestowed upon a unit by it's transport, or even received through psychic powers, being in a certain formation or from a war lord trait,

Assault vehicle by contrast is very rare. Only affecting a handfull of transport vehicles.

So the most common rule deep strike would have it's effects aplied first then the less common rule assault vehicle would be aplied second any effects of assault vehicle that conflict with deep strike's effects are applied over that effect remove it from the list of effects the vehicle has.

Now sometimes the more commonfule has only one or two effects. In the case the second law applies. If when applying the less common you would leave the most common rule with no active effects, the you apply as many effects as possible without making the first rule redundant.

phwooo. looks more complicated than it is. realy.

Any way apply this system to units like the karybdis you get a kind of combie rule, I'll call it Deep Strike Assault.

Ido use more detailed rules in my house rule book. to give the opponent a better chance of deffending aginst this deep strike assault scenario. But not tonight I think I have done more than enough for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn I nearly forgot Kriswall. your description of deep strike through the eyes of a cultist is beautifully poetic, but when you say "and that's your first turn" you do know reserves can't arrive on your first turn right?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Wow. Only one or two units before the opponent even gets a chance of shooting at you [effectively]. How terribly balanced.

Actually yeah. That's not useful when scatterbikes murder unit after unit after unit from 36" away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

I disagree. Assault would still be the weakest phase of the game because of no sweeping advance. You kill one unit, and then get shot off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
This would make some units even worse than they already are. Stuff that is way too squishy to be a reliable distraction in the enemy backline, shooting also does not tie up units so its much lesser threat when a shooty unit pops in your line.

Shooting ties them up by removing them from the table. So it's better than tying them up.

What are you deep striking that's removing a unit with a single shooting phase?

 Bobthehero wrote:
What are you deep striking that's removing a unit with a single shooting phase?

Nothing, because Tau and Eldar generally don't deep strike. If Eldar do, it's D-scythes with the web way which removes ANYTHING in a single phase. Shooting lists don't have to deep strike. That's the whole problem.

Well obviously if you take the most op stuff you'll have skewered results...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well obviously if you take the most op stuff you'll have skewered results...

The counterpoint is why bother with anything else? I mean, yeah, BA can't deep strike a shooting unit and get anywhere, but it's a have-not codex. If I were an Eldar player, the only thing I'd bother deep striking would be D-scythes. Everything else delivers death from 36".

CSM can now drop assault from deep strike raptors all over them, and it just makes the matchup less in the Eldar's favor. It doesn't actually make the CSM the favorite in that match.

Obviously sweeping advance was way too powerful, but now the game is get shot to death before you assault or get shot to death after you win assault.

I wont bother with jetbikes and battlesuits because I don't play any faction that has access to that, nor do I want to.

The devil is always in the details. The scatterlaser is a 20 pt gun, not a 10 pt gun, and that one mistake gets propagated through an entire codex, making that codex almost invincible against half the the competition.

Isn't a game turn supposedly 6 seconds in real time? That's going by DnD logic.

Anyways, not being able to assault from deep strike is for the sake of game balance, not realism. Besides, drop pods are already OP as they are at 35 points per model. With inertial guidance systems, being able to automatically deep strike half turn one, and armor 12 all around, a regular drop pod should be 50 at least.

Why are you assaulting with a unit that can take damage? If you want to play an assault army, there are plenty of deathstars out there that can take 10k points of tau shooting and lose 1 guy. 'Oh, but I don't want to play a deathstar I just want to bounce a unit of Khorne berzerkers from combat to combat with guaranteed charge distance and no overwatch!' Yeah well, I want Pure Sisters to win the LVO, but that's not gonna happen.

ERJAK wrote:
Why are you assaulting with a unit that can take damage? If you want to play an assault army, there are plenty of deathstars out there that can take 10k points of tau shooting and lose 1 guy. 'Oh, but I don't want to play a deathstar I just want to bounce a unit of Khorne berzerkers from combat to combat with guaranteed charge distance and no overwatch!' Yeah well, I want Pure Sisters to win the LVO, but that's not gonna happen.

Is your reasoning that if someone wants to play a viable assault unit they should just play a different army that has a deathstar?

I bet in Age of Sig... I mean, Age of 40K, you will be able to deepstrike and charge, and then you'll have to pick which combat to fight, just like that other game.

Omg. Drop pods are overrated if anything not undercosted. With drop prods, if your alpha strike fails, there is no tomorrow because all your guys are on foot and therefore dead. They are also autolose vs tau atm.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

I'd be okay with this, but what is warp quake?

Warp Quake was GK Strike Squads' shtick under the 5e book, it was a psychic power that made anything that ended a Deep Strike within 12" of them after scattering mishapped automatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Omg. Drop pods are overrated if anything not undercosted. With drop prods, if your alpha strike fails, there is no tomorrow because all your guys are on foot and therefore dead. They are also autolose vs tau atm.

You know that every other army in the game would kill to get to bring in half their Reserves automatically on turn one in risk-free AV12 portable cover boxes, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NInjatactiks wrote:
...Isn't a game turn supposedly 6 seconds in real time?...

On that road lies madness.

The only way to make any of 40k make any sense at all as a simulation is to admit that time is an abstraction and distances are on a log scale. If a turn was defined as six seconds and distances were linearly about 6-7 feet to the inch you'd need a table 25 feet long before a Land Speeder couldn't cross the whole thing in a turn at full throttle.