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I don't understand why space marines are as popular as they are considering I have lost literally every game I have used them. No matter what I take, what I'm against, I always end upeither 15 points down or tabled by turn 3. I must be doing something wrong, because with these results there's no way they would be such a popular faction. So what's the deal? Am I just the 41st millenniums worst general (even though my necrons don't have this problem)?

What kind of space marine armies are you using? Space marines are not an army where you can put anything on the board and have it work. For them to actually be good you need to know what kind of army to build.

I usually try to have a mix of shooty and stabby with a handful of vehicles. Basically, I try not to put all my eggs in one basket.

Two questions.
1. Do you use terminators or landraiders ?
2. Do you use grav weapons ?

Army list you generally use would help.

You see, space marines are OP in battle company,

Decent / good / OP depending on demi build, with good being gimmick and OP being ironhands deadstar.

And pretty average / weak if CAD/fluffy/not grav spammed.

Marine codex allows you to build pretty weak lists with a nr of poor choices (terminators, assault squads, land raiders, and to an extend tacticals and devestators) which are iconic for marines.


it's pretty easy to go "wrong " with marines. Only (grav) cents, bikes, thunder fire and to an extend sternguard are legitimate "strong" units.

The only real constants in my lists are Murderwings (captain w/ jump pack and swiftstrike & murder) and his squad of vanguard with claws. Otherwise, I OWN 35 tacticals, 4 assault marines (Idk what happened to the last one), 5 sternguard, 5 scouts, a command squad, Predator, drop pod, dead, land speeder, and a brand new storm Raven. My opponents never have a problem with me using proxies for things like termies, which I usually do

Can you give us an example army list (and what points you normally play games at), and an idea of what your opponents usually have?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Army list you generally use would help.

Yeah, it would be advisable to comment on a specific list if only to avoid it becomes one of those traditional sm's are bad the rest is op kind of topics.

A recent list I used was the Raven Guard talon strike force taking

Demi-company:
Murderwings
3x 10 man tactical in drop pods
5x Assault w/ Jump packs and a Flamer
Las missile cents in a redeemer (against necrons so I figured grav wouldn't be as useful)

And the formation to take the storm Raven with stern and dred, plus the 5 man unbound vanguard to go with murderwings in the SR


That was a 2000 point fun game with my roommate for new years, but it's not too far off what I would play against others at my local place

Volgon wrote:
A recent list I used was the Raven Guard talon strike force taking

Demi-company:
Murderwings
3x 10 man tactical in drop pods
5x Assault w/ Jump packs and a Flamer
Las missile cents in a redeemer (against necrons so I figured grav wouldn't be as useful)

And the formation to take the storm Raven with stern and dred, plus the 5 man unbound vanguard to go with murderwings in the SR


That was a 2000 point fun game with my roommate for new years, but it's not too far off what I would play against others at my local place

10 man tactical squads aren't the best. They are a lot of points for a whole lot of nothing. 5 man squads with a combi-weapon/special in a Razorback will serve you better. Assault Squads with jumpacks outside of specific formations are very fragile and don't do a whole lot on their own. A solitary 5 man squad will accomplish little. Centurions need to be armed with Grav-cannons and have supporting characters to buff them to really shine.

Stormraven gunships are overcosted imo. Use a Stormtalon. They have a lot of firepower and are considerably cheaper. Plus you won't be tempted to stick an expensive squad in them and make the eventual death of a Stormraven hurt even more. I learned this lesson a long time ago when a Necron army shot my Stormraven filled with vets down and killed like 1/3 of my army. Dreadnoughts are okay but they need to go in a drop pod. Like your Sternguard.

How do you outfit your squads?

So, you are playing at 2k points?
Play CAD with bikes in troops with 3x man squad 2x gravgun, command squad on bikes with 4x gravguns in squad, centurions in droppod with gravcannons, 5x tacticals in droppod with melta and combi-melta.
Or play Gladius detachment with free transport, most common choice for space marine players. Just remember, never take more than 5 man in tactical squad and your only available wargear is either melta/combi-melta, or single gravcannon.

 TheCustomLime wrote:


How do you outfit your squads?

This, just give us a Army builder list or something like it. We can't say that much without knowing what upgrades and weapons you used.
It would also help to know on how you used them, including things like did you combat squad, where did your characters go how did you deploy what was your plan, ow did it work out etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Volgon wrote:

Las missile cents in a redeemer (against necrons so I figured grav wouldn't be as useful)

Wait what... Why would you want to equip centurions with las and missile stuff ( is this even possible) and why would you put a ranged unit into an expensive assault transport ?

oldzoggy wrote:

Volgon wrote:

Las missile cents in a redeemer (against necrons so I figured grav wouldn't be as useful)

Wait what... Why would you want to equip centurions with las and missile stuff ( is this even possible) and why would you put a ranged unit into an expensive assault transport ?

they weren't in it, they just took it as a dedicated so i could get it on the list. And when 90% of the targets have 4+ armor, grav doesn't sound as useful as a squad that can blow up ghost arks from across the map.

 Fruzzle wrote:
You see, space marines are OP in battle company,

Decent / good / OP depending on demi build, with good being gimmick and OP being ironhands deadstar.

And pretty average / weak if CAD/fluffy/not grav spammed.

Marine codex allows you to build pretty weak lists with a nr of poor choices (terminators, assault squads, land raiders, and to an extend tacticals and devestators) which are iconic for marines.


it's pretty easy to go "wrong " with marines. Only (grav) cents, bikes, thunder fire and to an extend sternguard are legitimate "strong" units.

Indeed, this summarizes it briefly.

A vital part of the game is tactics. Know your army. Know the enemy. Plan at least one round ahead. Try do read what the enemy is planning to do next.

Volgon wrote:

oldzoggy wrote:

Volgon wrote:

Las missile cents in a redeemer (against necrons so I figured grav wouldn't be as useful)

Wait what... Why would you want to equip centurions with las and missile stuff ( is this even possible) and why would you put a ranged unit into an expensive assault transport ?

they weren't in it, they just took it as a dedicated so i could get it on the list. And when 90% of the targets have 4+ armor, grav doesn't sound as useful as a squad that can blow up ghost arks from across the map.

Gravcannon makes five shots, lascannons have one. 15 shots against 3 for squad. With rerollable 15 shots you will easily kill any vehicle. Besides you have melta-combimelta tacticals in droppod to deal with them.

And do not take LR, it is just waste of point in current edition. There may be some use of it, but only with hard close combat unit inside

Dear god, this is almost a textbook example on how NOT to build a competitive marine list.

Just because you play your Necrons well doesn't mean you can jump straight into a different army, you have to go back to basics. Start with 2 Tactical squads, a Captain and maybe some Scouts, play a couple of small games with them, learn their strengths and weaknesses and expand from there.

Lord Kragan wrote:
Dear god, this is almost a textbook example on how NOT to build a competitive marine list.

Well that's why I'm here. I clearly have no idea what I'm doing, and all I've heard so far is spam bikes/grav.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Just because you play your Necrons well doesn't mean you can jump straight into a different army, you have to go back to basics. Start with 2 Tactical squads, a Captain and maybe some Scouts, play a couple of small games with them, learn their strengths and weaknesses and expand from there.

I'm coming from an army with literally no options on anything and where my bolter eqs can feth up just about anything, which I think is what's causing most of my problems.

Volgon wrote:
grav doesn't sound as useful

lol.. I never expected to read this in 7th edition.

As stated, you can't run your Space Marines like your Necrons. Space Marines aren't as durable, and their firepower isn't as universally applicable. As you stated, the Necron's standard weapon can take down anything, which is much easier to use. Space Marines have a "right weapon for the right job" thing to them, but there's some big cheats. In fact, Space Marines are probably one of the top 3 armies in the game right now.

Here's some tips:

#1 - Min/Max & Drop Pods:
Drop Pods will always get your unit where it needs to be, and Space Marine special weapons are very good at killing specific enemy types. So, take minimum sized squads with the maximum number of special and/or heavy weapons, and put them in lots of Drop Pods. Do note, you'll still need to work on your target acquisition skills. You need to gauge which weapon is right for which job, and how many pods you'll need to send to do it. Also, always remember to throw that Krak Grenade! It's a better shot than a bolter most of the time!

#2 - Grav Weapons:
As explained earlier, Grav Weapons are probably the main reason that Space Marines are so good. While they do get worse as your opponent's armour save gets worse, they're so effective that they're STILL the better choice in those situations! This is due to their quantity of firepower, often getting a reroll on the to-wound roll, and being AP2. From my experience, Grav is only worse than a Plasma Gun when firing at stuff with 6+ saves, and even then there's a chance at still being better simply due to a good die roll (since you're rolling so many shots).

#3 - Veterans, Centurians, and Bikers:
Tactical Marines, by and large, are not worth while. Take as few as you can. Veterans with Special Issue Ammo are amazing. Grav Centurians also lay out a blistering amount of firepower and can withstand a ton of punishment. Bikes, specifically White Scar Bikes, can get anywhere you need, which is very important for hitting enemies at a weak point, or moving them so they're in a more safe location from retaliation, while they also have the added protection of +1 Toughness and a Jink Save.

#4 - Psychic Powers:
As good as Marines are, when they lack support, they still may not have the punch to take things down quickly like they need to. This is where a Librarian comes in. Have them in a Drop Pod with something else that they'll be supporting, or put them on a Bike so they can zip about the battlefield finding the best spots for their buffing powers to be used. Give units that are exposed a 3+ Inv save, or grat a reroll to hit for your Grav Centurians. Perhaps have them ignore cover on their AP2 weapons, or make something Invisible. There's a lot of really phenomenally good powers, and Librarians get you there.

#5 - Formations, Formations, Formations:
The not-so-secret sauce of Space Marines, though, are their formations, since they can take any and all of the above and ramp them up to 11. The Gladius gives you FREE Drop Pods, which as you see above, are really good. Stick to the formations that include Veterans, Centurians, and Bikers and you can't really go wrong (the Skyhammer Annihilation Force is ridiculously effective though). A Librarius Conclave makes Psychic Powers a synch and can be easily added to a Gladius Strike Force as well.


In effect, start with the best stuff, and then put layer upon layer of bonuses. You'll have something that's so powerful it's broken.



Or, don't do that stuff and just focus on having fun with them in the face of overwhelming odds!

Volgon wrote:

Well that's why I'm here. I clearly have no idea what I'm doing, and all I've heard so far is spam bikes/grav.

Well, thats because that's how marines work in current edition) Grav/bike spam, or gladius free transport spam.

To be more precise, when anyone in this thread talked about "battle company" they mean the Gladius Strike Force, a Detachment of Formations.

Play that using the White Scars Chapter Tactics, give your Devastators Grav Cannons, put them in Rhinos and have Kor'sarro Khan be your Warlord and you're set to take on anything. Other squads you can put into Assault Cannon Razorbacks.

TL;DR: Your whole army has Scout, around 500 points of free transports in a 1500 point game (for example) and the infantry have Hit & Run so you can't be tied down easily. Give one Gravcannon Devastator Squad a Chaplain with The Hunter's Eye Relic - it now ignores Cover.

Volgon wrote:
A recent list I used was the Raven Guard talon strike force taking

Demi-company:
Murderwings
3x 10 man tactical in drop pods
5x Assault w/ Jump packs and a Flamer
Las missile cents in a redeemer (against necrons so I figured grav wouldn't be as useful)

And the formation to take the storm Raven with stern and dred, plus the 5 man unbound vanguard to go with murderwings in the SR


That was a 2000 point fun game with my roommate for new years, but it's not too far off what I would play against others at my local place

There's the issue right there.

You're playing Raven Guard's Talon Strike Force. As great as the Sons of Corax are, fluffwise, their rules are incredibly lackluster and we lose out on alot of the good stuff from SM by taking the Talon. We lose our access to Librarians, to Centurions, and to Thunderfire Cannons.

The best thing I can ask right now is, do you have any Scouts? One of the best formations we have going for us is the Shadowstrike Kill-Team, which consists of Vanguard Veterans and Scouts with the VV able to Deep Strike on turn one(when part of a Talon Strike Force) and Charge when they do so. They get a super-accurate DS when within a certain distance of two or more units of Scouts from the Formation.

That will let you put those Unbound Vanguard to use there.

It's been said before, but it can't be stressed enough how good grav weapons are. The number of AP2 wounds you're applying while disregarding toughness makes it a highly effective elite killer that's still reasonably good against lower armoured hordes. Offset it's increase in points by pairing it with the hurricane bolter and you won't have to fear the naked masses either.

Assault isn't great this edition, basically the only people who are making it work are stacking in buffs to push up to t5 2+ 3++ supermen with re-rolls out every orifice. A minimum sized assault squad's best hope of making it's points back is a long-shot melta-bomb run.

There is some just fantastic advice flying around in this thread so i'm going to ask questions. (Sorry for the slight hi-jack OP, it should be small and it's on the same vein).

I'm playing in a 1,000 points cap.

Trying to decide on how best to have tactical squads.

Right now i'm at 2 squads of 10 (which i could combat squad into 4 separate chunks). Each one is running (with a slight "sideboard"): combi-melta, MM, Meltagun, or side boarded with specialist grav, and heavy bolter for the heavy slot.

Is this overkill? If i could reduce this to 1 squad, or 1 and half squads, that opens up for additional options.

I guess my question is: at 1000 what's the "right" number of boots on the ground?

 Marmatag wrote:
There is some just fantastic advice flying around in this thread so i'm going to ask questions. (Sorry for the slight hi-jack OP, it should be small and it's on the same vein).

I'm playing in a 1,000 points cap.

Trying to decide on how best to have tactical squads.

Right now i'm at 2 squads of 10 (which i could combat squad into 4 separate chunks). Each one is running (with a slight "sideboard"): combi-melta, MM, Meltagun, or side boarded with specialist grav, and heavy bolter for the heavy slot.

Is this overkill? If i could reduce this to 1 squad, or 1 and half squads, that opens up for additional options.

I guess my question is: at 1000 what's the "right" number of boots on the ground?

MM is pretty useless without relentless. As was said before, there is no reason to take full tactical squad. So better run 5x marine with melta and combimelta in droppod, or singe gravcannon.
But for small games I would recommend use bikes.

Silver144 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There is some just fantastic advice flying around in this thread so i'm going to ask questions. (Sorry for the slight hi-jack OP, it should be small and it's on the same vein).

I'm playing in a 1,000 points cap.

Trying to decide on how best to have tactical squads.

Right now i'm at 2 squads of 10 (which i could combat squad into 4 separate chunks). Each one is running (with a slight "sideboard"): combi-melta, MM, Meltagun, or side boarded with specialist grav, and heavy bolter for the heavy slot.

Is this overkill? If i could reduce this to 1 squad, or 1 and half squads, that opens up for additional options.

I guess my question is: at 1000 what's the "right" number of boots on the ground?

MM is pretty useless without relentless. As was said before, there is no reason to take full tactical squad. So better run 5x marine with melta and combimelta in droppod, or singe gravcannon.
But for small games I would recommend use bikes.

Fair point - But also the current "meta" within my group is AV heavy. I need to be able to deal with multiple dreadnoughts and predators at a time. But your advice is spot on, they will present some difficulty in using. I will most likely relegate them to the sideboard.

Would you run 2 squads of 5 or 4 squads of 5 with specials?

I'd rather run them in squads of 5 with melta and combi-melta sergeant, a squad of 10 will die almost as fast and I feel like five more bolters combat squadded to have them run off and do their own thing is points better spent elsewhere.

What else are you running?

 Marmatag wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There is some just fantastic advice flying around in this thread so i'm going to ask questions. (Sorry for the slight hi-jack OP, it should be small and it's on the same vein).

I'm playing in a 1,000 points cap.

Trying to decide on how best to have tactical squads.

Right now i'm at 2 squads of 10 (which i could combat squad into 4 separate chunks). Each one is running (with a slight "sideboard"): combi-melta, MM, Meltagun, or side boarded with specialist grav, and heavy bolter for the heavy slot.

Is this overkill? If i could reduce this to 1 squad, or 1 and half squads, that opens up for additional options.

I guess my question is: at 1000 what's the "right" number of boots on the ground?

MM is pretty useless without relentless. As was said before, there is no reason to take full tactical squad. So better run 5x marine with melta and combimelta in droppod, or singe gravcannon.
But for small games I would recommend use bikes.

Fair point - But also the current "meta" within my group is AV heavy. I need to be able to deal with multiple dreadnoughts and predators at a time. But your advice is spot on, they will present some difficulty in using. I will most likely relegate them to the sideboard.

Would you run 2 squads of 5 or 4 squads of 5 with specials?

12/24 range on static modes is the problem. Take lots on meltapods if your local meta is vehicle-oriented. Or gravcenturions at pods as well, they can glance any heavy AV to death