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So I'm taking a break from a day of boring grown-up stuff to bring you this:

I started 40k in earnest with Orks. Once I got them where I wanted, I graduated to using Guard and now Blood Angels.

I've been playing for a couple of years now against a variety of opponents. To be honest, I still feel I'm best with Orks and that they are underrated as a faction.

IMHO, despite what the fluff would have you believe, Orks are actually an army that reward you for being cunning, knowing the rules and using actual tactics. You don't get point-and-click uber units, and you're still better off using a CAD (or double CAD if points allow), but I maintain that they're a good army if you know what you're doing. You also have to avoid trying to playing the deathstar game - Ork characters work better as support for boyz.

Here's what I miss about my Orks when I play using one of my other factions:

* Versatility. The combination of boyz and powerful characters helps them to deal with almost any threat on the tapletop. Want to kill horde infantry? Your boyz will gun them down and stomp them flat. Elite infantry, vehicles or monstrous creatures? Drown them in choppa attacks and finish them off with power klaws. Gargantuans and super-heavies? Make them waste their attacks killing boyz and then clobber them with power klaws. No need to worry about deep striking troops failing their reserve rolls or scattering away from their intended targets. Some other armies have access to lethal close combat troops, but IMO the only ones who can really match Orks for versatility are wulfen and *maybe* death company.

* Fire support. Yes, I am serious. In the games I've played, my flash gitz and bikers have been absolute stars. There is nothing like the look on a Tau player's face when he realises that greenskins have blasted his riptides off the table. I don't use lootas, but I know other players fear them.

* Battlewagons. Unequivocally the most points-efficient transport in the game. For 125 points you can get your boyz into combat or give your shooty units a great gunboat. You can end up spamming a lot of AV14 and the sight of so many wagons full of bloodthirsty Orks coming at them can be quite intimidating for your opponent. Opponents also tend to ignore them once the guys inside have disembarked, at which point you can ram vehicles (an automatic strength 9 hit is not bad at all), tank shock things off of objectives or grab cheeky line breakers.

* Trukks. Yes, they're only armour 10. They're also fast, very cheap, easy to hide for the first turn and can gain obsec. Like wagons, they become low-priority targets once their passengers have left.

* Bikers. They're shooty, choppy and very hard to kill, especially if you stick a painboy in there.

* The Megaboss with da lukky stikk. Absolutely devastating for the points he costs. He is almost unkillable by non-ap2 weapons, which saves him and the boyz and leads frustrated opponents to invest ridiculous amounts of fire into trying to kill him. Then you have all of those re-rollable S10 ap2 attacks. His only weakness is in challenges against uber-characters, which, to be honest, is fair enough for his low points cost and easily remedied by sacrificing a lesser character (e.g. a mek).

* Underestimation. Because they don't have any real cheese units, opponents often underestimate them until my boyz are smashing up their expensive units or my gitz are gunning them down!

What do you guys think?

One of my friends, who has been playing 40k for as long as I have, plays Orks and he can Curb stomp anything from novices to competitive players: in small point games he almost always beats me.

From my experience it seems to be that, in small point games, Orks excel because they can take so much more than you for so much cheaper; Ork boyz in trukks are dirt cheap but with 4 (or is it 3?) attacks on the charge and furious charge they hit like a truck, as a CSM player I have found my Chaos lord has been drowned in attacks more times than I can remember 'cause the damned green skins just won't route; Ork bikerz, like all bikes, are extremely fast and have a pretty nice cover save with jink and dirt cloud(?) for a 3+ cover and once again they are dirt cheap; Ork gunlines, never before have I underestimated something so much, I once took a cc army against my Ork friend for a good old fashioned brawl but he took a gunline and drowned my cc units in 100s of shots.

At higher point games I can start taking things where, no matter how many of a unit he spams, he won't scratch me: even my Lord of Skulls will out class his Stompa in cc.

I agree with you completely, Orks aren't feeling the love at the moment but they are far from bottom tier.

I think there are 5-6 armies that are certainly better than the other ones, and then those remaining armies are basically on the same level. Many people that run the most effective armies are not great players as their lists don't need a lot of tactics and are very simple to use. So if they have the chance to play an army that requires some skills they seem lost and consider it pure garbage. Maybe tyranids and sistes are the real bottom tiers but among orks, dark eldar, astra militarum, blood angels dark angels, skitarii, mechanicus, genestealer cult and many chaos lists there's not a real winner, it mostly depends on the ability of the players involved and the dice rolling. So orks can achieve average results, they really struggle with very high format games as the most competiive units fit in a 1000 points list and we don't have an effective decurion, that helps some armies in big games.

 Blackie wrote:
I think there are 5-6 armies that are certainly better than the other ones, and then those remaining armies are basically on the same level. Many people that run the most effective armies are not great players as their lists don't need a lot of tactics and are very simple to use. So if they have the chance to play an army that requires some skills they seem lost and consider it pure garbage. Maybe tyranids and sistes are the real bottom tiers but among orks, dark eldar, astra militarum, blood angels dark angels, skitarii, mechanicus, genestealer cult and many chaos lists there's not a real winner, it mostly depends on the ability of the players involved and the dice rolling. So orks can achieve average results, they really struggle with very high format games as the most competiive units fit in a 1000 points list and we don't have an effective decurion, that helps some armies in big games.

That's.. a strange list, Sisters are about mid tier, tyranids are low, same with AM and BA, but the rest are about mid tier with the exception of Genestealer cults which is doing very well.

 mrhappyface wrote:
One of my friends, who has been playing 40k for as long as I have, plays Orks and he can Curb stomp anything from novices to competitive players: in small point games he almost always beats me.

From my experience it seems to be that, in small point games, Orks excel because they can take so much more than you for so much cheaper; Ork boyz in trukks are dirt cheap but with 4 (or is it 3?) attacks on the charge and furious charge they hit like a truck, as a CSM player I have found my Chaos lord has been drowned in attacks more times than I can remember 'cause the damned green skins just won't route; Ork bikerz, like all bikes, are extremely fast and have a pretty nice cover save with jink and dirt cloud(?) for a 3+ cover and once again they are dirt cheap; Ork gunlines, never before have I underestimated something so much, I once took a cc army against my Ork friend for a good old fashioned brawl but he took a gunline and drowned my cc units in 100s of shots.

At higher point games I can start taking things where, no matter how many of a unit he spams, he won't scratch me: even my Lord of Skulls will out class his Stompa in cc.

I agree with you completely, Orks aren't feeling the love at the moment but they are far from bottom tier.

What list did he run in low points? Did he beat Tau players even at low points? I find that really unlikely. I'm wondering myself since one of the only armies I fought was an ork player who liked low point games 1000 and under despite having way more.

 Gamgee wrote:

What list did he run in low points? Did he beat Tau players even at low points? I find that really unlikely. I'm wondering myself since one of the only armies I fought was an ork player who liked low point games 1000 and under despite having way more.

His two main lists that he runs are Boyz in Trukk spam with a Big Mek for the 4++ invul bubble and Nob Biker spam with a big mek for the 4++ bubble and dirt clouds for 3+. These are the backbone of his lists but he runs variences of them depending on whether he is going uber comp.

He has faced and beaten: Chaos Daemon, CSM, IG, AM, Necrons, Tau, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Orks, Eldar and IK, these are the ones I know he has beaten within our group or in tournaments we have entered together but he has probably beaten more that I don't know about. To be fair, he is a very good player despite how often he might slow play for his own benefit. *salt*

Orks were my first army and I remember them performing exceptionally well in non-competetive metas. Players would routinely underestimate the grotesque damage output of slugga boyz; many a SM player understandably was not prepared to watch 5 Terminators lose to 10 charging Boyz, in particular those who were introduced through the lore.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I think there are 5-6 armies that are certainly better than the other ones, and then those remaining armies are basically on the same level. Many people that run the most effective armies are not great players as their lists don't need a lot of tactics and are very simple to use. So if they have the chance to play an army that requires some skills they seem lost and consider it pure garbage. Maybe tyranids and sistes are the real bottom tiers but among orks, dark eldar, astra militarum, blood angels dark angels, skitarii, mechanicus, genestealer cult and many chaos lists there's not a real winner, it mostly depends on the ability of the players involved and the dice rolling. So orks can achieve average results, they really struggle with very high format games as the most competiive units fit in a 1000 points list and we don't have an effective decurion, that helps some armies in big games.

That's.. a strange list, Sisters are about mid tier, tyranids are low, same with AM and BA, but the rest are about mid tier with the exception of Genestealer cults which is doing very well.

Well i said tyranids are among the worst, sisters without a IK allied are really weak, gen cults are situational and random, with my orks and space wolves i won't have problems facing them, they're very good only against armies with a lot of shooty units hidden in their deployed zone. Honestly only SM, eldar and tau are really better than other armies, then Daemons, necrons and SW. The remaining ones are not as powerful as the most competitive armies, but basically i can't say orks are better than DE or AM, or dark angels better than skitarii, they're all on the same level basically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:

What list did he run in low points? Did he beat Tau players even at low points? I find that really unlikely. I'm wondering myself since one of the only armies I fought was an ork player who liked low point games 1000 and under despite having way more.

Tau in 1000 points lists are almost unbeatable only if they have 3 riptides, otherwise they're good but orks can certainly win some games against them.

Horde orks with power claws in every squad seems tough to beat and has an answer to most things I can think of. It's an army I'd love to try out but I don't think I'd have the patience to paint all of those bodies

I agree with you actually, orks ain't that bad. I think they're one of the most list dependant armies in the game.

Orks are fine, arguably even strong, from a from a fluffy bunny perspective or in games where no one is optimizing much. The problem comes around when they start going against people who care enough about winning to play / list build towards that game.

Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game. When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.

Trukks are cheap and cheerful while Battlewagons are moderately priced and decently tough. But again, against well-built armies both are apt to die to a stiff breeze. And if that stiff breeze causes them to explode (Hint: Against most top armies, it will) then they're taking half of their passengers down with them.. Before Mob Rule drags a few more down.

Ork specialists are pretty good at what they do. They're also universally rocking 6+ saves and come in fairly small unit sizes, whilst not being cheap on points. Their transports can be easily popped by anti tank, putting on a decent amount of woods, and then you can safely lasgun / bolter the survivors down in a single turn.

The only things which Orks still have going for them are green tide and MSU spam. Given a unit of trukk boyz can clock in at around 100 points, and green tide is hard to shift once it starts locking itself in combat, these are decent tricks. They're just, sadly, the only tricks Orks have. And against competitive armies, they're weak tricks.

I'm only to disagree with the battlewagon. I find it a really point inefficent bus. The high armor helps, but the cost to make it shooty sucks. Because of that, you can only take so many and then it becomes a fat target. Fearless boys and a rocking deff rolla used to make them awesome. It's also too bad that you can't take any of the upgraded mek guns on them. If that was the case, they d actually be worth it

This thread desperately needs a voice of reason, before someone considering to start an ork army might get weird the idea that they are actually good.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game.

Nope they aren't they are horrible.
-Dirt Slow.
-Are one of the only troop options in the game with LD issues.
-Have almost no good wargear options.
-They are overpriced.for their durability

When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.

and for their close combat prowess. -> Just look at genestealer hybrids.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:
with a Big Mek for the 4++ invul bubble and Nob Biker spam with a big mek for the 4++ bubble

You know that a Big mek on a bike + the MEGA kustom force field + 3 nobz on bikes costs 270 points before weapon upgrades, and that he can't pull this trick off on foot in a trukk since the field doesn't extend beyond the inside of a transport right. What sane ork player would spend 270 points a HQ in a low points game ?
On top that you can only field him in a Waaaagh ghazzz detachment and those aren't without their serious downsides, such as unwieldy detachments, having to accept challenges and a serious nerf of the mob rule.

 oldzoggy wrote:
This thread desperately needs a voice of reason, before anyone might just get the idea that they are actually good.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game.

Nope they aren't they are horrible.
-Dirt Slow.
-Are one of the only troop options in the game with LD issues.
-Have almost no good wargear options.
-They are overpriced.for their durability

When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.

and for their close combat prowess. -> Just look at genestealer hybrids.

Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.

 mrhappyface wrote:
with a Big Mek for the 4++ invul bubble and Nob Biker spam with a big mek for the 4++ bubble

You know that a Big mek on a bike + the MEGA kustom force field costs 135 points before any weapon upgrade right...
And that you can only field him in a Waaaagh ghazzz detachment and those aren't without their serious downsides that I would not want to have in a low point game.

I'm not telling you that 'In theory, if you take a big mek with the MKFF Orks are good', I am telling you this is what my friend takes and he can give top tier armies a good run around.

This thread is proof that there is such thing as a wrong opinion.

This thread is proof that there is such thing as a wrong opinion.

I don't think you can prove that.

 warhead01 wrote:

This thread is proof that there is such thing as a wrong opinion.

I don't think you can prove that.

Competitive viability isn't that hard to get a general idea of, tho.

In summary, Orks are a fun casual army that stands a chance in even and not focused cheese lists.

Competitively, it's a heavy rock to push up the hill at times.

To be fair, you're not an Ork player if you don't rely on sheer odd luck the majority of the time. That's half the fun,

Rosebuddy wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

This thread is proof that there is such thing as a wrong opinion.

I don't think you can prove that.

Competitive viability isn't that hard to get a general idea of, tho.

And yet Orks are considered bottom tier in the wider meta when, in reality, they are just a lower mid tier army that GW has neglected for a while

 morganfreeman wrote:
Orks are fine, arguably even strong, from a from a fluffy bunny perspective or in games where no one is optimizing much. The problem comes around when they start going against people who care enough about winning to play / list build towards that game.

Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game. When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.

Trukks are cheap and cheerful while Battlewagons are moderately priced and decently tough. But again, against well-built armies both are apt to die to a stiff breeze. And if that stiff breeze causes them to explode (Hint: Against most top armies, it will) then they're taking half of their passengers down with them.. Before Mob Rule drags a few more down.

Ork specialists are pretty good at what they do. They're also universally rocking 6+ saves and come in fairly small unit sizes, whilst not being cheap on points. Their transports can be easily popped by anti tank, putting on a decent amount of woods, and then you can safely lasgun / bolter the survivors down in a single turn.

The only things which Orks still have going for them are green tide and MSU spam. Given a unit of trukk boyz can clock in at around 100 points, and green tide is hard to shift once it starts locking itself in combat, these are decent tricks. They're just, sadly, the only tricks Orks have. And against competitive armies, they're weak tricks.

I have beaten several cheese builds from the competitive players at my club (the guys who go to and win tournaments). This has included skyhammer, necron decurion and tau. Even when I've lost to Tau I've done a lot of damage and it's been far from a walkover for my opponent. The things they say they don't like are the amount of armour 14 on the board, bikes with painboyz and the megaboss with lukky stikk soaking up all of their supporting fire overwatch. I don't find that my wagons get "easily popped" when I've brought that many, either.

Please note I'm not saying I'm an amazing player or that Orks are the best army, I'm just saying I can hang.

 OrkaMorka wrote:
I'm only to disagree with the battlewagon. I find it a really point inefficent bus. The high armor helps, but the cost to make it shooty sucks. Because of that, you can only take so many and then it becomes a fat target. Fearless boys and a rocking deff rolla used to make them awesome. It's also too bad that you can't take any of the upgraded mek guns on them. If that was the case, they d actually be worth it

See I just wouldn't bother making it shooty unless I had flash gitz in it, in which case the killkannon gels with them well. A single big shoota to defend against immobilised results is all I bother with for anything else.

Warbikers are as good as any bike in the game.

For what i have seen, and fought against, Orks seem to do a lot better when you run them as a swarm army, just a gak ton of boyz and then just overwhelm them with numbers.

That said, one 1850 list i saw that i kninda wanna run is 30 boyz, 15 armored mekanobz, 5 battle waggons, and i think it was gazgrimskull. The whole army gets to scout so the whole army is half way across the board before turn one.

I laugh at the notion of any Necron list saying they have trouble with Battlewagons and Ork Bosses.

MSU orks are filthy and really only countered by msu marines. (Funny enough.)

But no one on dakka actually play 40k, they just like to put armies into tiers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I laugh at the notion of any Necron list saying they have trouble with Battlewagons and Ork Bosses.

I must be imagining things then

 Krusha wrote:

 OrkaMorka wrote:
I'm only to disagree with the battlewagon. I find it a really point inefficent bus. The high armor helps, but the cost to make it shooty sucks. Because of that, you can only take so many and then it becomes a fat target. Fearless boys and a rocking deff rolla used to make them awesome. It's also too bad that you can't take any of the upgraded mek guns on them. If that was the case, they d actually be worth it

See I just wouldn't bother making it shooty unless I had flash gitz in it, in which case the killkannon gels with them well. A single big shoota to defend against immobilised results is all I bother with for anything else.

But then it's finding a purpose to have flash gitz.

 Krusha wrote:


I have beaten several cheese builds from the competitive players at my club (the guys who go to and win tournaments). This has included skyhammer, necron decurion and tau. Even when I've lost to Tau I've done a lot of damage and it's been far from a walkover for my opponent. The things they say they don't like are the amount of armour 14 on the board, bikes with painboyz and the megaboss with lukky stikk soaking up all of their supporting fire overwatch. I don't find that my wagons get "easily popped" when I've brought that many, either.

Please note I'm not saying I'm an amazing player or that Orks are the best army, I'm just saying I can hang.

I.

Er.

Necrons saying they don't like the amount of armor 14 on the board? Tau having problems with bikers? The basic necron gun has grav-light when it comes to vehicles, and their CC units come bog-standard with high attacks, good strength, and rending. Tau basically invalidate cover as a rule.

Again, Orks aren't the worst army out there (non-flyrant spam nids, foot guard, baseline CSM) and actually have some lists / units which can do fine in a fluffy / moderately competitive environment. I really have to question the competency of your tournament players / tournament scene from what you've said, because those armies shouldn't having those problems when it comes to orks.

I'll address the Tau and Necron bits separately to make it easier for me

 morganfreeman wrote:
Er.

Necrons saying they don't like the amount of armor 14 on the board?
...
The basic necron gun has grav-light when it comes to vehicles...

Yes, but they've got to get into rapid-fire range to pose a serious threat to my vehicles, which also puts them in charge range and uses up firepower that could have been used to kill the boyz once they got out. They tend to prioritise the boss' wagon, so I position him so as to soak up further fire that comes the squad's way. My wagons are there to get my boyz into combat, survival after that is just a bonus.

and their CC units come bog-standard with high attacks, good strength, and rending.

You are making it sound like all necron units come with these rules and actually they don't. You also appear to be assuming that I (the player with more mobility and thus choice of targets) will always have to pit my melee units against his melee units - if Ork players in your area play like that then yes I can see why you get a bad impression.

Flayed ones do actually concern me due to weight of dice, so I simply avoid them and/or shoot them. If I have to get into combat with them I do at least do fair damage due to striking at the same time.

Other necron melee units are designed for anti-elite duties and their weapons are wasted on mere boyz.

Tau having problems with bikers? Tau basically invalidate cover as a rule.

And T5, and feel no pain (if I stick a painboy in there), and 4+ armour that I can still use against smart missiles, and my own firepower coming from the bikers, and the rest of my army getting on top of him at the same time.

Why would any Necron Warrior care about being in rapid fire range? They'll pass through 75% of any wounds you manage to do on the charge. Then the boys will be tarpitted forever.

I think the biggest 'wider meta' problem orks face is how the 'wider meta' bias towards 2 hour games.

So many battle reports I see "blah blasted my stuff turns 1, 2 and 3. I almost got my foot sloggers in to position and it looked like the battle was going to turn my way but the store was closing/the bus was due/the round was called so instead I took a loss".

When I was an active whfb player the armies I'd take to a store were radically different to house play. Time and baggage constraints are much more relaxed when you can leave an army and books at a friends house or vice versa.

If instead of an in/out job at the local store/club/tourney round you play beer/pretzel or tea/cake hammer at a friends house slow play armies are more attractive as you hope to spend a whole evening having fun.