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Hey guys. So with our new lord and saviour Belisarius Cawl, my goal for this years tournament season is to play CM/Skitarii. While I have my core choices for the list, I am struggling on how to maximize the usuabilty of my Skitarii Force.
Since this is for the german tournament circuit, only 2 factions and 3 detachments are allowed, no doubles.

Lets start with the core of the Force:

Cult Mechanicus CAD

HQ
Belisarius Cawl
Techpriest Dominus, Conversion Field, Memento Morispex

Troops
3 Kataphron Destroyer, Heavy Grav-Cannon, Cognis Flamer
3 Kataphron Destroyer, Heavy Grav-Cannon, Cognis Flamer
3 Kataphron Destroyer, Plasma Culverin, Cognis Flamer
3 Kataphron Destroyer, Plasma Culverin, Cognis Flamer

Fortification
Imperial Bunker, Escape Hatch


Cult Mechanicus Enginseer Congregation
HQ
Tech-Priest Enginseer

Elite
2 Servitors, 2 x Plasma Cannon

So, we got 8 CM units to get maximum canticles and this leaves me with 580 points to spend on Skitarii. Which I really want to spend. Its easy to just use a cohort cybernetica and call it a day but I really would love to use Skitarii.
Since I've played a lot of War Convocation (so, a Skitarii Battle Maniple), the clear downsides for my list is "no stealth & shrouded" which makes my flimsy t3 models extremely vulnerable. I could go the route of maximizing walkers to use Cawls Canticles, i.e. Dragoons and Dunecrawler. Or go an elite route with ruststalkers and infiltrators. The third option would be mass MSU and drown the enemy in rangers and vanguards. Since every tournament only plays 1 Killpoints mission, this could work out. I could also use a Battle Maniple which gives me walking cover (Dunecrawler/Dragoon).
What I would like to know is how one should field their forces against threats such as scat packs and what would work the best with my core choice.

cheers

Not that I care for Plasmas on the destroyers but have you considered the Haemotrope Reactor's with all that plasma? It makes all those small blasts large blasts if your plasma is near by.

You are absolutely correct. I have considered them, same with the pipelines for torrent flamer. But using one of those fortifications means that I'll stay at the back of board with my obsec units...and I am not that sure if I want to do that. The Haemothropes would be nice with the servitors though. 36" large Plasma blast ^^

Crawl cannot purchase a relic. Rangers with triple arquebus and the sky fire Relic would be a good place to start it's decent anti-air and stwrong vs flying monsters creatures then maybe a small unit of Vanguard with Arc and some doing Crawlers for long-range Firepower.

True, but I dont think I mentioned that anywhere. Nonethless, the Arquebus skyfire idea is pretty cool.
Another idea was to take a Vanguard unit of 10, 3 plasma and omnispex and join Cawl. He can scout with them, stealth&shroud them and give them fearless. Plus tank insane ammounts of dakka to get that unit where it belongs.
THe engineseer can be used the same way. Maybe in a unit of infiltrators (though without dunestrider keeping up could be difficult).

A moderately sized unit of infiltrators with Crawl or a magos would be solid aswell even if they have to deploy normally you can sling shot them out of the bunker with the escape hatch and the +3 inches helps crawl get in there, dont forget the mask relic on the Infiltrators for zelot. Another options are the forgeworld SECUTARII PELTASTS. I think you have ap2 covered and plasma in vanguard is pricey. Perhaps keep vanguard stock or with arc to counter tanks, also consider a Hemothrope generator in the skatarii list.

Vanguard with Plasma are not viable outside of WarCon. The Calivers are only good because they don't get hot and because they are free. 12 radium carbine shots from 4 bodies beats 3 plasma shots from 1 body against toughness models. Especially high toughness models like wraithknights. The plasma will be better against armor value targets ... but who is afraid of AV these days?

Peltasts are great for their points. Naked vanguard are great for their points. Blinged Skitarri is for WarCon.

Okay that does sound good, esp. the hints on the Plasma. Those wounds would be AP2 though...but I see what you mean. A 10 man Vanguard Squad with plasmas and omnispex is easily as point heavy as infiltrators. Plus, some melee would be nice.
Since I played War Con up until now, I always used a lot of plasma on my skitarii. But, for the tournament circuit only 2 factions are allowed so Convo is out as well.
Forgeworld is not allowed, so I have to go with the codex.
So what I got now is 5 Infiltrators (flachette) with omniscient mask, 5 rangers with 2 Arquebus (nice pseudo skyfire but not completely sold on that one), 5 vanguard with 2 Arc Rifles (not so sure about them yet), 2 x 5 Vanguard stock. A Haemothrope reactor...I think about this all the time but I am still not completely sold.
I was thinking about a Dragoon to get some nice moveable cover with me. Might work out great but points are limited as you know. And i really need those Flamers on the Destroyers...the Phosphor Blasters are just so underwhelming.

If I couldn't run a WarCon, and I wanted to run units from my shelf, I would run this. I think plasma small blasts on a BS3 platform that gets hot is a bad deal and always worse than grav. A good demons player will spread his troops so the small blasts fail. The Memento Mori is your clutch AA. The Vanguard are for sure all going to die, so scout them up forwards and try to get them shooting first. Run the Onagers up point blank for more damage and tanking with AV12 and a 4++. Bounce the Dominus around as needed for Memento Mori. I am an avid WarCon player and I swear, I have never seen Sicarians make their points back. Infilitrators are the better ones, but damn are they still terrible for 185 points. Give me 20 Vanguard any day of the week.

1850 points

Cult Mech CAD (1130)
200 - Cawl as HQ
145 - Dominus with Memento Mori(30) + Conversion(10)
20 - Servitors (hide behind bunker)
20 - Servitors (hide behind bunker)
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
165 - Kataphrons Grav/Phos
150 - Breachers Haywire (for AV fliers)
80 - Bunker with escape hatch

Skitarri Maniple (720)
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
135 - 3 Lance Dragoons
285 - 3 Eradication/Stubber Onagers

That is a nice idea. I do think that more Dragoons and Dunecrawlers would be great. Why are you going for 30 men vanguard "blobs" instead of 6x5 man?
I do not like Breachers at all. Those Haywire guns are just underwhelming in every scenario, even if Id use them for anti flyer. 1 Grav 6 that doesn't get saved is all one need.
Infiltrator worked insanely good for me up until now. They are destroying pretty much anything in CC. They are a huge thread with which the enemy has to deal before they can get into charge range.
I do like me some Plasma, especially on the Kataphrons. Those templates are doing a great job, esp against targets with a 4+, since we don't have grav amp. But you might be right that 6 Plasma dudes are a bit much.
It is certainly a very different kind of list compared to my, nonetheless it is one I will definitely try. Cheers.

Edit: Playing that many Walkers, it might be a good idea to use the Grand Convocation Detachment for Cult Mechanicus to get PotMS and IWND for the vehicles. Allthough getting those Servitors into the list to bump canticles is not possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cult Mechanicus: COmbined Arms Detachement - 1110

*************** 2 HQ ***************

Belisarius Cawl
- - - > 200

Tech-Priest Dominus
- Volkite-Blaster
- Makropistol
- Converterfield
- Memento Morispex
- - - > 140


*************** 4 Standard ***************

3 Kataphron Destroyers
- 3 x Plasma-Calverine
- 1 x Phosphorblaster
- 2 x Cognis-Flamer
- - - > 175

3 Kataphron Destroyers
- 3 x Plasma-Calverine
- 1 x Phosphorblaster
- 2 x Cognis-Flamer
- - - > 175

3 Kataphron Destroyers
- 3 x Heavy Grav Cannon
- 1 x Phosphorblaster
- 2 x Cognis-Flamer
- - - > 175

3 Kataphron Destroyers
- 3 x Heavy Grav Cannon
- 1 x Phosphorblaster
- 2 x Cognis-Flamer
- - - > 175

*************** 1 Fortification ***************

Imperial Bunker
- Escape Hatch
- - - > 80

Skitarii: Skitarii Maniple - 625

*************** 1 Elite ***************

5 Sicarian Infiltrators
- Flechetteblaster and Taser
+ Infiltrator Princeps
- Converterfield
- Mask of Omnissiance
- - - > 215


*************** 6 Standard ***************

5 Skitarii Rangers
- Omnispex
- 2 x Transuranic Arquebus
+ Ranger Alpha
- Galvanic Rifle
- - - > 125

5 Skitarii Rangers
+ Ranger Alpha
- Galvanic Rifle
- - - > 65

5 Skitarii Vanguard
+ Vanguard Alpha
- Radium-Carabine
- - - > 55

5 Skitarii Vanguard
+ Vanguard Alpha
- Radium-Carabine
- - - > 55

5 Skitarii Vanguard
+ Vanguard Alpha
- Radium-Carabine
- - - > 55

5 Skitarii Vanguard
+ Vanguard Alpha
- Radium-Carabine
- - - > 55

Imperial Agents: Formation - 100

*************** 1 HQ ***************

Tech-Priest Enginseer
- - - > 40


*************** 1 Elite ***************

2 Servitors
- 2 x Plasmacannon
- - - > 60


1850


ok. Tomorrow I will give this a go. First game is against Genestealers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good thing is, this list can easily switch infiltrators and one vanguard unit for 3 dunecrawlers, which will be the next approach.

I don't actually run breachers, but I figured you wanted that 8th cult mech unit and that fills a hole. Arc rifles on Skitarri are broadly superior to breachers. 10 man units are half the kill points. If you have a lot of kill points in your tourney then blobs are better.

oh allright, well for that 8th CotO unit I got the Enginseer plus the servitors. If more CotO units are needed, one can always add single servitors.
Yeah, regarding killpoints it makes a lot of sense, despite that i am more for smaller units, but: taking a 10 man vanguard unit with the Saint Curias Autopurger would make a great roadblock.

scratch the last one. After doing some mathhammer that thing is not worth 25 points. I will, however, take a unit of 10 Vanguards. I need something against flying demon princess and i figured that 30 shots with Skyfire would make a great impact.

So, final score against Genestealer Cult was an 8:7, so a draw. He was playing all the good stuff, first curse, uprising plus a leman russ and 2 chimearas and a Scout Sentinel. I got to say, again, these rangers just suck. 6 shots with the arquebus, yet I got 1 glance of it. I dont know anymore. Are there any armies one can play against where there guys shine?
Anyways, The infiltrators are badass as expected, allthough i basically fed them to my enemy, they managed to cause havoc. I played Cawl way to defensively he didnt do anything the whole game but sitting in a bunker and accompanying a couple of destroyers.
So: The rangers are more than ever a huge question mark. The Infiltrator are kicking ass, as they should do. Kicking out the rangers would open up the chance to take 2 dunecrawlers, which I am thinking about.

New list idea incoming. With all those demon and CSM players out there, i thought about the following:

Cult Mech CAD (1120)
200 - Cawl as HQ
140 - Dominus with Memento Mori(30) + Conversion(5)
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Plasma/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Plasma/1 phos + 2 flamers
80 - Bunker with escape hatch

Enginseer Congregation (50)
Tech-Priest Enginseer
1 Servitor

Skitarri Maniple (720)
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
105 - 10 Vanguard (Arkhans Divinator)
260 - 2 Icarus Array/Stubber Onagers

So i got 15 points left but I think this is a pretty hefty list. Have to think about how to get through a Battle Company in time, therefore i might shrink one of the vanguard blobs and get everysone a couple of arc rifles. thoughts?

The Rangers with the tank rifle is for killing low armor targets and transports while sitting on a objective or sniping out heavy weapons or characters in Marine equivalent units don't try to shoot it armor above 12 unless there's nothing else to shoot at. 3 with the skyfire / tank hunter relic was suggested for the rerolls on their armor bane. They shine vs mc and flyer hunting with the relic and can reliably pop a transport in 2 turns anywhere on the table with the rerolls from the relic. 2 without the relic for rerolls is gonna be pot shots with low % returns. They need the scryer skull or the multi relic to be consistent.

Iago40k wrote:
New list idea incoming. With all those demon and CSM players out there, i thought about the following:

Cult Mech CAD (1120)
200 - Cawl as HQ
140 - Dominus with Memento Mori(30) + Conversion(5)
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Plasma/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Plasma/1 phos + 2 flamers
80 - Bunker with escape hatch

Enginseer Congregation (50)
Tech-Priest Enginseer
1 Servitor

Skitarri Maniple (720)
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
105 - 10 Vanguard (Arkhans Divinator)
260 - 2 Icarus Array/Stubber Onagers

So i got 15 points left but I think this is a pretty hefty list. Have to think about how to get through a Battle Company in time, therefore i might shrink one of the vanguard blobs and get everysone a couple of arc rifles. thoughts?

I like this list. Many mans, not too many toys. I wish I had that many naked vanguard painted. At least they are cheap models.

Wulfey wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
New list idea incoming. With all those demon and CSM players out there, i thought about the following:

Cult Mech CAD (1120)
200 - Cawl as HQ
140 - Dominus with Memento Mori(30) + Conversion(5)
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Grav/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Plasma/1 phos + 2 flamers
175 - Kataphrons Plasma/1 phos + 2 flamers
80 - Bunker with escape hatch

Enginseer Congregation (50)
Tech-Priest Enginseer
1 Servitor

Skitarri Maniple (720)
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
100 - 10 Vanguard
105 - 10 Vanguard (Arkhans Divinator)
260 - 2 Icarus Array/Stubber Onagers

So i got 15 points left but I think this is a pretty hefty list. Have to think about how to get through a Battle Company in time, therefore i might shrink one of the vanguard blobs and get everysone a couple of arc rifles. thoughts?

I like this list. Many mans, not too many toys. I wish I had that many naked vanguard painted. At least they are cheap models.

Thanks mate. The only thing to switch atm is 5 rangers (2 Arquebusses, Omnispex and Arkhans Divinator) for 10 vanguards and a couple of flamers. Should work as well. Azeroth133 made a good argument for that sniping unit. All in all this should be enough anti-air and against vehicles. Deathstars could be a problem though, its all about screening and feeding units.

That list is nicely tailored to next month's ITC meta. The GW FAQ on knights (90 + 90 fire arcs with a blindspot) really makes knights less attractive. And Vanguard style firepower is great against unarmored daemon hordes. Those 40 vanguard are less points than the soon-to-be-cross-eyed Knight Crusader in a WarCon.

Well I hope it will work in our meta as well since we don't play ITC but a national tournament circuit with similar but not identical rules. 2 factions and max 3 detachements. But you are very right, the new kight arcs are just aweful...

Maybe I need to spend 10 more points for an omnispex on one of the Vanguards Squads. If Cawl is joining them, -1 on cover saves for his atomiser is huuuuge.

If you are at 1850pts, you might be able to take a War Convocation and an allied Detachment with Cawl and one unit of Kataphron Destroyer? Just remember the Techpriest in the War Convocation be a normal one, and you take the Memento relic for free

Neophyte2012 wrote:
If you are at 1850pts, you might be able to take a War Convocation and an allied Detachment with Cawl and one unit of Kataphron Destroyer? Just remember the Techpriest in the War Convocation be a normal one, and you take the Memento relic for free

nah, can't take War Convocation. Restrictments are 2 Factions and 3 Detachement. That damn Knight ruins everything

Had a nice test game yesterday with my list from above sans 10 vanguards and plus 5 rangers with omnispex, 2 arquebus and arkhans divinator...save to say that those rangers sucked again...but well, i give them another try.
One thing they did well was rerolling for a mysterious objective...they turned a "nothing of note" to "skyfire". Well well, Kairos did not like that at all when 10 vanguards got to that marker and opened fire.
So, demons are extremely strong but i got to say, with my list I feel comfortable playing against them. The amount of skyfire that is in the list combined with the possibillites of additional skyfire from markers (we had 2 skyfire markers, of of them was in the center of the board) is just so good. We called it in turn 4 against that new flying monstrous circus (magnus, kairos, LoC, daemonprince) we can stand a chance if maelstrom is on our side...as long as we got turn 1 But its important to note that it was the first game with demons for my opponent. Rrally looking forward to test more though. tournaments are full of magnus these days.

Doesn't the Enginseer Congregation violate your 2 Faction requirement?

nope. The formation is from the imperial agents book, enginseer and servitors are faction cult mechanicus.

So what do you guys think: Atm I am thinking about swapping the rangers cause they are really point heavy. I will take the Divinator in one of the vanguard squads though. Now, the thinking behind them switching out is to get some invul saves on my vanguard and some anti rhino/droppod shooting. There are a lot of gravcent drops with hunters eye and I really don't want to give up one of my units that easy. It would be possible to take another tech priest dominus (by switching out the CAD for that Cadia FoC), but I think a couple of conversion fields should do the trick. So the question is: What to take for anti-tank/anti BC and to save my guys from cover ignoring grav. I got 130 pts to spend

For anti vehicle:
plasma/arc rifles on the vanguard
or
dragoons, to assault armor with 4+ str 8 attacks.

for a 1x 3++:
Conversion field + Omnissiah's grace

Another option is putting in Cotez to allow you to fire at gravcents drops.

can't take COteaz, only 2 factions allowed. but a combination of conversion field and omnissiahs grace is great. At least 1 unit would be kind of save. I am thinking about a skyshield landing pad. The con is that it would make the vanguard at least for turn 1 very static which would suck because they are the ones that sholuld run the field down.

conversion field on every vanguard unit plus 1 omnissiahs grace and 2 Dragoons would do the trick. seems pretty nice for an exchange of 1 5 man ranger unit. Id really like to take the skyshield but with all the pros there is a big con: it slows the skitarii down in a huge way and those are my mobill forces. But its possible to get every vanguard alpha a refractor field, taking a dragoon and a skyshield landing pad for the kicked out rangers. that could work great. dunecrawler on the pad with a 3++..delicious^^

So, played against a Ultramarines Battle Company yesterday with the following list


Cult Mech CAD (1100)
200 - Cawl as HQ
140 - Dominus with Memento Mori(30) + Conversion(5)
170 - Kataphrons Grav/2 phos + 1 flamer
170 - Kataphrons Grav/2 phos + 1 flamer
170 - Kataphrons Plasma/2 phos + 1 flamer
170 - Kataphrons Plasma/2 phos + 1 flamer
80 - Bunker with escape hatch

Enginseer Congregation (50)
Tech-Priest Enginseer
1 Servitor

Skitarri Maniple (700)
105 - 10 Vanguard Refractor
105 - 10 Vanguard Refractor
110 - 10 Vanguard Refractor, Arkhans Divinator
45 - Sydonian Dragoon
260 - 2 Icarus Array/Stubber Onagers
75 - Skyshield Landing Pad

He was running a kitted out battle company with 5 pods, couple of Razorbacks and Rhinos. 4 Grav Devs in a pod with cataphractii terminator as his warlord and a knight with gatling cannon and D-sword.
Without going into to many details: My list works, although it really lacks in the "lets open up the metal bawkes" department. Field control was also a problem since he blew up my bunker with a melta drop first turn. Lost 2 Grav Devs on the explosion -.-
I won the game 12:8 although most of my army underperformed, especially the plasma destroyers. 7 out of 12 wounds were taken due to "gets hot". One round was particularly nerve wrecking were 10 out 12 rolls got hot...holy hell!
3 times 10 vanguard is a little too much. 1 x 10 and 4 x 5 should be the better way to go since i barely made it out of my deployment zone. everything got stuck in ruins with one vanguard blob moving 4 inches in the first 3 movement phases...

Both Dunecrawler were absolutely useless since there were no flyers and in 5 rounds of shooting they did no wounds. Were standing on the skyshield the whole time. Looking back, I should have moved them upfield so that they have some impact.

Okay, so what I am thinking about is adding an arc rifle to 2 of the 5 man units for having the chance to blow up vehciles and kill the unit that is inside with another 5 man unit. Since most tournaments only play one killpoint mission throughout the tournament this should not be much of a trade off.

So what you think, how should I try to get more anti-vehicle and a little more board presence to harass the opponent in his zone?